dweebe wrote:True: nobody will be happy. The one bad thing about the dome is all the rich and old fans who sit down in the lower bowl doing the following:
-knitting
-reading the newspaper during the game
-eating bagles and creme cheese
-give you dirty looks and tell you to sit down when you cheer
-never applaud or cheer once during the game.
If the games were outside they wouldn't be down there, sitting on their hands. I've sat down in the lower bowl 5 or 6 times and its amazing how dull it is down there.
We have lower bowl seats, but our section is generally pretty good in terms of cheering and making noise. Apparently the other sections aren't as good. I've sat in the club level a few times, and I thought I was going to get kicked out.
In San Francisco, they can't find any way to build a new stadium in the city. But growing suburbs are anxious to be the home of the 49ers. Santa Clara is the current bidder. That could happen here to. I could imagine O'Fallon or Edwardsville or Fenton thinking it would be a boon to business to have the Rams playing in an open air stadium in their cities.
In Miami, the team owner built the stadium with his own money. That probably won't happen here, because the owner could probably move the team to Las Vegas and get a stadium for free.
I have one quesiton. I bought two 30 year PSLs in 1995. What happens if the Rams move after 20 years? Do I get my money back?
Gary Kreie wrote:In San Francisco, they can't find any way to build a new stadium in the city. But growing suburbs are anxious to be the home of the 49ers. Santa Clara is the current bidder. That could happen here to. I could imagine O'Fallon or Edwardsville or Fenton thinking it would be a boon to business to have the Rams playing in an open air stadium in their cities.
In Miami, the team owner built the stadium with his own money. That probably won't happen here, because the owner could probably move the team to Las Vegas and get a stadium for free.
I have one quesiton. I bought two 30 year PSLs in 1995. What happens if the Rams move after 20 years? Do I get my money back?
We have more than enough vacant lots and abandonment to accommodate a new football stadium in the city limits and if Missouri don't want em', I'm sure Metro East would willingly build them one, more money in the Illinois tax base going straight upstate.
dweebe wrote:True: nobody will be happy. The one bad thing about the dome is all the rich and old fans who sit down in the lower bowl doing the following:
-knitting
-reading the newspaper during the game
-eating bagels and cream cheese
-give you dirty looks and tell you to sit down when you cheer
-never applaud or cheer once during the game.
If the games were outside they wouldn't be down there, sitting on their hands. I've sat down in the lower bowl 5 or 6 times and its amazing how dull it is down there.
We have lower bowl seats, but our section is generally pretty good in terms of cheering and making noise. Apparently the other sections aren't as good. I've sat in the club level a few times, and I thought I was going to get kicked out.
I assume you sit in one of the corners or right behind the goal posts? I've sat down there twice and you're right: those fans are better. But between the goal lines is bad. If I won the lottery I would get upper bowl seats.
MSU South Sider wrote: St. Louis does not need another vacant building, especially of that size. ...I will happily tailgate somewhere else to have an out door stadium. Besides, if you have to watch your team loose...I would rather do it outside
Didn't we have an outdoor stadium named Busch? As for a potentially "vacant building", the Rams currently occupy it about 10 days per year. How much more vacant is it really going to get? Just continue to market it heavily for conventions. It's amazing that between malls (Northwest Plaza, Crestwood, etc) and stadiums we cycle between indoors and out according to the current fad and public money is always footing the bill.
The entire metro area (both people and all the local fiefdoms) is repeatedly accused on this site of being backwards and conservative, so how about making the following PROGRESSIVE statement:
"Dear Rams Organization,
Due to other urgent priorities like a failed city school system, a high crime rate, crumbling infrastructure and the quest to make quality of life improvements that will continue to attract new residents while keeping existing ones, we've decided to focus our efforts and financial resources on them and not you. We realize that it may cause a slight drop in downtown bar business and the parking lot attendants won't be waving in as many West County earth f*ckers on certain weekends. However, we'll survive by continuing to seek out and lure companies whose employees ALL make respectable salaries instead of subsidizing a select group of millionaires. We thank you for the memories and wish you good luck in the future.
Due to other urgent priorities like a failed city school system, a high crime rate, crumbling infrastructure and the quest to make quality of life improvements that will continue to attract new residents while keeping existing ones, we've decided to stop making investments in improving the city's morale. This also means no Fair St. Louis and other events that may benefit the area. To hell with morale, it is more important to throw money at problems that can't be solved by money alone.
We realize that it may cause a slight drop in downtown bar business and the parking lot attendants won't be waving in as many West County folks that have sex with the earth (huh?) on certain weekends. However, we'll survive by continuing to seek out and lure companies whose employees ALL make respectable salaries instead of subsidizing a select group of millionaires. Like the communists (except even they had their black markets of inequity.)
