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PostOct 20, 2006#151

The American Dream of upward mobility implies a right to education. This is unenumerated yet it is implicit with the principal of equality. Individuals born down-and-out are automatically at a disadvantage. Public School seeks to level the playing field and enable opportunity for all. The problem is that they are underfunded and often focused on horrible standardized tests.



Redirecting public funds to private schools is not an option. Not only does this violate the separation of Church and State, but it would mirror the problem of "bad schools."



The "bad students" would be admitted to the fiscally challenged private schools. Entrance exams would be lowered for those tax dollars. The influx of these students would be too much for the staff to handle. In short there would still be a hierarchy of schools receiving funds from the Federal Government except now they will be indoctrinating our children with religious dogma.



This will not eliminate the problem. Vouchers will only replicate the problem under a publicly funded private system.

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PostOct 20, 2006#152

Ok whoa whoa I gotta say something here.


Doug wrote:The American Dream of upward mobility implies a right to education. This is unenumerated yet it is implicit with the principal of equality. Individuals born down-and-out are automatically at a disadvantage. Public School seeks to level the playing field and enable opportunity for all. The problem is that they are underfunded and often focused on horrible standardized tests.
I agreed with you up until the bold part. The schools have plenty of funding.


Redirecting public funds to private schools is not an option. Not only does this violate the separation of Church and State, but it would mirror the problem of "bad schools."
Chruch and state? There are non-religous private schools, and plenty of them. Also so what s a catholic family wants to take their share of their property tax dollars and provide a catholic education to their child, I see nothing wrong with that.


The "bad students" would be admitted to the fiscally challenged private schools. Entrance exams would be lowered for those tax dollars. The influx of these students would be too much for the staff to handle. In short there would still be a hierarchy of schools receiving funds from the Federal Government except now they will be indoctrinating our children with religious dogma.
We already discussed this earlier in this thread today. The schools would not be able to "select" the students. Admitace would depend on income level and first come first serve. Extremely successful schools could spin off new campuses.


This will not eliminate the problem. Vouchers will only replicate the problem under a publicly funded private system.
I don't see how

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PostOct 20, 2006#153

Urban Elitist wrote:Well, I knew it was only a matter of time until we got some off-the-wall post from you. You have really outdine yourself this time because you shocked even me the the extremeness of your position.


Bastiat wrote:This is a better system than vouchers because it gives the parent full control of their child's education. Vouchers come with strings attached because the school has to be approved, certain standards must be met, etc, etc. People have a certain concept of a "one-size fits all" education. Sitting at a desk from 8am to 3pm is automatically presumed to be better than a child actively persuing interests at a library or museum with his parents, regardless of which child learns more. With the money saved from taxes, parents would have the option of homeschooling, getting a tutor, sending their child to a school that focuses on their strong point, grouping together with other parents to hire teachers or sending the child to a traditional private school. The main point is that the parents decide. They are not forced to hand their flesh and blood over to some stranger whom they've never met. Really, people are more cautious when picking an automechanic than they are when picking teachers for their children!
Yes or the already poor and uneducated parents could blow their childs "education money" on rims or gold chains. I perfer the governemt being mixed up into education, regulating it, and assuring that even if the child has bad parents(who would just waste property tax savings), he can still at least have a sliver of hope to succeed.



What about renters? They won't save property taxes/ are you assuming ladlords will lower rents to compensate, I doubt it.



Not only are the poor more likely to blow their property tax savings(assuming the get them), they will have a smaller amount of money to spend on school. A person in CWE saving property taxes will have 5x as much money for education as someone in North City living in a four flat. What you are advocating is condeming the poor forever via an insurmountable class divide. I can't be in favor of that.


I'm sorry to rattle your brain. Here's another shocker: the free market should be able to deliver mail!! *evil cackle*



But seriously, people in america today echo the Soviets under Communism when it was suggested that agriculture be privately run. "But we'd all starve!!" "If we didn't have public schools how would our children get an education?!"



Rather than just reading the first two paragraphs and emotionally responding, how about you finish reading the rest of it. If you had done this in the first place, you'd see that the poor people that you so condescendingly had written off as unable to run their own lives and thus needing "control", are much better at providing for their children than the "guardians" that you like to appoint for them. I gave two examples and provided links. Perhaps when you have had your full of ad hominem attacks you can read these and provide a constructive argument.





