urbanSTL

STLrainbow wrote:I'm curious what folks, especially downtown living and/or working folks, think about the overall state of downtown these days?
My 2c as an outsider and someone who has visited two or three times in the last month or so is it seems like things are a bit more lively and there's more reactivated buildings than a year or two ago, but that there's still a ways to go before things really get to where they should be as a strong CBD. You can envision it, but it's not there yet.

The biggest difference between my first days downtown in December of '14 and today: MX restaurants, specifically Sugarfire. The most exciting spot in all of downtown is, of course, the new Arch museum entrance. Overall though, downtown still feels the same. You're surprised when it's busy and just depressed when it's dead. Hotel Saint Louis is okay but that building already had great street presence. The closing of NLEC has helped that area but homelessness is still a struggle, would be a cheap and easy fix if Jefferson City cared. 

Random thoughts:
I feel like it's been awhile since we've had a big convention. The Halloween show might be the last one I can think of. 
People freak out about "all these new boutique hotels" but Hotel Saint Louis is the only one that's opened so far in downtown proper. Obviously Indigo and Last are due to open soon. Railway Exchange is still a huge blackhole on Olive between Hotel STL and Indigo though. 
I think the MX restaurants are our biggest success story. I think Sugarfire has been much more successful than anyone expected. 
The Washington & 13th area is okay, I'd be surprised if Lucas Park Grille is still open in 5 years. City Museum continues to be an incredible anchor of downtown. 
Not sure how Dao Tien is doing, they're often pretty empty at dinner time. The Bailey's restaurants are still doing quite well, Bridge is often full at dinner time. 

Well, I work downtown and I have since about 2002.  A few things I REALLY miss - St. Louis center and Famous Barr.  Yes, the center was mostly empty then but I could walk to Walgreens.   I feel this is a huge gap for us (I know we have Culinaria, but not the same).  Famous Barr had 2 or three very unique and cool restaurants, and it was an easy walk if I needed to grab something quick (new shirt or a gift over lunch hour).  Nothing has taken its place (I know we are not alone in that loss).

Yes, MX is cool, and working right of Wash Ave I find myself there a lot between CBW, Snarfs, Pi and Sugarfire - now we have Hi Point.  I do realize these are not the only places to eat, it just seems like they are currently the best aside from sitting down and spending more for lunch.

I want to be positive.  There have been great additions (BPV too) but it 'feels' like we have shuffled and not improved.  I am hopeful of more change.  More residential driving more growth in the service sector.

We don't have large conventions year round.  They are cyclical.  I love them when the come, but I also want to depend on ourselves to have a bustling downtown.

A friend of mine sold his house to settle in a condo downtown with his partner.  So the empty nester thing is still going on.  We just need more.  We need people to want to be down here.  I have thought about it myself, but never committed

OH - and the few times I have come down here AFTER work for an event (not sporting) I find the traffic lights are terrible.  Not in synch and create more traffic than we would have otherwise.  And I think we need to have our traffic flow opened more.  One way into two ways and back.  Visitors must fine our streets confusing and challenging to navigate.

STLCityMike wrote: OH - and the few times I have come down here AFTER work for an event (not sporting) I find the traffic lights are terrible.  Not in synch and create more traffic than we would have otherwise.  And I think we need to have our traffic flow opened more.  One way into two ways and back.  Visitors must fine our streets confusing and challenging to navigate.

The traffic lights are terrible for everyone. For pedestrians trying to cross from one side of Washington Ave. to the other, it's maybe a 2-minute wait.

On our main pedestrian street, pedestrians are an afterthought. It's the same at Market, which rarely has real traffic.Broadway, Fourth, Tucker, Olive west of Tucker, etc. are the same.

Like 25% of the streets downtown are terrible to try to cross on foot due to either fast traffic, absurdly long stoplight cycles, or both. And I assume the nonsenically long light times just serve to increase red light running, because who wants to wait multiple minutes, then even longer for unneeded turn-only cycles?

I've spent significant time working and playing downtown since 1998.  Big picture, it's mostly the same with some pieces shuffled.

For instance, Wash Ave's (12th to 15th) late 90s/early 00s vibrancy has moved east to the MX and south to BPV.  The Landing was still a thing at that time too. No more.

Now compared to late 90s/early 00s, more residents, fewer workers.

Sure, the Arch Grounds and Keiner Plaza have been redone, but neither of those rehabs did anything to increase the people enjoying them. Just cosmetic.

With all that said, I can say with 100% certainty the City Garden is the coolest addition to downtown in my lifetime.  Today, it was just buzzing with people, live music, some sort of bubble truck and kids swimming. It's just amazing. 

I know downtown infrastructure is constantly under construction but something needs to be done about the streetscape. Nearly every street is a patchwork of different repairs, it looks terrible. If there is one place in the city that should have shiny black new streets it's downtown. 

