urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

I don’t think it’s dire to a point where cardinals or any developer would not proceed with a project.  Cardinals are literally not going anywhere and the only option for them is to keep investing and building to push along their current assets.  I think people in the development business understand all of this is a void being filled by Covid canceling sports and events downtown and it goes away when those come back

I moved back to STL in Jan 18'.  This underage party activity has definitely been happening for the last three summers in the area of White Castle and Taco Bell.  For 19 years prior to that time, I cannot say.  I agree the crowds are larger now compared to the summers of '18 or '19.   Your scenario; we just hope less formidable crowd sizes return and call that acceptable.  Can't agree with you.  I actually feel this area has become a "relief valve" for the police to move cruisers off Wash Ave, Landing and Riverfront.  Simply moving the problem instead of solving it.  I have an option;  close down the White Castle and Taco Bell as public nuisances or at least mandate a closing time same as curfew.  I can only imagine the number of police calls generated at both businesses.  Park patrol cars in the Fuelman and other nearby empty lots before cruisers arrive on Fridays and Saturdays.  Do something to stop the gatherings before they build to uncontrollable levels.  If these gatherings are allowed to continue, more incidents will follow and the near southside of DT will be stigmatized.    

STLinCHI wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

This is concerning:
https://www.kmov.com/news/watch-video-s ... 3d5d4.html

Residents of Wash Ave, what are you seeing every weekend?  Do you feel unsafe?  

My top complaints as a wash ave resident:
1) Excessively loud car, motorcycle, and ATV engines
2) Cars with actual train horns installed in them
3) Motorcycles that blast music
4) we need more shopping options
5) KMOV articles about how "dangerous" downtown is

aprice wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

STLinCHI wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

This is concerning:
https://www.kmov.com/news/watch-video-s ... 3d5d4.html

Residents of Wash Ave, what are you seeing every weekend?  Do you feel unsafe?  

My top complaints as a wash ave resident:
1) Excessively loud car, motorcycle, and ATV engines
2) Cars with actual train horns installed in them
3) Motorcycles that blast music
4) we need more shopping options
5) KMOV articles about how "dangerous" downtown is

So, mass media clearly profits off of fear and the sky-is-falling stories, however, IMHO, if they turned a blind eye to legitimate safety issues as KMOV documented in this story, I feel like they'd be doing a disservice to the community.  Personally, if there's random gunfire occurring in an area I regularly visit, I'd prefer to be aware of it.  And I think if there's regular issues like this happening in the center of the city; the face of our city we present to the world, the entire region should be made aware of it.

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Aug 17, 2020

Personally, if there's random gunfire occurring in an area I regularly visit, I'd prefer to be aware of it.  And I think if there's regular issues like this happening in the center of the city; the face of our city we present to the world, the entire region should be made aware of it.

Okay, I get it but what's it going to change? Are the 15k ppl that live downtown going to avoid dinner at the Midwestern because of this (COVID aside)? I can tell you from 5 years of first hand experience, no. Even the less progressive ones. Does KMOV report on every car crash in the St. Louis region? Do they report on every gun shot in the city? Do they report on every heart disease death in the region? No, people die from car crashes and heart disease all the time. Gun shots on the front doorstep of Busch Stadium? It's raining clicks. And I'm not really criticizing KMOV here. Yeah, they profit from taking giant shits on the city but I blame the suburban residents that sh*t on the city even more. 9 times out of 10, it's full blown racism. (If we really want to get into the weeds, I blame 70 years of car-centric federal transportation policy).

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Aug 17, 2020

aprice wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

STLinCHI wrote: ↑

Aug 16, 2020

Residents of Wash Ave, what are you seeing every weekend?  Do you feel unsafe?  

My top complaints as a wash ave resident:
1) Excessively loud car, motorcycle, and ATV engines
2) Cars with actual train horns installed in them
3) Motorcycles that blast music
4) we need more shopping options
5) KMOV articles about how "dangerous" downtown is

So, mass media clearly profits off of fear and the sky-is-falling stories, however, IMHO, if they turned a blind eye to legitimate safety issues as KMOV documented in this story, I feel like they'd be doing a disservice to the community.  Personally, if there's random gunfire occurring in an area I regularly visit, I'd prefer to be aware of it.  And I think if there's regular issues like this happening in the center of the city; the face of our city we present to the world, the entire region should be made aware of it.

