urbanSTL

How's the view from U City? I guess since you live closer to the city border your opinion is more valid?

And, you should actually visit Florissant before you share your opinion about it.

Alex Ihnen wrote:The Grove CID won't allow auto dealerships, tattoo parlors (except when they do), second-hand clothing stores, etc. etc. etc. - done all the time.

But those are explicitly ruled out and are done so ahead of time. Municipalities in the area have faced unwinnable lawsuits when they reactively say we don't want X type of business. This has happened with payday loan stores, car dealerships, and so on. The most they can do is to codify that no more than N can be within the boundaries, and "N" can't preclude the one attempting to move in.

And the likelihood of the city saying we won't allow.... (what...a discount store?)....moving in, would probably be slim.

It's my understanding that the Grove CID has no power in the sense of granting or revoking or withholding business permits. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Alex Ihnen wrote:you state that some city residents commenting here are seeking a homogeneous place with Whole Foods and Trader Joe's.

Because its true. Several people on the forum have a strong opposition to big box retail. Or, they view the emergence of any retail that doesn't serve a wealthy clientele as regressive. That isn't true.

My family frequents both Whole Foods and Trader Joes. I have no problem with either of those stores. I have no problem with city residents wanting nice stores. However, the critical mass to support those retailers is not there. And it will never be there as long as people have an all or nothing view of retail in the city. Foundations must first be laid, and that means retail that some view as less than savory.

FWIW, I support ALL retail. The more retail, the more tax revenue. The more tax revenue, the more of everything else. Let the cycle begin.

I hear it would actually be The Dollar Tree and location would be in extremely close proximity to the Culinaria.

arch city wrote:A dollar store would be fine for downtown. Downtown St. Louis needs to attract retail. Period. Diverse retail.

Personally, over the last year or so, I've sent out numerous emails to retail chains requesting for retailers to take a peek at downtown St. Louis.

The typical reply - if I get one at all - is.... "Thanks for your interest in a location (of our company) for downtown St. Louis, but there are no plans at this time to open a location in downtown St. Louis. Please feel free to visit our other stores in Chesterfield, etc. etc."

Obstacles to downtown retail:

1. I think Downtown St. Louis Partnership isn't doing enough to involve the public and downtown residents in soliciting retailers for downtown. Has there ever been a survey asking residents what retailers they would like to see downtown? Target retailers with writing campaigns, stats.

2. Local commercial retail brokers and franchisees in charge of locating retail storefronts (Dunkin Donuts, Wendys, Krispy & Kreme, Ross etc. etc.) for national retailers and restaurants steer locations mostly to the suburbs. Shameful.

3. I think downtown should focus on luring stores that attract women then build from there. Women love to shop. Wherever women shop, more retailers tend to follow. Basic stores such as Charming Charlie, Bath & Body Works, Bakers (St. Louis-based), Payless, Express, Foot Action, Foot Locker, Dress Barn, Victoria's Secret, 99 Cent, Dollar General etc. These are stores that would also cater to tourists and the downtown workforce.

The Downtown Partnership distributes a survey to downtown workers and residents every year asking what retail is needed and wanted. They do reach out to the public. Until Apple opens downtown my vote won't change.

I would agree more women stores are needed.

I would guess the store is proposed for one of the retail spots in the Syndicate.

So it is a Dollar Tree. Back to my original point, there are Dollar Trees in Creve Coeur, Ballwin, and Town and Country.

We complain about national chains not giving the city or Downtown a chance, but when one does its not good enough?

Oh god, I love my blue collar neck of south city and i'm not underserved by dollar stores here. Maybe when I want to do my fancy shoppins, I'd rather do it in the city and keep that money here rather than haul out to west county mall.

downtown2007 wrote:

arch city wrote:A dollar store would be fine for downtown. Downtown St. Louis needs to attract retail. Period. Diverse retail.

Personally, over the last year or so, I've sent out numerous emails to retail chains requesting for retailers to take a peek at downtown St. Louis.

The typical reply - if I get one at all - is.... "Thanks for your interest in a location (of our company) for downtown St. Louis, but there are no plans at this time to open a location in downtown St. Louis. Please feel free to visit our other stores in Chesterfield, etc. etc."

Obstacles to downtown retail:

1. I think Downtown St. Louis Partnership isn't doing enough to involve the public and downtown residents in soliciting retailers for downtown. Has there ever been a survey asking residents what retailers they would like to see downtown? Target retailers with writing campaigns, stats.

2. Local commercial retail brokers and franchisees in charge of locating retail storefronts (Dunkin Donuts, Wendys, Krispy & Kreme, Ross etc. etc.) for national retailers and restaurants steer locations mostly to the suburbs. Shameful.

3. I think downtown should focus on luring stores that attract women then build from there. Women love to shop. Wherever women shop, more retailers tend to follow. Basic stores such as Charming Charlie, Bath & Body Works, Bakers (St. Louis-based), Payless, Express, Foot Action, Foot Locker, Dress Barn, Victoria's Secret, 99 Cent, Dollar General etc. These are stores that would also cater to tourists and the downtown workforce.