Also the Convention Center Metrolink station looks terrible from the street. The elevator by Sugarfire still has the original logo from the nineties and looks very dumpy. I was under the impression that there was going to be some revamping done this year but haven't heard much else.

Downtown is a mess. The Arch grounds renovation majorly messed up traffic flow. 4th street is a mess, Broadway too, there is no plan for downtown, no traffic plan, no plan for pedestrians, no plan for streetscape or placemaking. 

We have beautifully renovated buildings sitting on streets and sidewalks that are literally falling apart.

Downtown has been "on the comeback" for, what, 20 years now? I began working downtown in 2007 and it feels less busy now in the CBD than it did in early 2000s. Famous Barr, closed, ATT empty. As mentioned above, the streets all look like a patchwork of repairs, outdated and just plain poorly maintained infrastructure and no coordination between contractors who are constantly tearing up the streets downtown. I think i've seen the same strech of 4th street torn up at least 3 different time in the past year. It's ridiculous. Wash Ave, the "jewel" of downtown, looks really tired.

City leaders place too much emphasis on the needs of tourists and sports fans and not enough focus on the needs and wants of residents and workers who use downtown everyday.

City Garden is great though, and I like the new Kiener Plaza, but most of downtown is lacking...all downtown is doing is treading water and i've been so much more impressed with the downtown's in other cites mostly because they have things ours doesn't.....like nice sidewalks, street trees, new pavement...as a front door to our region, i think downtown doesn't do much to leave a great impressions, mediocre at best

I will say that Downtown will become livelier over the next decade. Butler Brothers, AT&T, Jefferson Arms, and Railway Exchange are 4 big projects that will add a ton. Plus, some infill will pop up here and there. The Moxy is the first true example outside of Ballpark Village and there are more to come. I am sure the next decade will bring sidewalk widenings and changes to make the streets welcomed. Streets will also be repaved, but those take considerable amounts of money to execute. My personal idea would be o add some street trees on the side streets, give road diets to Tucker, Olive west of Tucker and Market Street, add new street lights in that are similar to CHROMA's (they light up the street but also the sidewalk), and turn St. Charles Street, from Jefferson to past Tucker, into an activated alley. I'm sure some of those buildings have room for small spaces to be added for retail, cafes and other neat things. Close it off to make it pedestrian only, add some pavers in, strung lights and you got a winner. Although, I'm not sure if some of those loft buildings use St. Charles as a driveway, but something could be worked out. 

The activated alley would form a neat connector in Downtown that other developments could grow off of on the N/S streets. Below is an example in Detroit, Parkers Alley, which is situated behind the Shinola Hotel. Some stores are just starting to move in as well. It's neat and I think we could do it better here to add something new to Downtown. St. Charles is wider than Parkers Alley so the possibilities grow. Of course, it could be done in Phases. 

I think that these things would help with the vibrancy of Downtown in the long run. AT&T, Railway, and Jefferson Arms all have plans to come back. Butler Brothers went to auction again so hopefully, something comes out of that. Other smaller abandoned buildings have plans to come back which all add to Downtown. Tie it in with sidewalk enhancements and an activated alley that's unique and you got some new offerings for people, both workers and residents/guests.

I am not at all confident you will have a plan for major streetscape/traffic flow fixes anytime soon.  One major reason I think is that no Alderman lives downtown.  There's no plan for downtown because no one exclusively cares about downtown.  7th ward alderman lives and presumably interacts much more frequently with Soulard residents/concerns.   

The fact that we finally got a major transportation study done for downtown and not a single 2-way reversion was recommended infuriates me. They didn't even recommend a road diet for Olive west of Tucker, which also baffles me. After the study was published, I tried to meet up to discuss with one of the planners on the study but we never could find time to meet. I really want to start a petition or something to really challenge the city to pursue some 2-way reversions downtown and to replace a lot of stop lights with stop signs. Recently, 18th & Locust was switched from stop light to stop sign. It helps a lot, I bike through it several times per week. 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/10/30/ ... NHYpkuEzwI

-The AT&T building emptied out.
-We've lost several professional firms - Husch (moved to Clayton), Armstrong Teasdale (moved to Clayton), Ernst & Young (moved to Clayton), Blackwell Sanders (merged with Husch), Arthur Andersen (went down due to the Enron scandal)
-May Co. is no more.  From my perspective, this has been the most noticeable loss.  The Railway Exchange used to be buzzing with activity and now it's a black hole.

On the plus side, T-Rex has been a great addition to downtown.  Stifel has grown substantially.  Professional firms like Anders seem to be growing.  We've picked up a few employers, like Momentum and Larson allen.  Purina, KPMG and others have expanded their presence downtown.  It's a shame that Centene didn't move downtown - that would've been transformative.

stlgasm wrote:
Not sure replacing stoplights with stop signs would fly. Although downtown streets are under-capacity much of the time, downtown is also where the biggest citywide events are held and on those days traffic would be a cluster**** with stop signs everywhere, especially when the streets are filled with drivers who are unfamiliar with the city.

