urbanSTL

^ streetcars just don't move fast enough to get people from the northern or southern tip of the city to the central corridor in a reasonable amount of time. i think it's extremely important that we get the N-S line completed ASAP. only then will we have any semblance of an actual backbone. currently, our "backbone" cuts through the city along its shortest dimension and serves a handful of neighborhoods where most people can afford cars instead. with the N-S line completed we would at least have a "fast" mode of transit connecting the far corners of the city and could fill in the intermediate space with more local bus and streetcar lines.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Dec 27, 2017

^ streetcars just don't move fast enough to get people from the northern or southern tip of the city to the central corridor in a reasonable amount of time. i think it's extremely important that we get the N-S line completed ASAP. only then will we have any semblance of an actual backbone. currently, our "backbone" cuts through the city along its shortest dimension and serves a handful of neighborhoods where most people can afford cars instead. with the N-S line completed we would at least have a "fast" mode of transit connecting the far corners of the city and could fill in the intermediate space with more local bus and streetcar lines.

Depends what kind of streetcar. Streetcars with dedicated lanes are pretty much indistinguishable from street running LRT, just smaller vehicles.

I do agree though. It's really disheartening that so many people are dismissive of a North South rail transit component. One of the biggest problems with Metrolink now is that it doesn't serve some of the densest, car dependent neighborhoods in the region. Even if it just a city only line, I think it would do a lot for the utility of the system. We can talk about buses all we want, but in regions like St. Louis that don't have the traffic problems or density we used to, light rail expansion is needed to attract choice riders. I always hear people say they would use Metrolink if it came to their area, but they would never use a bus. I wish the region could get together to build North-South and Westport, but we are really lacking leadership and vision on this issue.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Dec 27, 2017

^ streetcars just don't move fast enough to get people from the northern or southern tip of the city to the central corridor in a reasonable amount of time. i think it's extremely important that we get the N-S line completed ASAP. only then will we have any semblance of an actual backbone. currently, our "backbone" cuts through the city along its shortest dimension and serves a handful of neighborhoods where most people can afford cars instead. with the N-S line completed we would at least have a "fast" mode of transit connecting the far corners of the city and could fill in the intermediate space with more local bus and streetcar lines.

The N-S as currently being studied is mostly street running in the city if not mistaken. Really don't see the huge difference in time as is or time savings. Especially if it takes a street running route down Jeff Ave to reach south tip city and street running down MLK to reach north city w multiple stops are added because of that fact. It is certainly going to be slow going through downtown/central area as proposed.

I just think that N-S is being touted as light rail line but in the city/in reality is not much different than a streetcar. I would have a differing opinion if south city route incorporated UP's RoW/run alongside their tracks thus creating node/TOD opportunities while giving some breathing room with grade separations for quicker downtown into south city & county or vice versa run times as you currently see with most of the present system.

Unfortunately Grand just isn't wide enough to support a separated ROW streetcar. IMO a shorter street running system on Grand between Page and Cherokee Street would be very successful. In a short distance the line would connect 3 hospitals, two universities, Tower Grove Park, the central corridor, and the South Grand strip. Not to mention cutting through dense residential areas and places with a high density potential. SLU would also be able to connect its north and south campuses. This would all center around the Grand Metrolink station and be a feasible 3.6 miles long.

Further extensions north and south wouldn't make as much sense from a transit standpoint but would instead serve as a fantastic neighborhood amenity. Deep south city for example has areas with some pretty limited food and activity options, it would be sweet to have access to a streetcar to take me to my favorite restaurant, bar, or park. That's how it goes in Europe at least.

All that being said I really wish we could get our s*** together as a city and make N/S happen

Heres a question I know this city is continuously conducting studies on feasibility of the N/S line however if the city residents voted for expansion of the system then why are city leaders themselves dragging their feet on this project?
If this falls through then where does all the extra tax money initially collected for the project will be directed too?

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Dec 28, 2017

Unfortunately Grand just isn't wide enough to support a separated ROW streetcar. IMO a shorter street running system on Grand between Page and Cherokee Street would be very successful. In a short distance the line would connect 3 hospitals, two universities, Tower Grove Park, the central corridor, and the South Grand strip. Not to mention cutting through dense residential areas and places with a high density potential. SLU would also be able to connect its north and south campuses. This would all center around the Grand Metrolink station and be a feasible 3.6 miles long.

Further extensions north and south wouldn't make as much sense from a transit standpoint but would instead serve as a fantastic neighborhood amenity. Deep south city for example has areas with some pretty limited food and activity options, it would be sweet to have access to a streetcar to take me to my favorite restaurant, bar, or park. That's how it goes in Europe at least.

