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PostJul 12, 2009#26

http://picasaweb.google.com/claytonhist ... tcarImages#



I knew the green space between Millbrook & University Drive (where the metrolink now runs) was a former streetcar right-of-way. I had no idea that some of the other "parkway" streets in the area like Pershing, Wydown, and DeMun were that way because the center was once a streetcar line.

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PostJul 14, 2009#27

No OSHA, no FICA, no ADA, no unions, no enviromental impact studies, no worker's comp, no unemployment insurance, no health insurance, no 40 hour work week, no over-time pay, no pensions. I do like most of these things, but I often wonder how big an impact all this is on the cost of building infrastructure today when romanticizing about all the building of the past.


you said it brother. we need to go back to a TRUE free market system, similar to the Capitalism we're seeing in China, which is ironically more aggressive than our current form..



I too have some crazy ass affinity for streetcars of yesterday.. you guys have to watch these:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Q7HomB ... re=related check out Pine at 1:55.. wow.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfRorLAx ... re=channel

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PostJul 14, 2009#28

yeah! you guys are right! Screw Teddy Roosevelt and the Progressives!



Who needs child labor laws or inspected meat. Just adds costs to everything.



So what if a 12 yr. old loses a limb building a bridge or you find a thumb in your sausage? We need free, unfettered, China style capitalism :roll:

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PostJul 14, 2009#29

Damn. The 1960s ****ed this city up.

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PostJul 14, 2009#30

brody wrote:Damn. The 1960s ****ed this city up.


Yep. Throwing out all of the old in defense of the "new" was a terrible idea.



And agree with Southsidepride - these laws are in place for a reason. Yes, it screws up infrastructure, but it does save people's lives.



That's not to say we haven't gone too far in some areas in the name of protection.

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PostJul 14, 2009#31

Today I walked along (what I believe is?) the former woodbine loop. It's now just a drive-way sort of thing in the shape of a loop. But it was moving to stand there and imagine that streetcars once turned around there and headed to downtown St. Louis.



Whoever now owns the property is planning on building a one-story office structure there (with parking lot). Shame.

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PostSep 23, 2009#32

The only streetcars that ran on south Kingshighway were between Euclid and Manchester (Taylor and Forest Park lines) and between S. Vandeventer and Devonshire (Southampton).



The construction of the grade separation on Gravois with the Missouri Pacific (Iron Mountain) tracks probably was the reason for the abandonment in 1939 of the Cherokee streetcar line. This was a heavily travelled rail line at the time with frequent passenger trains. MoPac att one time offered commuter rail service. There was a station in Carondolet Park and on South Broadway near River Des Peres.

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PostSep 23, 2009#33

The book "Streets and Streetcars of St. Louis: A Sentimental Journey" is available at most local bookstores. It's a great resource with lots of picture and maps that will blow your mind.



http://www.amazon.com/Streets-Streetcar ... 0964727935



I gave it to my father-in-law for Christmas a few years ago and we had a great time looking through it. I can't imagine what this city would be like if even 5% of those routes remained.

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PostSep 23, 2009#34

The book is great as far as it goes. However, it mainly concentrates on those streetcar lines that were still running after about the late 40's. It doesn't cover the important lines that were abandoned before that time like the Fourth, Tower Grove, Compton and Cherokee. Also, several lines such as Taylor, Cass, Lee, Eighteenth and others which were still running in the late 40's weren't covered.



What's ironic is that so many streetcar lines were lost because of street widening projects: Natural Bridge, Jefferson, Broadway (I-70 & I-55), Cherokee (Gravois), Vandeventer and Market. Others were hindered by the lack of foresight in establishing, early on, sufficient street right of way width to accommodate a growing city. Grand avenue was originally intended to be a wide, "Grand" avenue but the city fathers at the time refused to go along and limited it to 80 feet. The Manchester lines were hindered by being built on one side of the road which meant that one track was running against automobile traffic.



I recently visited Berlin, Germany where they have numerous wide streets, often with streetcar lines on reserved right of way in the center. Some of these lines have been extended recently and there are several line extensions in the planning stage. Many wide streets, especially in West Berlin feature exclusive bus lanes which helps considerably.



Check out this link about St Louis streetcar lines in 1902: http://books.google.com/books?id=9sJHAA ... q=&f=false

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PostNov 13, 2016#35

From 8/8/2015


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PostNov 14, 2016#36

They dug a bunch of old ties out of Washington as well about fifteen years back, if I recall correctly. Nice catch Quincunx.

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PostAug 04, 2024#37

The Urbanist podcast says most streetcar lines were privately built by big land companies trying to sell property which they owned outside town. It worked for getting people to buy the property but the private owners were not able to maintain the lines. The ridership did not pay for that cost. I do not know if that was the case in St Louis or if the street car lines were built and maintained by a government entity.

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PostAug 04, 2024#38

My understanding is Stl streetcar lines were private companies. They were regulated like a public utility and couldn't raise fares without government approval. Raising fares was politically unpopular. They also had to maintain the streets they ran on which turned into a subsidy for drivers. They were taken over by Bi-State when it was created.

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PostAug 04, 2024#39

Yeah collective transportation has rarely worked in private hands, from what I understand even intercity trains weren't that profitable in their golden age, more money was made from moving mail on those trains. And today airlines are heavily subsidized. I know less about the finances of the streetcar companies but that sounds right. 

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