Perhaps this has just been a bad weekend, but the gunfire has been insane all over Downtown (IMO).  In addition to what KMOV reported on, there was sustained gunfire (it sounded automatic due to the rate of fire, but who knows) from multiple guns late Friday night around 1ish near 11th and Wash.  Five to ten minutes later, there were 5-10 shots from the other side of Tucker (maybe near 13th?).  What is incredible to me is that all this occurred with a noticeable police presence at Tucker and Washington.  There were at least two cop cars already there that had traffic closed off onto Washington at Tucker when it happened.  I don't think anyone was hit since there was no story about it in the news, but who knows if the shooter(s) were attempting to kill someone.  Could have been similar to what someone did in June when a shooter was just driving down Washington and blatantly firing into the air.  Both of these events resulted in people screaming and running to their cars before racing off in fear of their lives.  It's pretty unnerving to watch it happen from your living room, not gonna lie.

Then the shooting by the security guard at the Shell station Saturday makes it two nights in a row that there was been gunfire in the same relative area.  This is all in addition to the off duty police officer injured in the surface lots on Convention, someone actually shot and injured on Washington in June, the shooting at City Garden in July, and so on.

I get that these are extenuating circumstances for the country as a whole and many communities are dealing with an increase in general crime.  Many people are out of work and frustrated at numerous things right now.  Hopefully, when things go back to "normal", the violence and lawlessness will dissipate.  Regardless, I do not think that this is healthy for Downtown.  Posters on Nextdoor can absolutely be melodramatic, but I get the feeling that a lot of the concerns being raised by people on there are not fringe beliefs.  I imagine most people have limits for how often they are willing to hear gunfire (or have cars burning out, racing, etc.) outside their windows and in their neighborhood before throwing in the towel.  I know I do.  If local residents are put off by what is happening right now, how are people coming in for conventions and competitions at the convention center going to react?

I've lived Downtown for over three years now and mostly loved the overwhelming majority of it.  With that being said, I've found myself increasingly considering not renewing my lease next year and moving to a different neighborhood.  I know that crime happens everywhere and it is not uncommon to hear gunfire anywhere in the city, but Downtown feels like it's on a whole different level right now.

Car crash last night.

https://www.kmov.com/news/woman-killed- ... ecb97.html

Just watching the news, said the car must have been going 100 MPH.  Just ***** ridiculous.

When it comes to cruising and street racing, you have to keep in mind that the city is trying to battle an entire car culture here. Our scene is pretty similar to what you can find in Detroit. I thought this little video was an informative look into the other side: Detroit's Illegal Car Meets.

For better or worse, these will continue. I would think STL should try to lean into this a bit instead of fighting it. Set up a designated area(s) where these fellas can have their fun on the weekends without worrying about getting busted or bothering residents. Perhaps somewhere on the north riverfront like in the old days.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Aug 17, 2020

When it comes to cruising and street racing, you have to keep in mind that the city is trying to battle an entire car culture here. Our scene is pretty similar to what you can find in Detroit. I thought this little video was an informative look into the other side: Detroit's Illegal Car Meets.

For better or worse, these will continue. I would think STL should try to lean into this a bit instead of fighting it. Set up a designated area(s) where these fellas can have their fun on the weekends without worrying about getting busted or bothering residents. Perhaps somewhere on the north riverfront like in the old days.

There is a race track a bridge and a mile away that has been providing that for many years now.  In my opinion, you fight it and fight it hard.  You need to show the region that it will not be tolerated and in the process you will also flush out a lot of illegal guns and drugs by simply enforcing traffic laws. 

^ Gateway costs money, you need to pass tech inspection, license, registration, maybe insurance, SNELL rated helmet.  It's been a long time since I've been.  But I imagine that's already a deterrent.

Add to that these folks get to look super sweet racing down Washington Avenue, and there's little to no incentive.

Back when it was mostly just Hall Street, it was fine, but also super dangerous with all of the 18 wheeler traffic.  But even then you had cops occasionally coming through the night to clear things out to where it would shift to Broadway, and then back to Hall.

The answer does need to be enforcement.  No one is going to open a no-holds-barred free automotive fun park for these turds.  Chasing them isn't the right tactic obviously.  But I surely hope the police department can wrap their heads around an enforcement plan that is more elaborate.  Who knows how many illegal guns and drugs are out there too.  Idiots think they're in Fast and the Furious/Need for Speed and clearly have no idea of the implications of driving like complete morons.

And to be clear, there are two ends of the car culture spectrum.  There are the folks who pick safe spots out in the County and then there are the loud, gaudy, slow but shiny, attention deprived idiots who are giving the whole scene a bad name.  About on par with the stunt bikers, and just the same as the ATV crowd.  The cops need to enforce it.  If there's anything they are fully competent at, and can actually respond to, and be proactive in, it's gotta be traffic enforcement.