As a side note, I know my views are a little extreme, but sticking to same old formula that hasn't worked in the past will not work in the future. Many of these problems are not confined to St. Louis, but are prevalent in almost every other Metropolitan area (such as education). St. Louis needs to stick its neck out on the line and start making some bold moves based on new ideas. I, for one, am sick of having to keep using hand-me-down urban renewal ideas from other cities. This is our chance to be progressive and try some new approaches to problems. The historic tax credit was a great move and it spurred development, but the city is really going to need to make more changes to regain its status. Historic tax credits will get you some rehabs in the safer areas, but it's not going to fix North St. Louis overnight. It's great to see progress happening in the city, but if it is going to move so slow that we're excited about a Qdoba moving into Lindell Marketplace, much of the city will have fallen apart by the time progress reaches it...



We need a way to entice more people and families to move to the city. I think that no property taxes would be a pretty loud statement that the city wants people to move back in. Live in the county and pay thousands in property taxes or live in the city and pay none. I think a lot of people will pick the latter. I think people from Clayton and Ladue would be moving back into the Central West End. I could see a rehab boom in North St. Louis making current progress look like nothing (and the current residents not having to worry about gentrification because threat of rising property taxes is gone). I really think this is an everyone wins situation.

PostOct 20, 2006#154

stlmike wrote:When Bastiat says that education isn't a right, I think that is wrong. The reason he says this is because, for it to be a right, some government assistance and requirement is needed for this and this doesn't fit into his worldview.


I do not believe in positive rights. Things like education and healthcare require resources and labor. Implying that these things are rights means that people have a right to other people's property and labor. This conflicts with the rights of life, liberty, and property.



I do not deny that education, healthcare, or food are good and necessary things in person's life. I disagree that it is necessary to use force against others to make sure everyone recieves these things. I provided examples of tuition-free private schools in St. Louis and private schools in the slums of Africa outperforming the public schools catering mainly to the middleclass.

PostOct 20, 2006#155

steve wrote:Some public school systems work. Others don't. Some public schools are better than some private schools.



How does that fit in your black-and-white world?


It is easy to get caught up in the use of the terms "free market" and "government" as if these are entities unto their ownselves. The reality is that they are simply the sum of the individuals engaging in them. They are ways of organizing human action. The free market is based on voluntary exchange. (Two individuals agree to make a mutually beneficial trade) The government is based on coercive exchange. (The government collects taxes from its citizens whether or not they want to pay them by threatening violent action if they do not)



With such radically different approaches, it is not suprising that we see different results. With the free market, the seller must entice the consumer and convince him to buy the product. He cannot force him to buy. On the otherhand, government as the provider of a good already has the consumer's money eitherway, so what incentive exists for "it" (the individuals in government) to supply a better product?



Admittedly, financial incentives are not the only ones. Human beings are complex creatures and there are a lot of variables. The financial incentive structure does create a tendency towards bad government goods and better private goods, but it does not say that all government products will be bad and all private ventures will be good. (After all, even a broken clock is right at least twice a day :lol: )



The market has thousands of business failures every year. Not every entrepreneur can satisfy the wants of the consumers and convince them to buy/continue to buy. But that's the beautiful part, they're allowed to go out of business rather continue to fail like our current city schools.



There are some successful public schools. There can be good teachers and administrators who care more about the children than the money. Teachers and the administrators might be motivated to avoid having to deal with the complaining of jewish mothers (I know quite a few and they all REALLY care about their child's education; look at Clayton). Certainly this goodwill/non-financial motivation can result in a good education for the children, but there is really no punishment if it does not exist.



I hope that answers your question.

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PostOct 21, 2006#156

I think everyone in a democracy should be able to count on the fact that they're voting with a populace of people who we all collectively attempted to educate to a certain standard. It's worth the taxes.

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PostOct 21, 2006#157

This thread is really blowing my mind. Kudos to eveybody for their comments, even if we don't agree on everything.



I'm big on admitting things and I will admit that as far as I know there is nothing in the constitution that says everybody has a right to an education. That said, I think it's important that everyone get a chance for an education. As we get closer to a world economy, ours will suffer if our kids can't compete with kids from other countries like China and India.