We thank you for the memories and wish you good luck in the future.
innov8ion wrote: To hell with morale, it is more important to throw money at problems that can't be solved by money alone.
I agree with you there. Throwing money at crime, schools, etc. won't solve those problems. It takes vigilant attention and care to fix those problems. At the same time, I don't want to pay to build another stadium, nor do I necessarily want to pay for the VP fair (too much soggy bread on the ground!) (Is the VP fair publicly funded?)
innov8ion wrote:Like the communists (except even they had their black markets of inequity.)
What exactly do the communists have to do with this? Who are you, Joe McCarthy? Can we say ad-hominem and straw man? You seem much cooler than that innov8ion! No one advocated state ownership of anything. In fact, quite the opposite.
The facts are plain. There is a rapidly growing difference in compensation for upper management compared vs. average employees for most US companies. Blueeyes was simply asking for a more level playing field in terms of compensation. Simply upper management and boards that care about their employees as more than commodities, or at least activists paying vigilant attention to the activities of upper management and boards. No government involvement is necessary for that.
I was joking. Blueeyes seemed to be grousing about the astronomical pay of the players. Sure they get paid a lot, but salaries are set that high because of supply and demand -- a capitalist, not communist sociopolitical paradigm.
It can't make much sense to be derogatory to ticket holders, wherever they may live. Plenty of folks in the city drive large SUV's as well.
I wonder what the average life of an NFL stadium is nowadays. A 20 year old in 2015 should still be going fairly strong. Whatever the case, the stadium will probably be used as a bargaining chip for negotiations around the 2015 timeframe. Here's a list of current stadiums with their birthdays listed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cu ... e_stadiums.
I am a little surprised that no one has mentioned what is going on in Indy with them getting awarded the 2012 Superbowl.
I don't want to make this into a Indy v. StL fight, but how can you not be impressed with what is going on there? Yearly Indy 500's & Brickyards, Final Fours like every 4 years, a booming convention business, heck even IUPUI regularly holds national events like track and field and swimming and diving and Nike Basketball Camps. Now, the crown jewel, the Superbowl.
Can we hire some people away from them or what?
But, the point I want to make with this is that I don't think the Dome is salvageable. Whoever made the point earlier that it was built at the end of a generation was right. There is not a lot you can do with it to save it. We should leave it there for conventions and concerts and whatnot, but as a football venue it is dead in the water.
So, we need to start planning for what's next. Are we going to be bent over a table by the Rams? Yep, but that is the game and if you don't play it someone else will and the team will leave. The Rams do not have deep roots in Saint Louis and I do not think it would be very difficult for them to leave.
So, what's next? I think some good ideas have been mentioned and I love the idea of an open air stadium right on the river, but I think it is more likely than not that it will be on the other side of the river.
I am sure city planners and politicians in Illinois are already scheming on this. The Soccer Stadium and the Racetrack is a nice get, but building a new football stadium on the East Side would forever end the inferiority syndrome and would be the final signal that the Metro East has arrived.
After what happened with the Cardinals and the public financing, I just don't see Missouri getting this done at all. If anything has to go through the City of Saint Louis or the Missouri Legislature, you are looking at years of political battles.
Not so with Illinois. If it is on the Illinois side, the deal could really be wrapped up in less than a year. Money is a bit tight right now in the State of Illinois and there are budget fights, but Illinois is pretty good about spending big on the necessary projects. Especially when it comes to Downstate projects as Downstate voters are a crucial swing vote between the Chicago City Liberals and the Chicago Suburban Republicans. So Downstate usually gets the big projects that it wants and can justify. I think it would be pretty dang easy to justify building the Stadium on the East Side.
So, my take is this. We should forget about saving the Dome and start planning for a new stadium. Although Saint Louis should be included in those discussions, people should be willing to accept Illinois as a legitimate player in those discussions as that is the place it can be done the quickest and simplest and may be the only way to save the team. And, since we are going to build a new stadium (I like the retractable roof idea), we should start angling for a Superbowl as well. It took Indy 3 tries to get the owners to approve a Superbowl there. When the new owners take over (for me it is not if but when) they can use the Superbowl and the new stadium as leverage.
I know this situation looks crappy, but I see it as an opportunity. If we got our stuff together we could say to the NFL that here is the deal: you get a new owner, you get a new stadium in a good sports city ... in exchange for a Superbowl.
I'd probably unload my PSLs if the Rams were to play on the east side.