The Downtown Partnership distributes a survey to downtown workers and residents every year asking what retail is needed and wanted. They do reach out to the public. Until Apple opens downtown my vote won't change.

There is no greater than a 0.001% chance of an Apple store locating downtown anytime in the near future. Their business model revolves around highly trafficked areas. This is not one of them.

The problem is that it just doesn't fit.

So far, downtown has done a fairly good job of attracting shops and restaurants that better the neighborhood, give it a uniqueness as a destination point and has put things in place to make people want to spend their hard-earned money to either lease or purchase a loft/condo there. And all these things have also led to more small businesses wanting to relocate downtown. Living downtown is not cheap and I'm pretty sure you could have just about every single resident fill out a survey of what types of retail they would like to have, and NONE OF THEM would say The Dollar Tree. Like it or not, the loft district is upscale. Look at the demographics of the residents. Most are college educated, have professional jobs and make some pretty good coin. Will they patronize The Dollar Tree? Maybe, but I doubt it for most. I'm not sayin' that everything has to be "cool" and expensive, but there is a standard that has been set and is obviously working as downtown has become just about the fastest growing population around.

I'm actually surprised that The Dollar Tree even wants to go downtown. I'm not so sure they would even be successful. And what to do you think that would do to not only future retail but future residents as well? The Post Office District is a great area and having The Dollar Tree there will cheapen it, at least psychologically. Does another "typical downtown" retailer want to go in next to The Dollar Tree? I doubt it. Does a person want to plump down $200,000 - $500,000 for a loft, then tell people, "hey just turn right at The Dollar Tree and that's my building?" I doubt it. Will having a Dollar Tree make anyone say, "YES! Now I want to move downtown?" I seriously doubt it.

Other areas work hard to create a feel and vibe just like downtown has, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd like to see The Dollar Tree go over to Lafayette Square. Think that would go over well with their association? Or how about right on Euclid near Maryland Plaza in the Central West End? Think they would let that happen? Or how about the Loop? That is one of the most diverse areas in St. Louis and I bet Joe Edwards first choice would not be The Dollar Tree.

I'm all for diversity and having things that appeal to all walks of life but The Dollar Tree makes ZERO sense to me for the Post Office District, and does absolutely nothing to enhance that area. Actually, it could have a negative effect.

Now, if they wanted to retool and do a concept store kind of like what Culinaria did, I could buy off on that. Maybe something like "The Dollar Tree Loft" and offer low cost options that appeal to both loft dwellers and local businesses. That could be a hit.

^ But the recurring theme here is that nobody has to be asked if it fits, if residents want it, or if it will do well. I keep getting the feeling that people think residents will be able to vote or influence the city to simply deny Dollar Tree to move in, but there is no mechanism that I know of that would allow that.

ou812 wrote:The problem is that it just doesn't fit.

So far, downtown has done a fairly good job of attracting shops and restaurants that better the neighborhood, give it a uniqueness as a destination point and has put things in place to make people want to spend their hard-earned money to either lease or purchase a loft/condo there. And all these things have also led to more small businesses wanting to relocate downtown. Living downtown is not cheap and I'm pretty sure you could have just about every single resident fill out a survey of what types of retail they would like to have, and NONE OF THEM would say The Dollar Tree. Like it or not, the loft district is upscale. Look at the demographics of the residents. Most are college educated, have professional jobs and make some pretty good coin. Will they patronize The Dollar Tree? Maybe, but I doubt it for most. I'm not sayin' that everything has to be "cool" and expensive, but there is a standard that has been set and is obviously working as downtown has become just about the fastest growing population around.

I'm actually surprised that The Dollar Tree even wants to go downtown. I'm not so sure they would even be successful. And what to do you think that would do to not only future retail but future residents as well? The Post Office District is a great area and having The Dollar Tree there will cheapen it, at least psychologically. Does another "typical downtown" retailer want to go in next to The Dollar Tree? I doubt it. Does a person want to plump down $200,000 - $500,000 for a loft, then tell people, "hey just turn right at The Dollar Tree and that's my building?" I doubt it. Will having a Dollar Tree make anyone say, "YES! Now I want to move downtown?" I seriously doubt it.

Other areas work hard to create a feel and vibe just like downtown has, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'd like to see The Dollar Tree go over to Lafayette Square. Think that would go over well with their association? Or how about right on Euclid near Maryland Plaza in the Central West End? Think they would let that happen? Or how about the Loop? That is one of the most diverse areas in St. Louis and I bet Joe Edwards first choice would not be The Dollar Tree.

I'm all for diversity and having things that appeal to all walks of life but The Dollar Tree makes ZERO sense to me for the Post Office District, and does absolutely nothing to enhance that area. Actually, it could have a negative effect.

Now, if they wanted to retool and do a concept store kind of like what Culinaria did, I could buy off on that. Maybe something like "The Dollar Tree Loft" and offer low cost options that appeal to both loft dwellers and local businesses. That could be a hit.