As for getting rid of property taxes, I just can't sign off on that one. The point was made by Urban Elitist that renters wouldn't benefit and people with low property taxes wouldn't benefit very much. That alone creates a problem. Factor in parents that would use their savings for drugs or a new plasma before spending a dime to educate their children and the idea just doesn't smack me as a good one. I read the articles and even though I'm impressed, I don't think it's a practical idea that would work. Or maybe I just don't have as much faith in our citizens as Bastiat does. At least you're thinking outside the box Bastiat. I admire that.


Doug wrote:



Redirecting public funds to private schools is not an option. Not only does this violate the separation of Church and State, but it would mirror the problem of "bad schools."



The "bad students" would be admitted to the fiscally challenged private schools. Entrance exams would be lowered for those tax dollars. The influx of these students would be too much for the staff to handle. In short there would still be a hierarchy of schools receiving funds from the Federal Government except now they will be indoctrinating our children with religious dogma.



This will not eliminate the problem. Vouchers will only replicate the problem under a publicly funded private system.


As far as vouchers creating the same problems, I don't see that at all. The private schools funded by vouchers would be new schools, similar to charter schools. They would not be the super exclusive schools we are already familar with. Funding would not depend on test scores but rather on attendance. Admittance would not depend on test scores either, it would be a first come, first serve system.



And if the school can continue to convince the parents that they are providing a decent education, the parents will continue to enroll their kids there and the school will continue to receive funding from the government.



As for the Church/State thing. We can limit funds to schools that aren't religious. Although I would prefer leaving that choice to the parents.



My main point, and I'll say it again, is that I would like to see the private sector running schools rather than the government. The government could regulate the schools and set certain standards but the school would run itself. Certain regulations could include a first come, first serve policy, no religion in school, a healthy meal policy, etc. While I can see why many would argue for certain test score minimums, I agree that it sets an inproper motivation for schools to educate for test scores only. I would prefer leaving the quality test of the school up to the parents. If the parents think the school is doing a good job then they can vote by keeping their child in the school. Obviously, this is complicated and hopefully smarter people than me would be the ones coming up with the final solution.



And finally, I agree with Bastiat, I think the United States Postal Service is another great example of how the goverment is incapable of running a business. While it's true the private sector would probably want to avoid delivering mail to certain areas, there are ways around that problem. If you look closely at your phone bill, we pay certain vague taxes to fund phone service in remote rural areas. I think the government forces the phone companies to provide the service. I'm cool with that. Imagine if the government was your cell phone carrier. Come to think of it, considering half my bill is taxes...



Solutions are out there. Let's find them.

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PostOct 21, 2006#158

A few points:


The point was made by Urban Elitist that renters wouldn't benefit and people with low property taxes wouldn't benefit very much. That alone creates a problem.


I think this is only somewhat true and highly dependent on the state you live in. In many states, I belive you can apply to recive payments from the Government for the portion of your rent that goes towards paying the property owners property taxes. If property taxes were eliminated, then it would be pretty easy to notice if your rents don't go down and whether they should have.





As for the rest of this discussion. It has been intersting to read. Not sure who is right, though I will say it is almost impossible to argue for the right of education, if only because education is such a broad term and it able to be provided through non-government resources. At the same time, I do also see the value in everyone throwing in a few buck into the pot in the attempt to provide higher quality education (though whether the education is higher quality is an open question). In the end, I do pretty clearly support a basic voucher program, where all schools are open to all people over a given geograhpic area. Make Marquett compete with Parkway West, compete with Clayton, compete with Kirkwood... you get the idea, with compettiion occuring across all school types (grade, middle, and high) through out the City and County. If nothing else, the beauty of a system where schools would work to entice students by differneitating themsleves, much like Colleges and Universities do, would be welcomed. Parents would have clear choices with clear differnces, with schools working to make themsleves unique. It would be the same as looking at Rutgers and Mizzou and Wash U and St. Charles Community College.

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PostOct 21, 2006#159

To get one factual issue straight: the City, while is does collect the property tax, is not the one who imposes it. Your property tax dollars officially go to the State of Missouri, and are redistributed by it. So the City couldn't just stop "levying" property taxes, unless they were abolished state-wide. Just wanted to make that clear.



