Additional investment and development in south stl neighborhoods doesn't have to be an effect of central corridor growth. The trickle-out development theory is ignorant.
Especially considering north and south St. Louis residents who've been here forever, caring for their communities/ understanding what new investments & developments these n'hoods need.
That area of South City has seen disinvestment for years. I don't believe it is any coincidence that we're seeing multiple investments in that area due to the growing popularity of adjacent neighborhoods - especially when a developer is openly trying to emulate a successful project from one of those neighborhoods.
I've lived in SOHA near Kingshighway for many years now. I always look at the sea of parking and underutilized storefronts on the East side of Kingshighway and try to envision how different that stretch would be if the land could be properly utilized with moderate density multi-use infill. Excited to hear changes are underway, but the details of how these sites are used is key to whether or not this project can provide a positive impact for the city and surrounding neighborhoods.
dylank wrote:Additional investment and development in south stl neighborhoods doesn't have to be an effect of central corridor growth. The trickle-out development theory is ignorant.
Especially considering north and south St. Louis residents who've been here forever, caring for their communities/ understanding what new investments & developments these n'hoods need.
No, but it has to be an effect of demand. There's just not much demand in that part of South City, largely because the city is still losing population and there aren't any major institutions driving employment/investment like there are in the Central Corridor. Simply wanting new investment and development, or feeling entitled to it, doesn't lead to new investment and development, unfortunately. The "trickle out" theory might hurt your sensibilities but that's the way it works. When capacity is reached in high-demand areas or those areas become too expensive, then demand trickles out to adjacent, affordable, low-demand areas. Unfortunately for St. Louis there is still ample room in the Central Corridor and in Central-Corridor-adjacent neighborhoods so it'll be a while before that kind of investment makes it to Chippewa, if ever.
Maybe some don't know, but this neighborhood was briefly hot for awhile (between Hampton and Kingshighway) There wasn't much new residential construction, but there was a lot of rehabbing and new retail going on here, and new people moving in, it felt like it was poised to take off, until 2008. Great housing stock, relatively stable neighborhoods, and quick access to highways and job centers via Hampton and Kingshighway. I think it's inevitable this area takes off again, but Kingshighway needs to be a development focus and needs a Form-Based Code. It is very depressing as is..
Central Corridor trickle-down theory is suspect; it may be in play to some degree but South City has its own significant demand and as with any city a lot of people prefer to live outside of central corridor equivalents for a whole host of reasons.
I definitely agree with urbanitas that South Kingshighway would benefit greatly from solid form-based code... though that would involve multiple wards/alders to accomplish.
urbanitas wrote:Maybe some don't know, but this neighborhood was briefly hot for awhile (between Hampton and Kingshighway) There wasn't much new residential construction, but there was a lot of rehabbing and new retail going on here, and new people moving in, it felt like it was poised to take off, until 2008.
I'm confused exactly where you're talking about...Southampton? We just bought a house in Southampton and there are bidding wars/multiple offers on most homes, a lot of homes are on the market for just a few days, and Macklind is pretty busy and much more lively than it was when i lived in the neighborhood around 2004. There might not be a lot of new construction, but people definitely want to live here.
I've always been surprised Kingshighway looks the way it does in this area given the relative strength of the neighborhood and the demand to live there. Chippewa/Kingshighway where the Avalon was is a disgrace.
urbanitas wrote:Maybe some don't know, but this neighborhood was briefly hot for awhile (between Hampton and Kingshighway) There wasn't much new residential construction, but there was a lot of rehabbing and new retail going on here, and new people moving in, it felt like it was poised to take off, until 2008.
I'm confused exactly where you're talking about...Southampton? We just bought a house in Southampton and there are bidding wars/multiple offers on most homes, a lot of homes are on the market for just a few days, and Macklind is pretty busy and much more lively than it was when i lived in the neighborhood around 2004. There might not be a lot of new construction, but people definitely want to live here.
I've always been surprised Kingshighway looks the way it does in this area given the relative strength of the neighborhood and the demand to live there. Chippewa/Kingshighway where the Avalon was is a disgrace.
I'm talking more Princeton Heights, but the east end of Southampton as well, or west of Christy Park up to Chippewa. I meant that there were a lot of young, single people moving in there at the time, and it seemed like it was on the verge of becoming a more upscale, walkable, hip neighborhood, i.e. the G-word. The retail / entertainment scene wasn't blowing up by any stretch, but there were a lot of on-the-drawing-board and rumored projects then, which never materialized I'm sure there is still plenty of demand, it's just more of a middle class, family-oriented demand (not that there's anything wrong with that).
