3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostNov 30, 2006#26

If the land is private then the owner should be able to determine parking issues, with some regulations.



The government could pass laws limiting the maximum price/lot size and somehow tie that to inflation, yet putting extremely tough rules is bad.



They figured with free parking people would come downtown and the cities of America would be saved. While parking regulations are good, extreme policies can have the opposite effect.



Regarding taxing people who don't, or maybe do use something to support something else. This is pretty common simply look at the hotel and rental car taxes. Gaming taxes are supposed to support schools or general revenue. These people are not lining up to pay the tax yet that is generally because its not too high, ie) cost-benefit analysis.

5,631
Life MemberLife Member
5,631

PostNov 30, 2006#27

Bastiat, if you had your druthers, our tax burden would be next to nil. We hear you :P As an aside, it's amusing how we are censored on this forum from talking politics when practically every issue is political (including this one.)

801
Super MemberSuper Member
801

PostNov 30, 2006#28

innov8ion wrote:Bastiat, if you had your druthers, our tax burden would be next to nil. We hear you :P As an aside, it's amusing how we are censored on this forum from talking politics when practically every issue is political (including this one.)


People will always support taxes so long as it goes to the "right" things (aka things that they want). I'm not going to argue against taxes for things that most people support...on this thread. But what about the thing that people on this board hate most: sprawl. How do people feel about subsidizing driving through paying tax money for parking lots and roads? The money paid for "free" parking is not a direct tax, but you pay it everytime you buy a good or service from a store that is forced to provide it.



It seems that most people did not read the review of the book (you have to scroll down and click on one of the links), so I'll post some of the interesting facts from it:


in 1946, only 17% of a sample of cities surveyed had parking requirements, while by 1951 71% of cities had parking requirements or were in the process of adopting them; today, off-street parking requirements so common as to be one of “three basic sets of regulations” that are virtually universal).

Minimum parking requirements artificially disperse population, because land devoted to parking cannot be used for housing or businesses. For example, in 1961, Oakland, California began to require one parking space per dwelling unit for apartment buildings. Within just three years, the number of apartments per acre fell by 30%. The effects of parking upon job density are even more extreme: more than half of downtown Buffalo, for example, is devoted to parking.


You can probably subsitute St. Louis for Buffalo in that last sentence as well...


Initially the developer pays for the required parking, but soon the tenants do, and then their customers, and so on, until the cost of parking has diffused everywhere in the economy. When we shop in a store, eat in a restaurant, or see a movie, we pay for parking indirectly because its cost is included in the price of merchandise, meals and theater tickets. We unknowingly support our cars with almost every commercial transaction we make because a small share of the money changing hands pays for parking.

Thanks to the parking subsidy, more Americans drive to work, which in turn means that fewer people use public transit than would otherwise be the case, which means that public transit agencies have less revenue, which means that those transit agencies must raise fares or provide less service, which means that even fewer people ride public transit. And where more Americans drive, there is of course more demand

for parking- which means that minimum parking requirements, by encouraging driving, may actually create parking shortages.

Off-street parking requirements restrict the redevelopment of older buildings, thereby discouraging infill development and forcing potential businesses out of established areas. Suppose, for instance, that a barbershop closes in a city which requires 2 parking spaces per barber, and that a beautician who hopes to open a beauty shop in the same location must, under city parking regulations, create 3 parking spaces

per beautician. Unless the beautician can obtain a zoning variance she must either

1) provide more parking spaces or

2) move to another building with more parking space. If the beautician’s shop is surrounded by other buildings, provision of additional parking

may be impractical, so the beautician must move to another building with more space and allow the existing building to stay vacant unless another barber can be found for that location. Thus, minimum parking requirements discourage redevelopment of existing buildings.

Institute for Transportation Engineers survey parking occupancy at various land uses, and create a “parking generation” rate that measures the number of drivers who park at various types of enterprises. ITE data is flawed in two respects. First, ITE data is based on data from sites with ample free parking and no public transit. Thus, planners who rely on ITE data create a selffulfilling prophecy: they set parking requirements based on data from automobile dependent places, which ensures that cities enact stringent minimum parking requirements, which in turn helps to create the automobile-dependent places upon which ITE data is based. Second, ITE data is based upon parking during peak periods, and thus dramatically overestimates day-to-day parking demand, leading to government-mandated parking lots that are often more than half empty.


That's just a sampling of the review, not to mention the book itself.