From Kindergarten through law school, I've only gone to private schools. That said, I can tell you from first hand experience that these schools do not always turn out better educated students than public schools. In high school, I remember feeling at a severe disadvantage in science to those kids who went to public schools. In history and the so-called language arts I may have had an upper hand, but in math and science, the public school kids definitely had an advantage. At the undergrad level, I know plenty of kids who somehow matriculated and ended up with a bachelor's degree, but who were barely literate of their own culture, much less that of others. It would be hard to distinguish them from non-college educated individuals, unless you counted their "better breeding."



Which kind of leads me to my point: education encompasses a lot more than the allocation of resources. More than public vs. private, what seems to matter in education is upbringing and environment. Those from "good" families that encourage education and who benefit from a wholesome environment are the ones who go on to university and positions of leadership in society and overall prosperity. A degree from Harvard could mean that you're just lucky enough to be born a patrician, just as much that you're exceptionally gifted intellectually.



This point brings me to my overall philosophical objection to the complete privitization of education. Private schools are at the mercy of, what Bastiat would call, their consumers--an appellation which makes me shudder, but whatever. In an aggressively laissez-faire society, schools would be under tremendous pressure to inflate grades, to focus on appearances, not substance, and to teach merely what is "useful" instead of that which is "superfluous." So you could kiss goodbye grammar, theoretical science, logic, history, geography, music and theater and poetry. These things are barely taught now, but if we adhered soley to a capitalistic vision of education, they would disappear altogether. The market, for the most part, demands obedient, uncritical technocrats, not lovers of wisdom and beauty.



And keep in mind that we live under a democratic political regime, where we the voters (consumers of the government "product," if you insist) have the ultimate authority and power. The government does coerce, but only by our consent, and not in the manner of a czarist autocrat or Soviet totalitarian.



In the end, I'm not saying that the government does a better or worse job of educating people. I really don't have the anwers, largely because the question of how best to educate our children is far more complex--and important--than how best to manufacture and distribute widgets.

PostOct 21, 2006#160

As far as the Postal Service is concerned, is it really that bad? As far as I know, I've never had a letter "lost" in the mail. And to be able to mail a letter anywhere in the country for a measely $0.39--that's a pretty good deal isn't it? Further, if you mail a letter to someone else in your metro area, chances are good that they'll get it the next day. Not too shabby in my opinion.



In any event, it is a semi-private enterprise. And there are alternatives, like UPS and FedEx. So the government isn't "forcing" you to use its product. Really it's just another competitor in the field, and a decent one at that.



(Sorry to be OT, it's just that I feel that some things are unthinkingly mocked and belittled, like France :wink: )

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PostOct 21, 2006#161

1. I apologize to the United States Postal System. I brought that up last night at a party and my arguments were met with heavy resistance. So much so that by the end of the night I was convinced that my original thinking was wrong. Maybe if Bastiat was there...



2. Back to education reform:


steve wrote:
This point brings me to my overall philosophical objection to the complete privitization of education. Private schools are at the mercy of, what Bastiat would call, their consumers--an appellation which makes me shudder, but whatever. In an aggressively laissez-faire society, schools would be under tremendous pressure to inflate grades, to focus on appearances, not substance, and to teach merely what is "useful" instead of that which is "superfluous." So you could kiss goodbye grammar, theoretical science, logic, history, geography, music and theater and poetry. These things are barely taught now, but if we adhered soley to a capitalistic vision of education, they would disappear altogether. The market, for the most part, demands obedient, uncritical technocrats, not lovers of wisdom and beauty.


Like you, I went to private school, and it will suprise you to know that they taught grammar, theoretical science, logic, history, geography, music, theater and poetry. My sister's school taught all of the above as well. As far as I know they taught these subjects before and continue to teach them today. Why you think these new public schools would NOT teach these subjects when most private schools today do teach them is unclear to me. If anything, public schools right now are more geared to teaching for the tests than private schools because their funding is directly correlated to the grades their students get. I would undo this problem by not correlating funding to grades but to attendance instead. And as for your concerns about schools giving grades away, private schools cannot do this because it hurts their credability with colleges if all their students get A's. I assume if the student body isn't going to college this could create a problem, but maybe not. If the students aren't going to college do the grades matter as much? I would like to think that parents would be smarter than that and would be more interested in seeing their kids get a rounded quality education. I could be totally wrong.