I should have specified, I'm speaking mostly about the historic core aka Old Post Office area. I've lived and worked in this area of downtown for 4 years, I have never once seen anything even closely resembling traffic congestion on Locust, and I say that with absolute certainty. Much of 6th through 11th streets, from Chestnut to Washington are virtually congestion free, even during major events, especially during rush hour. I would actually argue that the network of one-ways and stoplights force traffic onto 4th, Bway, and Washington, crippling the dispersal of traffic that grids do so well. 

chriss752 wrote:
The activated alley would form a neat connector in Downtown that other developments could grow off of on the N/S streets. Below is an example in Detroit, Parkers Alley, which is situated behind the Shinola Hotel. Some stores are just starting to move in as well. It's neat and I think we could do it better here to add something new to Downtown. St. Charles is wider than Parkers Alley so the possibilities grow. Of course, it could be done in Phases. 

I agree.  Something like what the Foundry is doing but in an actually well utilized thoroughfare like this would be increasingly progressive.

If there was a way to offer affordable farmers' market/food hall-sized restaurant space, this would be it.  Would feel very european, instantly add something genuinely unique to Downtown, and offer affordable space for makers, restauranteurs, and food producers.  Sorry, but Foundry sounds like a rip-off for the restaurants.  Love to see a realm where there could be an incubator of sorts for new concepts, at reasonable street food prices.

Dumpsters may be an interesting problem to tackle, especially behind active buildings with established "rear ends." I wonder what the solution was for the Parker's Alley development.

Lucas Ave immediately west of City Museum looks like a good candidate for this as well. Solid streetwall to the south combined with thoughtful new construction in the lots to the north could make a hell of a corridor. We could even decorate it with City Museum style art and or places to climb. 

The super cheap retail space would also be a boon to the fashion district we are trying to create in the area. Perfect for e-commerce based business. Downtown NEEDS to build a critical mass of high quality retail to become a shopping center. We have to be one of the biggest downtowns without any meaningful presence of retail so I will take anything I can get.

I walk around downtown quite a bit whenever I can and to be honest our downtown really lacks that knockout punch which is retail. All the other ingredients are there but we really need to get some massing of retail in the heart and soul of our downtown. I also wish there was a master plan to completely reconstruct the streets they are awful and ugly at this point I’d prefer cobblestone streets or a complete dirt/gravel road to what we have now. Tucker needs a absolute diet as well. Anyways so much potential and I hope that this Blues run win or lose gets the ball rolling even further and permanent


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Alley A in Columbia is a similar idea. It's about a two block stretch of activated alley. I'm not positive as to this, but I suspect what they did was push all the dumpsters down to the next block. (If you look at G-maps you can see an unusual concentration of dumpsters immediately west of Tenth and immediately east of Hitt. The most active part of Alley A is between Hitt and Tenth. There are some back entrances elsewhere, and have long been, but that's the "official" pedestrian stretch and the chunk that first got signs. That works . . . maybe tolerably? . . . when you're talking one block. But it won't work so well for longer stretches. And even so, I bet there's some grumbling from employees come garbage hauling time. Looks like absolutely everyone on the block has to cross an active street just to take out the trash.

I think the best bet for an activated Alley would be between 14th and Tucker on St. Charles. The Jefferson Arms will be renovated, you’ll have two hotels there, multiple Lofts and a park to have seating look out over if you have a cafe. It would pull on the businesses on that same stretch of Washington.

I like it at 10th as well.  There is a lot of potential for it though, especially further west, more in the garment district proper.

How do we get this roughed out thought to someone meaningful?

The Jefferson Hotel is huge.  Someone/developer group  with some deep pockets and a committed vision will need to step forward in order for that large of a project to get going.

Copia Market has closed. Thought the plan was to keep it open

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: Copia Market has closed. Thought the plan was to keep it open

Yeah it was open for all of two weeks after the restaurant closed. There's some nice real estate signage on it though. So hopefully they're aggressive about filling it. Come on TJ Maxx!!!

soulardx wrote:
With all that said, I can say with 100% certainty the City Garden is the coolest addition to downtown in my lifetime.  Today, it was just buzzing with people, live music, some sort of bubble truck and kids swimming. It's just amazing. 

I won't disagree with you, but just how shameful is it that filling a need are two huge, stinking, leaking port-a-potties blocking the sidewalk ... TEN YEARS after the garden opened?  Yesterday I saw unaware parents walking a wet, screaming toddler across the street to the (shuttered) AT&T building because the kid was terrified of using the disgusting porta-potty (that's a big thing with a lot of kids I've noticed...not that I blame them).  Of course they couldn't get in and all I could do was sympathize with them, because the building was closed.  Just how "St. Louis" is that duct-tape-and-baling-wire solution?

Because St. Louis can't maintain the restrooms.  This should be one of the top projects for Downtown St. Louis.  What a blemish.