The point is, maybe instead of dreaming up new plans and regulations to make our city more urban, we could turn our efforts towards tearing down the plans and regulations in place that prevent the market from producing this density on its own? Instead of critiquing parking lot designs, we could be fighting to repeal the laws that mandate developers to have that many spaces in the first place. Thoughts?

138
Junior MemberJunior Member
138

PostAug 12, 2009#29

In his new book The High Cost of Free Parking, UCLA urban planning

teacher Donald Shoup makes the case that urban parking has a high,

hidden cost.



"the free parking that Americans love isn't really 'free' at all. A recent

parking garage project in New Haven, Connecticut, for example, cost more

than 30 million USD for almost 1,200 spaces - that's more than 25,000 USD

per space."



More: http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/18 ... rking.html

923
Super MemberSuper Member
923

PostAug 12, 2009#30

Not really new, this book was being touted at an APA Conference back in 2003.



It is an interesting read though.

138
Junior MemberJunior Member
138

PostAug 12, 2009#31

2005, I just learned, but still...that's four years old. I'm going to complain to DesignBoom, which is supposed to include "new" information in the newsletter they send to my inbox daily.



Glad it was a good read, though...I haven't done so yet.

271
Full MemberFull Member
271

PostJun 27, 2014#32

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/27/5849280/wh ... ent=friday
America is built around cars. And most of us expect that we'll be able to park our cars for free, pretty much anywhere we go.

But economist Donald Shoup of UCLA has made a name for himself by advocating an alternative scheme: charging for street parking anywhere there are more people with cars than spaces to park.

Shoup's 2005 book, The High Cost of Free Parking, articulated why exactly he thinks free parking is such a bad idea. His ideas have started to influence policy: several cities, including San Francisco, have recently begun experimenting with the variable, market-set pricing scheme he thinks makes the most sense. And recent studies have confirmed that it cuts down on cruising time and traffic congestion.

Shoup recently spoke with me to explain his argument in detail.
Great writeup on a problem that plagues St. Louis particularly badly.

678
Senior MemberSenior Member
678

PostJul 20, 2017#33

Another one:

692
Senior MemberSenior Member
692

PostJul 20, 2017#34

Increasing the cost of parking tickets would be a good start.

Here it's $15 if you don't pay the meter. Cincinnati charges ~$50. Enforced at hours more consistent with usage patterns than with the times meter maids want to work (9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Monday through Saturday, and 2 p.m. to 9 p.m. Sunday).

4,006
Life MemberLife Member
4,006

PostJul 20, 2017#35

I am not entirely sure my thoughts on this. In a big dense city like San Francisco it makes a lot of sense. For St. Louis (unless you literally made all parking paid for the entire metro area), I don't think it would work that well. Half the reason I don't go downtown is because I don't want to pay to park. I know that is probably silly since it doesn't cost that much, but it is true. I can park at many other restaurants/stores in the county and other parts of the city for free, so why go downtown and pay for it? That said, if they raised the parking fee for sporting events I would ride the train more. Right now I can park for $5, so if you have more than one person that is cheaper than the train.

I am sure there is a good way for St. Louis to implement this in some form but I just don't know what it is. Variable pricing for how busy things are makes sense.

473
Full MemberFull Member
473

PostJul 20, 2017#36

St. Louis in a nutshell, if I have to pay a couple dollars to park, screw it.

I'll never understand why paying to park is an 11 on the "painful things" list for people in this town.

428
Full MemberFull Member
428

PostJul 21, 2017#37

olvidarte wrote:
Jul 20, 2017
St. Louis in a nutshell, if I have to pay a couple dollars to park, screw it.

I'll never understand why paying to park is an 11 on the "painful things" list for people in this town.
Meters in the past I hated because I never carried cash/coins. Ever since I can pay with my mobile phone it's just a no brainer. I don't even care about the extra fee for credit cards. It's just so easy

13K
Life MemberLife Member
13K

PostNov 27, 2021#38

NextSTL- #BlackFridayParking in Webster Groves and St. Louis

https://nextstl.com/2021/11/blackfriday ... -st-louis/

PostJan 24, 2024#39

NextSTL - Eliminating Parking Minimums Works. Ask Minneapolis and Buffalo

https://nextstl.com/2024/01/eliminating ... d-buffalo/

PostJan 24, 2024#40

NPR - From Austin to Anchorage, U.S. cities opt to ditch their off-street parking minimums



Read more posts (-10 remaining)