There are many public school systems out there that are excellent schools. I imagine the students Steve was talking about were from those public schools. Generally, public schools where avg. income is higher than the inner city areas we have been talking about. So leave those schools out of it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. How you do that is beyond me but I'm sure somebody can think of something.



What I am suggesting is giving parents a choice in areas where the public school system is not working. I think we can all agree that in certain metro areas in this country the public schools are terrible. I think that's why we have this topic.



Finally, children are not widgets. And any implication from free market advocates that they are stems from our laziness, our inability to write and write until we have expressed our views in a politically correct manner. I am as guilty as anybody of rushing through my points.

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PostOct 21, 2006#162

Sorry, Tax Guru, I didn't make my point clear. It is not that private schools do not teach these things, they do. I was taught them. My point is that what some are advocating is not really a "private" school system, but a "for-profit" one.



The origins of formal education can be traced to the formation of the elite. It is in these "private" schools that such "aristocratic" niceties as philosphy, rhetoric, unapplied sciences and arts flourished. Education was often either an organ of a religious institution, or a petri dish for the formation of the upper class. But as democrats and capitalists replaced knights and priests, as Western society moved into cities, and we realized we could generate more wealth with our minds than with our hands, the idea of universal education became more alluring. Public schools were founded, in this country, to provide the kind of education the elites had, so that they could be good, critical, and virtuous citizens--and yes, productive participants in a capitalist economy. But we live in completely different world today. My point was that, in a completely for-profit educational regime, the pressure would be on these schools to create merely efficient cogs in the capitalist order, not the intellectually independent, morally and spiritually enriched citizens as originally intended.



Hopefully I haven't turned anybody away with all this tired pedantry. Because an even bigger issue is that this "public" vs. "private" debate sort of misses the point. It seems that wealth and environment determine whether a school is "successful" or not. Where are the inferior public schools? In the "inner cities" and rural areas. Where are the successful ones? In the affluent suburbs. A small rural private school probably does no better than a small rural public one. Public and private schools alike seem to educate people roughly the same, when you adjust for environment, so it begs the question: how do we fix our "broken" schools?

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PostOct 21, 2006#163

Steve, I understand what you are saying and I see the problem you are suggesting. I would advocate then making the new private schools like the private schools we have today. I don't know if they are for-profit or if they are like charitable organizations but they seem like good models to me. Maybe Education Inc. is a bad idea. If it becomes too much like Walmart maybe it wouldn't work. But we certainly have enough good private schools out there to use as models.



As for the environment problem, I think we all agree. There is a reason why public schools are more successful in affluent areas than in the inner cities. So maybe this is the more important issue. But let me ask you this: are public schools in downtown St. Louis working? Not just 1 or 2 special schools, but all of them as a whole. Does it make sense that NYC pays $20,000,000 a year to teachers that don't teach? I think the answer to both those questions is no. I am proposing change by way of an alternative. I think throwing more money at the problem has not proved to be a useful solution.



Basically, I think kids from a disadvantaged environment will have a better chance at getting a good education if we gave them a choice of schools rather than saying sorry, if your parents can't afford to move somewhere else this is where you must go to school.



And, finally I think Urban's point keeps getting forgotten. Vouchers would give many families with children an incentive to move back into the city DESPITE a school system that people are not generally excited about. We already know a lot of people LEAVE the city because of the school system, so vouchers might stop or maybe even reverse that problem. And in the long run, as the environment changes maybe it wouldn't be a given that the inner city school system has to be sub par.

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PostOct 27, 2006#164

I'd just like to add that I read about 20% of the things said on this thread.

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PostNov 02, 2006#165

steve wrote:As far as the Postal Service is concerned, is it really that bad? As far as I know, I've never had a letter "lost" in the mail. And to be able to mail a letter anywhere in the country for a measely $0.39--that's a pretty good deal isn't it? Further, if you mail a letter to someone else in your metro area, chances are good that they'll get it the next day. Not too shabby in my opinion.