I agree.

Not my first, second, or third choice for a retailer but something is better than nothing.

And there really hasn't een any retailer of any signifigance since Culinaria. With the economic recession these stores are filling a need for many "folks" as our Prez would say. Everybody is hurt. Retailers do provide some solutions.

In reference to the previous post above from Arch City and other comments about retailers coming to downtown St. Louis, I'm a commercial real estate broker with an emphasis in retail and restaurants here in St. Louis and I'm also a proud loft owner(Meridian) since 2007. I have a strong level of disagreement with what Arch City stated above. Individuals in my profession do not steer their clients to other parts of St. Louis or the suburbs. We live off of completed sales and leases (commissions) and retaining our cleints for a long period of time, why would we care if our client's educated choice for their next location were downtown or Chesterfield???

Retailers and Restaurants have a business model and demographic profile centered around specific population counts (whether permanent or daytime), income levels, age, traffic counts/flow, co-tenancy (surrounding retailers), success/sales of competitors, etc that they follow very closely when deciding on an area and location. This dictates where retailers and restaurants go, not the brokers.

If Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Target, Apple, Walgreens, CVS, Dollar Tree, Five Below, Potbelly Subs, TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Ross Dress For Less, Dressbarn, Victoria's Secret, PetSmart, Petco or other national/regional retailers and restaurants feel like they can succeed in making money in downtown St. Louis, they would be here. Thats it. If all brokers got together and said "dont take your clients downtown"; 1) we'd lose our licenses for Steering and Antitrust violations and 2) our clients would fire us for not showing them all the opportunities in the St. louis market where they can succeed.

Instead of blaming brokers, maybe we should start blaming ourselves and thinking of ways to attract these companies to downtown St. Louis. Retail and Restaurants follow growth in population, jobs, traffic, and income. So, I would recommend the City and Downtown St. Louis Partnership continue doing what they have been doing which is pushing to attract new jobs and people to downtown through marketing and awareness of what the City has to offer, and public/private incentives and subsidies (not a popular subject around here but it's sometimes necessary).

Moving on to more positive things, we have several clients looking downtown and I'm very bullish on the downtown St. Louis market. In fact, we recently made a deal in downtown St. Louis with a very exciting and large national restaurant. It will be public soon. First national restaurant to commit to downtown St. Louis in a while. Also under contract at 1727 Wash Ave with a St. Louis restaurant group who will build a ground up building on the site in the next couple years.

I must have forgotten to steer them both to Clayton

Also, if you're going to take a public shot at a hard working profession like mine, at least post your real name at the bottom of your email and not hide behind an avatar like Arch City.

If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to email me at kevin@l3corp.net

Thanks,
Kevin Shapiro

thanks for the thoughtful and encouraging response, kevin.

kbshapiro wrote: In fact, we recently made a deal in downtown St. Louis with a very exciting and large national restaurant. It will be public soon. First one in downtown St. Louis in a while.

OLIVE GARDEN!?!?!? just kidding, just kidding. wait, so this place has had a downtown location in the past? or do you mean first national chain in a while?

kbshapiro wrote:Also under contract at 1727 Wash Ave with a St. Louis restaurant group who will build a ground up building on the site in the next couple years.

is that the parking lot on the NE corner of 18th and washington? who owns (owned) the lot? do you find that surface lot owners are generally willing to sell downtown? just curious. i sometimes wonder if it retards development.

First national restaurant chain to locate downtown in a while. I'm thinking the last one to be maybe Hooters. Also, its not Olive Garden or any restaurant located anywhere in St. Louis Meto Area.

Yes, lot at the NE corner of Wash Ave and 18th. Some lot owners will sell, some hold. Depends on the owner. Depends on where the lot is

If the Dollar Tree is anything like Dollar General, you can get some great deals on everyday items. Therefore, I welcome it as a retail option. My office is in a Metro East town that has a high median income and is generally considered a nice town. They have both a Dollar Tree and Dollar General. It did not lower property values...

Excited to hear about the other national retailers looking to open downtown. The bottom line, is that we need some of these to open and succeed in downtown if we are ever going to see others open.

Kudos to Mr. Shapiro for giving a true "get-your-hands-in-the-dirt" account about what is really going on in downtown St. Louis. I too tire of the posters on here who constantly pontificate on what "should happen" downtown instead of knowing "what is happening" downtown. The emotion-based posts on this site do nothing to further what we all want, a thriving CBD.

Alex,

You're right, I got off subject to defend my profession (my apologies).

Personally, I think a dollar store will do well downtown. These stores are basically a 10,000 sf convenience store version of a grocery store or WM/ Target. Are they a "sexy" tenant? No. Will downtown residents or employees shop there to save money and time versus spending more on everyday items at Culinaria or driving to Brentwood to shop? Yes.

As for your comment about brokers, It would be impossible for me to say that not a single broker has steered a client away from downtown St. Louis. Its likely that it's happened. I just don't agree that it's a widespread problem at all.

Thanks, Kevin