This may be old information, but from what I have been able to dig up from multiple people, retail will front Kingshighway with the old Armory building and auto plaza going away. On top of that, 3 floors of apartments. A large parking garage will be built on the back of the site. Two courtyards will be included along with some green space. Sidewalks will be wide enough for outdoor patios. There will be street trees.
I say this may be old due to the fact that these people have known different parts of these plans since early July (prior to announcement). The most recent knowledge someone has had comes from Mid October. Carol Howard didn't mention this project in what appeared to be her year-end newsletter.
On another note, Garcia bought the old Avalon Theater site so I've seen some people starting rumors that Garcia is planning an apartment building there. My contacts at Garcia haven't responded to my questions about that. So I would say it will be used for future investment, which is a ways off.
^ If that is truly what replaces the old Armory, that would be FANTASTIC. It would seem that there are a bunch of ripe spots on South Kingshighway that could be used for mixed-use or residential purposes to help rebuild that stretch. I always look at the mass of parking and largely vacant retail north of Christy Parkway as a great possibility for mixed use development of mostly residential but some smart retail as well.
I know the owners at Garcia Properties and they are awesome people that care for the neighborhood and want to see it progress. I have no doubt that any properties that they take under ownership will be restored or rebuilt to the benefit of the neighborhood over time.
^^ i'm confused. it says demolition. demolition of a 4-family frame? i'm not seeing a 4-family frame. demolition of the current structure and construction of a single 4-family frame house on that gigantic lot? can't be.
Some more information from Carol Howard’s monthly email...
1. Name will be SOGRO.
2. Will feature a clubhouse and will have amenities like Chroma.
3. Construction should start in January 2021.
I recently made my way down South Kingshighway for the first time in two or three years. I was horrified. I couldn't believe how car-centrically uglyfied it's become. Massive car washes, block-long Quick Trips, etc., etc., etc. Makes me think Olive through U City might not be so bad after all.
Apart from the Southtown Famous, which always had a mammoth parking lot right across the street, and the Avalon I'm not really sure it's ever been anything other than car-centric. Even when I was a kid it was car lot after car lot after car lot. There was a huge tire store at the corner of Ridgewood and Kingshighway, I think it was. There were maybe more smaller filling stations and mechanics. Even Uncle Bill's, which is something of an institution, feels darned car-centric to me. It's 50s roadside architecture at its finest. I think there might have been more light industry when I was a kid, but that's hardly stuff I would call pedestrian friendly. There was the Kroeger, I suppose. With its sea of parking. And the Venture and the Schnucks with theirs. But all of that is a quarter century gone or more. Now there's not even the Shop and Save. Went from two groceries to one to none. That corner right at Kingshighway and Chippewa had some walkable life when I was young, but there was no reason to go north of that, and little reason to go south. I walked to Kingshighway, but never along it. (I don't think I even realized the Schnucks and Venture were actually ON Kingshighway. I thought of them as on Landsdowne.) It was always pretty much the traffic sump that defined the edge of my world. Until I got a driver's license, that is. (At which point I went to Grand or Maryland most of the time.) It is depressing, I will grant. But . . . it's been depressing a long long time now.
South Kingshighway has been car centric for ages. Its not much different from when you drove down it 3 years ago, just that some of the parking lots are newer.
It certainly doesn't have to remain like this. A few nice developments replacing the Dollar Tree and the Autozone along with their respective parking lots and you have a nice walkable strip. Replace the Jack in the Box and build on the Avalon site and suddenly we have Maplewood 2.0.
^ I think you'd need a road diet there. Which is probably impossible at this point. Though, I suppose Manchester is about as wide as Kingshighway at this portion.
I think the three lane portions of Kingshighway could definitely stand to lose a lane at least.
It's a shame how ugly Kingshighway is until you reach Tower Grove Park. It's a bad look for the city for visitors who may be exploring or staying in an Airbnb down there.
Does SLU own any property along that stretch or are their holdings confined to the Grand corridor? It would be nice to see some institution come around with a larger plan to revitalize Kingshighway.
^I will agree that it would be great if it were more walkable or prettier. Heck maybe now that the Shop n' Save is empty maybe someone could build an apartment block there with first floor retail that harkened back to the Southtown Famous. But I'm not sure what drives that development. How do you fill the apartments? Or the storefronts for that matter. Near Tower Grove I can see a drive, but what's the anchor that draws people in further south?
^Shop N Save isn't empty. There's a Planet Fitness location in there, I believe owned by the same guy that is acquiring the properties for the Cornerstone Chippewa development. There is a 2nd storefront in the building available, but most of it is the gym. I'd much rather see complete redevelopment of that site, but at least it didn't sit for a long time.