In any event, it is a semi-private enterprise. And there are alternatives, like UPS and FedEx. So the government isn't "forcing" you to use its product. Really it's just another competitor in the field, and a decent one at that.



(Sorry to be OT, it's just that I feel that some things are unthinkingly mocked and belittled, like France :wink: )


First of all, UPS and FedEx are only legally allowed to compete in delivering packages, not regular mail. Were they to do so, the government would send men with guns to tell them to cease and desist. That $0.39 might not seem like much, but how do you know it is the best deal out there when competitors are put in jail for trying to beat that price? Government is not a competitor, it is a monopolist! Even when it competes with the private companies, it is not normal competition, because those companies must pay taxes to support this "competitor". The idea that money should be forcibly taken from the citizens of this country to support a bureaucracy that performs an act so simple as delivering envelopes (I'm heading to Chicago next week, anyone want me to drop off any mail? $.25 an envelope!) is almost as stupid as sending people to jail for competing with such a worthless taxpayer waste.



Also, I believe I read somewhere that mail used to be delivered twice a day, but government cut back. I'm sure with competing private companies, mail would be available for delivery at any time on any day of the week. "Mail on Sunday? Oops!"

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PostNov 02, 2006#166

^Seinfeld quote... nice!

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PostNov 02, 2006#167

I'm heading to Chicago next week, anyone want me to drop off any mail? $.25 an envelope!


Excellent! I have 1,000 thank you/birthday/get well/miss you cards that I would love for you to take. It sounds like a lot, but not when you consider how many people are in Chicago! 1,000 x $0.25 = $250. 1,000 x 1oz = 62.5lbs. Also, I'd like to just drop them in a weather-tight box on my street corner starting now until you leave. Also, if you could get signature confirmation on the ones to my three friends in Evanston that would be great (I'll toss in another $2 :wink: ). There may be a few that are hard to find as I refuse to use the 'postal code' that needless government bureaucacy shoves down our throat, but I know you can do it. After all, I'm paying you a fair price.

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PostNov 02, 2006#168

My point is that what some are advocating is not really a "private" school system, but a "for-profit" one.


When I say "private" I mean voluntary. A private school can be $30,000 a year tuition or a free tuition school for the needy. The common element is that money changes hands freely (ie. the parents won't go to jail if they refuse to pay).





The troubles we humans face take root in the fact that we were born into a world of scarcity. This is not the garden of Eden. We have to work to attain our ends. The fact that someone might starve or spend his life illiterate is a reality due to nature. All too often though, as these problems arise, people are prone to call on the mythical entity of omnipotent government to fix them. The problem is that no such magic genie exists. Government is simply a collection of individuals with the same abilities as any other humans. They have to think out and devise a plan of action to confront these problems just like the rest of us (opposed to waving a magic wand as many seem to believe).



Seeing that ones in government do not necessarily hold more wisdom or know-how than the rest of us, then why should we entrust them solely with the task of solving these problems? Why should we be forced at gunpoint to contribute money to that particular group as the savior of man and solver of all of his problems? What is the difference between that sort of thinking and forcing support of one firm in an industry as the solver of man's need for the product of that industry? Would we entrust such a group as the sole solvers of man's scientific questions? What if it were to fail, would that mean that we need to give the current group more money? Or maybe we just need to vote new people into this problem solving group.


This point brings me to my overall philosophical objection to the complete privitization of education. Private schools are at the mercy of, what Bastiat would call, their consumers--an appellation which makes me shudder, but whatever. In an aggressively laissez-faire society, schools would be under tremendous pressure to inflate grades, to focus on appearances, not substance, and to teach merely what is "useful" instead of that which is "superfluous." So you could kiss goodbye grammar, theoretical science, logic, history, geography, music and theater and poetry. These things are barely taught now, but if we adhered soley to a capitalistic vision of education, they would disappear altogether. The market, for the most part, demands obedient, uncritical technocrats, not lovers of wisdom and beauty.