Stltoday - As crime surged, the hub of St. Louis, its downtown, seen as increasingly lawless

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... 8f23b.html

Anyone with any insight as to what this may mean for the future of downtown? Does it have any legs? Is Sterman reputable?

been critical of the current CID and management but if you want things worse, support this group.   There is another way forward and people are working on it behind the scenes.



As far as what happens to downtown, it will be just fine. What do you expect to happen when daily population drops by 150,000 (workers, cards games, blues, conventions, parades, marathons etc)

^ what's the other way forward and how long until people stop getting shot or plowed down by drag racers? any sort of timeline?

^ this group has no plans until 2022 either, they want to replace the current cid. It’s not the CIDs job to reduce crime. That’s the polices job and frankly we have a very bad and incompetent police.



And it’s a big hyperbole to say people are getting run over.  1 girl died because the driver of the truck had her and 3 others sit in the flatbed, the 3 inside the truck walked away fine.  Obviously the driver of the car that hit  should get time but fatal car accident aren’t an issue downtown.      I think downtown has seen 3 shooting murders since start of 2019, I believe all 3 the people knew each other.

^ maybe a bit of hyperbole (although, what's the threshold? 4 people killed? 10? 100?), but the reckless driving does significant damage to infrastructure, and the reckless driving and shooting randomly into the air create an incredibly hostile and dangerous environment even when people aren't being intentionally shot or mowed down. it may not be the CID's job to reduce crime directly, but they can pursue infrastructure and policy changes that lead to more safety and vibrancy, right? the current CID seems pretty useless and the reasons for your opposition to Sterman's group aren't really clear. not sure why we couldn't have both the Sterman group and the "behind the scenes" efforts you're alluding to.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2020

^ maybe a bit of hyperbole (although, what's the threshold? 4 people killed? 10? 100?), but the reckless driving does significant damage to infrastructure, and the reckless driving and shooting randomly into the air create an incredibly hostile and dangerous environment even when people aren't being intentionally shot or mowed down. it may not be the CID's job to reduce crime directly, but they can pursue infrastructure and policy changes that lead to more safety and vibrancy, right? the current CID seems pretty useless and the reasons for your opposition to Sterman's group aren't really clear. not sure why we couldn't have both the Sterman group and the "behind the scenes" efforts you're alluding to.

This reminds me of those silly Vision Zero initiative that MoDOT and Others would undertake and fail at. If people drive they will get in car accidents and die. Set a better goal, like 10% annual reduction. Same with homicides in this city and others, as long as getting a gun is as easy as it is right now - people will have disagreements that lead to homicides.

what reminds you of vision zero? i'm not seeing the connection here. we're not just talking about poorly designed roads creating safety hazards, we're talking about people willfully creating havoc downtown with cars and guns. and c'mon. as long as people drive people will die? give me a break. same can be said about guns or any number of things. in that case why bother with any laws or safety regulations at all? your 10%/year benchmark sounds great. what's the plan, specifically? and how does it preclude whatever Sterman wants to do, or vice versa?

Meanwhile, as some mystery group prepares some mystery plan "behind the scenes", June saw more assaults and robberies Downtown than the previous eight Junes combined. And here are two headlines just from the last two days:

"Two men critically hurt after shooting each other in downtown St. Louis; Marriott garage hit by gunfire".

"Man shot in knee, another man robbed and a third carjacked in downtown St. Louis"

The fact is, Downtown's already shaky reputation is really taking a beating. 

For the 3rd time -  the current cid, the people who want a new cid led by Les and a 3rd group are all working on the new CID that’s starting after the 2021 vote.    None of that has anything to do with what’s happening today or tomorrow or the rest of the year. It’s a whole separate topic.

^ it's a recurring problem that's been going on for years, though. it just happens to have peaked this year for obvious reasons. i don't get the preoccupation with the new CID going into effect after the 2021 vote. what alternative plan is going to have solved all of these issues before then? and, again, i think you're correct that the CID is limited in what it can do to address crime but they can certainly help and I'm just not understanding your opposition.

Post Dispatch Editorial:

"Downtown mayhem highlights city's ongoing police shortage crisis".

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... 70573.html

As expected with huge drops of people NOT being downtown due to covid that crime would increase a bit with less eyes around and thats happened and numbers do lie sometimes.  In the police's monthly data for May they reported 2 cases of "assault; other"  in June that jumped to 88 and in july down to 4.   it jumped because thats what police arrested everyone during the protests on.  

They way I understand it....Sterman’s group is not necessarily wanting to replace the CID but looking to force changes to the next CID that will make it more transparent, a board more engaged and representative of stakeholders, and more effective. The current CID has failed.

Right now downtown is literally teetering on the brink of disaster due to Covid, crime, and unrest.

Sterman is the ex head of East West Gateway for many years.


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