I don't want to make this into a Indy v. StL fight, but how can you not be impressed with what is going on there? Yearly Indy 500's & Brickyards, Final Fours like every 4 years, a booming convention business, heck even IUPUI regularly holds national events like track and field and swimming and diving and Nike Basketball Camps. Now, the crown jewel, the Superbowl.
In fairness, the Sports Commission and other organizations have brought us...
-Men's Final Four (and hopefully we will enter the rotation of host cities)
-Women's Final Four
-Frozen Four
-Wrestling Championships (and is attempting to become the permanent home)
-NCAA soccer championship
-MLB All-Star Game
-Mizzou-Illinois football
-Figure skating championships
-US Senior Open and other golf tournaments
-Missouri Valley Conference men's and women's b-ball tournaments
-NAIA track and field championships
I'm sure I'm missing some other events. Not too shabby.
I'd probably unload my PSLs if the Rams were to play on the east side.
I don't want to make this into a Indy v. StL fight, but how can you not be impressed with what is going on there? Yearly Indy 500's & Brickyards, Final Fours like every 4 years, a booming convention business, heck even IUPUI regularly holds national events like track and field and swimming and diving and Nike Basketball Camps. Now, the crown jewel, the Superbowl.
In fairness, the Sports Commission and other organizations have brought us...
-Men's Final Four (and hopefully we will enter the rotation of host cities)
-Women's Final Four
-Frozen Four
-Wrestling Championships (and is attempting to become the permanent home)
-NCAA soccer championship
-MLB All-Star Game
-Mizzou-Illinois football
-Figure skating championships
-US Senior Open and other golf tournaments
-Missouri Valley Conference men's and women's b-ball tournaments
-NAIA track and field championships
I'm sure I'm missing some other events. Not too shabby.
Well, that "I won't go to Illinois" attitude is exactly the kind of attitude we need to start combating right now. I think if it were an open air, retractable roof stadium with views into across the river onto the Arch and downtown ... no offense, but I think you would go.
Illinois is probably the best hope to get a new stadium built. Illinois would be willing to bend over backwards and would almost surely put it right across the river so it could have the best sightlines and be as close to downtown as possible. I hope that when it comes down to building it in Illinois and keeping the Rams v. losing the Rams altogether, people don't let their ignorant stereotypes get in the way and cost us a football franchise.
And your list, I agree it is not too shabby and I would add World Series games to it and I have nothing against the Sports Commission, but Indy is regularly luring the highest profile events and now they have the biggest event of all ... that takes more than a good Sports Commission ... that takes good people at all levels of government and business working together. On that measure, I think Saint Louis is a step behind.
Maybe they should add a $135 facilities charge to every ticket for the next 7 years. That'll raise $500,000,000 for a new stadium. No public money is used and fans will still be watching local football after 2015.
$500,000,000 / (7 yrs x 8 games/yr x 66,000 seats/game) = $135/seat
Does anyone know why St. Louis was never on any list to receive a Superbowl after we built our new facility? I used to always chalk it up to our winter climate, but Detroit, Indy, NY...all on the heals of new stadiums. Why did we not receive this?
Not enough seats, hotel rooms (and after JAX, they won't breeze over that issue ever again) and a long standing unspoken reprimand to Georgia Frontiere for moving the Rams to St. Louis from the 2nd largest TV market after the league did everything they could to make it impossible. Well Almost impossible...
I think Illinois is a great idea, but only if it is right on the river, directly across from downtown and if the team retains the "St. Louis" signifier (no Brooklyn rams... or St. Louis Rams of Sauget, for that matter). Think about the great TV shots of DT St. Louis from that location? And it would solve one of the biggest image prolems of St. Louis - the horrid east-facing view of Illinois from Downtown.
TheWayoftheArch wrote:Not enough seats, hotel rooms (and after JAX, they won't breeze over that issue ever again) and a long standing unspoken reprimand to Georgia Frontiere for moving the Rams to St. Louis from the 2nd largest TV market after the league did everything they could to make it impossible. Well Almost impossible...
Also, it was after the Rams moved where the NFL started the whole "build us a domed stadium: we'll give you a Super Bowl" thing. Basicly the NFL told the cities of Detroit and Indianapolis that if the put enough public money into the stadiums and make them domed: they award the city a Super Bowl less than a five years after opening.
That's why Kansas City and New Jersey aren't getting Super Bowls: they didn't pony up enough money to put roofs over their new stadiums.