If the government were to provide all of its citizens with food like it does education, we'd all be eating rations of government cheese, or worse, Soylient Green. In our free market, we have all sorts food to choose from. There are so many variations and brands to choose, all one has to do to is walk down a grocery store aisle, except that the free market has even provided us with different types of grocery stores of varying prices and tastes. We haven't even mentioned restaurants. The vegan, the meat-eater, the vegetarian, the food snob, etc whatever their niche, all are served well by our market system.



The point is that one group (government) providing the answer means that there is pretty much a one-size fits all answer. People talk about the gap between the city schools and the affluent suburbs like it is that big a difference. It is a big difference in quality, but it is the same product offered anywhere in the country. Generally it's 8am-3pm, passive learning by students sitting at desks and changing rooms at the bell, the 3 Rs, etc, etc.



Your claim that markets would weed out subjects that aren't "useful" is preposterous considering that it is government schools that are cutting these programs due to funding costs. It is in the market where these students can get private lessons or books to make up for this shortcoming. The free market would provide all sorts of different education specially tailored to each child. Sure, some parents might go only for the test scores the same way some dieters only look at the nutrition labels, but that would be up to them.



Like the free market in food (a necessity even more important than education!) and every other good, there would be all sorts of choices and options from the most common to the smallest niche. Some schools would probably cater exclusively to certain subjects or areas. If your son is a genius in physics, why force him to waste time reading Maya Angelou in a boring English class? Evolution vs Creationism, God in school, sexual education, etc are no longer political issues because they are no longer connected to politics. You chose which ones you want to support, not politicians.



What is the real reason we have a public school system? According to steve:


as democrats and capitalists replaced knights and priests, as Western society moved into cities, and we realized we could generate more wealth with our minds than with our hands, the idea of universal education became more alluring. Public schools were founded, in this country, to provide the kind of education the elites had, so that they could be good, critical, and virtuous citizens--and yes, productive participants in a capitalist economy. But we live in completely different world today. My point was that, in a completely for-profit educational regime, the pressure would be on these schools to create merely efficient cogs in the capitalist order, not the intellectually independent, morally and spiritually enriched citizens as originally intended.


The last sentence is the one that is ironic. Our system of education is based on that of the Prussians. The purpose of theirs was to mould an obediant and united populace. Horace Mann and the founders of the common school movement went to Germany in the 1800s to copy this system.



Tell me again how a free market in education where the child and parents choose whatever path is best for the child is more likely to lead to regimentation and make "efficient cogs" of people than a compulsory system that is based on obedience and passive learning of state legislature approved ideas (no evolution for Kansas)?


As for getting rid of property taxes, I just can't sign off on that one. The point was made by Urban Elitist that renters wouldn't benefit and people with low property taxes wouldn't benefit very much. That alone creates a problem. Factor in parents that would use their savings for drugs or a new plasma before spending a dime to educate their children and the idea just doesn't smack me as a good one.


Renters would benefit. Think of a taxes as a cost in the production of their housing unit. Eliminating this cost has the same effect as a reduction in the cost of timber or brick. With lower costs, the apartment owner can charge less and still make a profit. Competition for renters will accrue this cost saving to renters.



People with low property taxes won't benefit as much as those with high property taxes, but they still will benefit from that money. In the event that poor people rush out and buy lottery tickets, rims, crack, or X-box 360s without the benevolent tax collectors holding them back, what would you do to help their children? I assume there is unanimous consent that people on this board want their tax money to help educate the children. How many would donate their saved property taxes to a tuition free school like I linked to above, or a scholarship fund or a specific child? I particularly like the last option because the results are the most obvious. You are donating your money to help a child (let's say from the Northside) and get to see the results. You can even help see him through college, whether it's paying the whole tuition or just helping out with the books and school supplies. This not only helps the child (through education and the additional role model), but it builds a bridge between neighborhoods and tightens our community. I bet we would see a drop in car break-ins and animosity, etc because of these community bonds. If it turns out that one of the directors of the tuition free school or scholarship fund is siphoning off funds for personal use or just providing lousy education, you can take your money to another charitable organization and parents can take their child to a better school in such an event. You and parents don't have that option under the current system.



I don't know about you guys, but I think this type of charity is ten times more effective and rewarding than having your earnings taken, grinded up like confetti by the Public School System and spit out amongst tens of thousands of students and the comedy routine known as the Board of Education!