All that being said I really wish we could get our s*** together as a city and make N/S happen

I don't think ROW line belongs on Grand, at least South Grand. It's become safe for pedestrians, is walkable and, in general, an attractive commercial corridor. I do think Grand could still be served by something not as blisteringly fast, but more attractive than buses.

In the end, at least for me, buses aren't attractive, and I think other people largely believe that. Light rail feels more polished and higher end. I get that buses do the same thing for cheaper, but it just doesn't have the same feel.

The taxes were supposed to generate something like 2.2 billion, correct? Wasn't the Shrewsbury addition something like $450 million? I wish our engineers would find a compromise on utilizing existing rail lines but have the flexibility to build elevated where necessary. It would shed the streetcar feel and also improve efficiency through densely populated areas. Elevated all down Jefferson doesn't make sense, but there's also a worry in the back of my head about a Metrolink car ripping down Jefferson and hitting a child or something. It would have barriers, sure, but still feels unsafe for whatever reason.

I don't think ROW line belongs on Grand, at least South Grand. It's become safe for pedestrians, is walkable and, in general, an attractive commercial corridor. I do think Grand could still be served by something not as blisteringly fast, but more attractive than buses.

In the end, at least for me, buses aren't attractive, and I think other people largely believe that. Light rail feels more polished and higher end. I get that buses do the same thing for cheaper, but it just doesn't have the same feel.

The taxes were supposed to generate something like 2.2 billion, correct? Wasn't the Shrewsbury addition something like $450 million? I wish our engineers would find a compromise on utilizing existing rail lines but have the flexibility to build elevated where necessary. It would shed the streetcar feel and also improve efficiency through densely populated areas. Elevated all down Jefferson doesn't make sense, but there's also a worry in the back of my head about a Metrolink car ripping down Jefferson and hitting a child or something. It would have barriers, sure, but still feels unsafe for whatever reason.

Have you been on Jefferson lately? I live off of it now and would never let my kid be down there because it is currently dangerous with cars ripping down it. I would hope that a Metrolink would bring about changes to the street and MORE safety there.

ImprovSTL wrote: ↑

Dec 28, 2017

Have you been on Jefferson lately? I live off of it now and would never let my kid be down there because it is currently dangerous with cars ripping down it. I would hope that a Metrolink would bring about changes to the street and MORE safety there.

Almost every day. I wholeheartedly agree. I suppose it can't be any worse than it already is, I just don't think a giant train is easier to slow down, stop or move out of the way than a car.

dredger wrote: ↑

Dec 27, 2017

The N-S as currently being studied is mostly street running in the city if not mistaken. Really don't see the huge difference in time as is or time savings. Especially if it takes a street running route down Jeff Ave to reach south tip city and street running down MLK to reach north city w multiple stops are added because of that fact. It is certainly going to be slow going through downtown/central area as proposed.

I just think that N-S is being touted as light rail line but in the city/in reality is not much different than a streetcar. I would have a differing opinion if south city route incorporated UP's RoW/run alongside their tracks thus creating node/TOD opportunities while giving some breathing room with grade separations for quicker downtown into south city & county or vice versa run times as you currently see with most of the present system.

The favored alignment is about 16 miles. About four miles of that is on a dedicated right of way in the middle of 55, which would be entirely similar to the present Metrolink system. The rest is street running, but it will be along Jefferson, Florrisant, and 14th or similar exceptionally broad streets, and I believe it would be functionally in a separated right of way in the middle of the streets. They need a road diet anyway, to be frank. So I don't know that it would necessarily run like a streetcar. I'd guess it will be more like light rail with a lot of grade crossings, as the current red line between Taylor and Sarah. But it won't, in any case, be a car running with traffic inside the traffic lanes as in Kansas City or along Delmar. It will be in an island in the middle of the road, quite separated from everything else.

How fast the timings are will, I suppose, depend on whether they put in gates at the crossings and how many stops they schedule. The Jefferson segment isn't onerously long, and it goes through an area where such an alignment could be very useful. On the north side it would be nice if you could thin the street running a bit, but I really don't see where you'd put it without moving it deep into the industrial riverfront and far away from most of the people that could use it. There's no good equivalent of the Iron Mountain sub's Oak Hill stretch running through the middle of neighborhoods up there. I really wish there were a way to use the old IT subway, as it ended just more than a quarter mile from the Washington Avenue tunnel and it would have gotten you in and out of downtown quickly as far as N. Florissant. That could have been a real asset. But it's filled now, so that bird has flown.

But the big difference, I suppose, lies in the fact that this will be an integrated system using the same passes as the rest of the system, and thus sharing costs and riders. That alone should make it quite different from most of the pure streetcar systems discussed.