Fun how a thread based on the premise "The Rams are Staying" turns into "Where Should the Rams Move?"
blueeyes wrote:"Dear Rams Organization,
Due to other urgent priorities like a failed city school system, a high crime rate, crumbling infrastructure and the quest to make quality of life improvements that will continue to attract new residents while keeping existing ones, we've decided to focus our efforts and financial resources on them and not you. We realize that it may cause a slight drop in downtown bar business and the parking lot attendants won't be waving in as many West County earth f*ckers on certain weekends. However, we'll survive by continuing to seek out and lure companies whose employees ALL make respectable salaries instead of subsidizing a select group of millionaires. We thank you for the memories and wish you good luck in the future.
Sincerely,
The Citizens of St. Louis"
Please do not presume to include my name onto that letter. Not all StL residents share in your opinions.
Gone Corporate wrote:Fun how a thread based on the premise "The Rams are Staying" turns into "Where Should the Rams Move?"
blueeyes wrote:"Dear Rams Organization,
Due to other urgent priorities like a failed city school system, a high crime rate, crumbling infrastructure and the quest to make quality of life improvements that will continue to attract new residents while keeping existing ones, we've decided to focus our efforts and financial resources on them and not you. We realize that it may cause a slight drop in downtown bar business and the parking lot attendants won't be waving in as many West County earth f*ckers on certain weekends. However, we'll survive by continuing to seek out and lure companies whose employees ALL make respectable salaries instead of subsidizing a select group of millionaires. We thank you for the memories and wish you good luck in the future.
Sincerely,
The Citizens of St. Louis"
Please do not presume to include my name onto that letter. Not all StL residents share in your opinions.
I figured it was obvious that everything I type (sarcastic or otherwise) is my own opinion and no one else's. As such, some people will disagree but hopefully others will be persuaded that additional public money should not be used to finance sports teams/stadiums.
I figured it was obvious that everything I type (sarcastic or otherwise) is my own opinion and no one else's. As such, some people will disagree but hopefully others will be persuaded that additional public money should not be used to finance sports teams/stadiums.
Great idea. Next time you can sign it as "blueeyes" instead of "The Citizens of St. Louis."
As such, some people will disagree but hopefully others will be persuaded that additional public money should not be used to finance sports teams/stadiums.
How is this any different than public money going to Zoos, Art museums, or concert/theatre halls? Just because the scale is larger doesn't mean that they're any less a relevant aspect of American culture. Yeah, you pay to go to a sports game, but you pay to go to the zoo or science center in every other city in the world practically.
Or did people forget that sports are part of our culture?
As such, some people will disagree but hopefully others will be persuaded that additional public money should not be used to finance sports teams/stadiums.
How is this any different than public money going to Zoos, Art museums, or concert/theatre halls? Just because the scale is larger doesn't mean that they're any less a relevant aspect of American culture. Yeah, you pay to go to a sports game, but you pay to go to the zoo or science center in every other city in the world practically.
Or did people forget that sports are part of our culture?
I see a huge difference. Is the St. Louis Symphony part of a multi-billion dollar corporation like the NFL? Last time I heard, they were running a deficit. The benefit to a tax enabling free admission to zoos and museums is that a flyover city like St. Louis can use it as a tool to draw in tourist income year-round for hotels, restaurants, gas, taxes, etc while allowing all classes of its own residents to enjoy them free of charge. Do the Rams do that? I bet a majority of its ticketholders drive in, park, watch the game and immediately drive home (8 times per year) without spending an additional dime to stimulate the local economy.
As such, some people will disagree but hopefully others will be persuaded that additional public money should not be used to finance sports teams/stadiums.
How is this any different than public money going to Zoos, Art museums, or concert/theatre halls? Just because the scale is larger doesn't mean that they're any less a relevant aspect of American culture. Yeah, you pay to go to a sports game, but you pay to go to the zoo or science center in every other city in the world practically.
Or did people forget that sports are part of our culture?
I see a huge difference. Is the St. Louis Symphony part of a multi-billion dollar corporation like the NFL? Last time I heard, they were running a deficit. The benefit to a tax enabling free admission to zoos and museums is that a flyover city like St. Louis can use it as a tool to draw in tourist income year-round for hotels, restaurants, gas, taxes, etc while allowing all classes of its own residents to enjoy them free of charge. Do the Rams do that? I bet a majority of its ticketholders drive in, park, watch the game and immediately drive home (8 times per year) without spending an additional dime to stimulate the local economy.
Other things to keep in mind... The zoo and art museum use fundraising and corporate support for expansions. The zoo still resides in its 98 year old surroundings, Powell Hall is 83 yrs old with the orchestra playing there for 42 yrs. The art museum is located in a 104 yr old building that will be expanded rather than demolished and rebuilt.