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PostNov 13, 2006#169

Interesting article on charter schools from yesterday's P-D:



St. Louis charter schools booming

By David Hunn

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

11/12/2006



ST. LOUIS — When the Timkes moved into a loft in downtown St. Louis a year and a half ago, they enrolled their son at a city magnet school.



But Michelle, an accountant, and Doug, a day trader, said students ran and screamed in class, and the schoolwork wasn't challenging Tyler.



So they walked down the street to Ethel Hedgeman Lyle Academy, a public, tuition-free charter school. The halls were clean, the students controlled, the principal impressive.



They enrolled Tyler.Advertisement



New students are flocking to St. Louis charter schools by the busload.



But they're also driving up one-by-one in the sedans and hatchbacks of mainstream America. They are coming from county schools as they transplant to the city, from city schools as parents throw up their hands in frustration, and even from religious schools, as parishes die around them.



The numbers are small, anywhere from a dozen to a couple hundred per school each year, according to state data. But they show a clear trend. In certain higher-performing charter schools, free and reduced-price lunch counts — education's measure of poverty — are dropping.



Middle-class students are enrolling in charter schools.


Link

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PostNov 13, 2006#170

I justed finished reading the article and it sounds promising to me. I'll have to learn more about charter schools now.

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PostNov 13, 2006#171

Has anyone had any experience with the city magnet schools--at the elementary school level? The wife and I are thinking about starting a family in the next few years. We would love to continue to live in the city (and of course avoid paying private school tuition). I went to a cruddy public school in my hometown (by which I mean poor test scores, discipline problems galore, no AP courses--hell, we didn't even have advanced math or honors English) so I'm pretty sensitive to sending my future kids to a better school than I attended.

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PostNov 14, 2006#172

I hear you, I didn't feel well served by my school either and wanting to do better by your kids is a pretty universal instinct! I have a one year-old and I would also like to hear actual experience with SLPS/charter schools. I hear from everyone that the public schools are bad, but if I had listenened to "everyone" I never would have moved to the city, let alone lived downtown! ;)



I actually just happened to get involved with a school board campaign and found out I was pregnant right before the elections...there was a lot that I found discouraging about the system but there's still a lot going for it too.



South Compton, I'd say live where you want to live now--it'll be quite a while before your theoretical kid is ready for school. And when you do approach that decision, make it based on actual research rather than popular opinion. Visit schools and talk to teachers and principals and parents and kids. Last year's districtwide test scores really don't tell you much about the teachers at your local elementary.



In the meantime, STL City is a GREAT place to raise a kid--I can't believe how much there is to do just within walking distance. And we do get to walk--my kid isn't seeing the world from a carseat, and he's meeting people from all walks of life.



If you want to do a little advance scouting, the SLPS has some open houses coming up, details on <a href="http://www.slps.org/">their website</a>. I'll feel like a neurotic mom dragging a toddler to these but oh well. And make friends with an SLPS teacher, they can give you some advice on what the best schools are!

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PostNov 14, 2006#173

At dinner tonight, we had a public school teacher with us and I was able to broach the subject of teacher's unions. In her opinion, while the union had its many faults, it was her only protection should she encounter any problems with a student or another teacher or the principal etc.



Another interesting thing she said was that her school spends tons of money on new computers every year. Apparently their computers are better than the ones I use at work. From her perspective, she would rather see the money go to higher teachers salaries. While self-serving I suppose, she didn't come off as somebody who was thinking about herself. She said higher salaries would bring more qualified people into the profession.



As I have no familiarity with charter schools, I would be interested to learn whether the same unions are in those schools as well.



Just some points from what I remember from our conversation.

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PostNov 14, 2006#174

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, and I don't really want to take the time to check...



But SLPS gave Anthony Bonner a $125K job in the Central Office, and oh, he'll also be coaching a basketball team at Vashon.



Nothing against Bonner, but what is he doing for $125K besides coaching? My guess, would be not much. Our priorities in the SLPS continue to be screwed up.

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PostNov 14, 2006#175

When you have no accountability with using tax money, you can spend it any way you want. You don't need to have priorities, just big names behind you.



Imagine if our public schools were judged on the performance of a privately held company. It would be out of business so fast..........

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