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

Dec 28, 2017

ImprovSTL wrote: ↑

Dec 28, 2017

Have you been on Jefferson lately? I live off of it now and would never let my kid be down there because it is currently dangerous with cars ripping down it. I would hope that a Metrolink would bring about changes to the street and MORE safety there.

Almost every day. I wholeheartedly agree. I suppose it can't be any worse than it already is, I just don't think a giant train is easier to slow down, stop or move out of the way than a car.

Yeah, I guess my hope/understanding would be that the rail line would make them upgrade crossings, streetscape, etc to make it more pedestrian friendly since the train will be for pedestrians mostly.

True.

Wish we could use existing rail ROW (I don't know of any existing rail that goes N/S through denser areas), though, or build elevated and build this in two phases with further funding along the way for the second phase if this is successful. That would never happen though -- probably way too expensive. I do know the roads definitely need a diet, and this will help with that, though.

There is movement on the Facebook page and business journal. I’d take it with a grain of salt, but there’s movement.


https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql_pe ... cwOTk2NDkx


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I say scrap N-S Metrolink and use that money for a N-S streetcar. I think more transit on the central corridor without rail service to North and South city is a bad idea and political sh*tshow waiting to happen. 

goat314 wrote:I say scrap N-S Metrolink and use that money for a N-S streetcar. I think more transit on the central corridor without rail service to North and South city is a bad idea and political sh*tshow waiting to happen. 

Just do this with BRT. One of the largest arguments in the article was the fixed route spurring development, but BRT would do the same at a much cheaper cost.


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“The suggested route would be along Forest Park Avenue to Grand Avenue (phase one); then from Grand Avenue along Olive Street to Tucker Boulevard, then along Market Street to Broadway (phase two)”

This is the most redundant route They could have possibly chosen Give me Wash Ave or Delmar transitioning to Lindell at Grand Center.

I know many of us enjoy doodling streetcar routes... right?
Anyways TGIF. Here is mine.

Stops:
Hi-Pointe
Saint Louis Zoo/Dogtown
Forest Park Community College
Science Center
Forest Park Southeast
CWE
West Pine
Newstead
SLU @ Spring
SLU @ Grand
Midtown
Jefferson
Soccer Stadium
Downtown etc.

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Jun 12, 2020

I know many of us enjoy doodling streetcar routes... right?
Anyways TGIF. Here is mine.

Stops:
Hi-Pointe
Saint Louis Zoo/Dogtown
Forest Park Community College
Science Center
Forest Park Southeast
CWE
West Pine
Newstead
SLU @ Spring
SLU @ Grand
Midtown
Jefferson
Soccer Stadium
Downtown etc.

Why waste money on a duplicating metrolink thru CC? Start this line at BJC run it down Kingshighway to Chippewa go right all the way down to Hampton Target.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Jun 12, 2020

Why waste money on a duplicating metrolink thru CC?  Start this line at BJC run it down Kingshighway to Chippewa go right all the way down to Hampton Target.

I think that this would be for those wanting to travel shorter distances that are too far to walk. Let's face it, the Metrolink is far from convenient: there are long wait times, stops are few and far between, and it is largely unsafe (coming from someone who takes it frequently). If this was free, you could just hop on and ride it for 15 minutes and be at your destination without the hassle/money of having to call an Uber/Lyft. This is also a better route that requires less walking in general; it is more centralized. That being said, I think that the line should run down Grand, turn at Arsenal, run-down Kingshighway, then turn at Chippewa. Could a streetcar even make it up that hill at Kingshighway and Chippewa? Who knows.

23 miles and around $900,000,000 in cost. 

Can we run buses every 6 mins instead?

I'd extend the line up Clayton Road to Brentwood, and then north into Clayton. 

I'd like one along Magnolia or Arsenal then maybe curving north to hit Soulard too. 

I would like to see a (free) modern streetcar line go through downtown on the much wider Wash Ave. Being further north it would be less redundant to Metrolink and would hopefully turn Wash Ave into a corridor of development between the Eads Bridge and Grand Center.

Spring could be used to transfer the streetcar onto Lindell in the CWE.

Line could also go south on Broadway and 4th, extending down the 7th/Broadway corridor until meeting up with the N/S at Chippewa and Jefferson. Road is very wide through this entire ROW so plenty of room to build. This would connect the Near South Side, Soulard, and East Cherokee to downtown. Not to mention the Lemp Brewery if that should ever be redeveloped to its full potential. 

This would also open up Kosciusko as one of the best areas to build wide swaths of dense TOD. Easy access to downtown and Soulard makes this a slam dunk.