St. Louis Marketplace

urbanstlouis · PostJun 16, 2005#12005-06-16T16:07+00:00

<A HREF="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine ... BB49">Help for St. Louis Marketplace has come waltzing in</A>

By Martin Van Der Werf

Of the Post-Dispatch

06/16/2005

St. Louis has found a white knight - in a leotard.

In the last year, the city has spent almost $600,000 from general funds to cover the cost of financing the woebegone St. Louis Marketplace on Manchester Road. Now, a growing manufacturer of dancewear and theatrical costumes has a contract to buy about half of the center.

<A HREF="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine ... 220047BB49">>>> read more</A>

debaliviere · PostJun 16, 2005#22005-06-16T19:08+00:00

Even though they won't cover the debt service, it's good to know that we tax payers aren't going to be on the hook for quite as much of it! This should help Dogtown as well - 400-550 workers have to go somewhere for lunch and beers after work!

MattnSTL · PostJun 16, 2005#32005-06-16T22:32+00:00

This may be the best use for the center.

debaliviere · PostJun 16, 2005#42005-06-16T22:53+00:00

Good point - the old Village Square shopping center in Hazelwood was converted in to a quasi-office complex several years ago (15+ years?) and seems to be doing well. They have a call center there, a college campus extension and other tenants.

beer city · PostJun 17, 2005#52005-06-17T00:52+00:00

While I appluad the reuse, I think that the marketplace would make a great new urban infill mixed use project, a-la Kirkwood Station. It could tie the Maplewood and Dogtown neighborhoods together, but, that being said, I would rather have this than empty big box stores.

southslider · PostJun 17, 2005#62005-06-17T13:11+00:00

think that the marketplace would make a great new urban infill mixed use project, a-la Kirkwood Station

Trouble is that there is a lot of auto-oriented junk between Marketplace and Maplewood's business district. And Alderman Bauer apparently wants to add to it, seeking a large gas station (Quik Trip) on the northeast corner of Manchester-McCausland.

Still, I think your idea is a good one. But maybe it would be nice to see what could be done to redevelop say the Big Lots a-la Kirkwood Station (this site fully in City limits) immediately abutting sidewalk businesses, before making the relatively large eastern leap over other auto-strips to the Marketplace.

matguy70 · PostJun 17, 2005#72005-06-17T23:12+00:00

Weissmans Costumes is based on Oakland near the Humane Society Main complex. They are the largest Costume Design Company in America. Dance Institutions from dance schools to Broadway buy from Weismann's.... their products are said to be the highest quality costumees you can buy.

Good news all around!

conurbation · PostJan 21, 2006#82006-01-21T22:55+00:00

I drove by St. Louis Marketplace on Manchester this afternoon. What a sad sight. Dogtown is busting at the seems and this abandoned eyesore takes up the southern border. I just don't see new tenants moving into those buildings. Who currently owns the property? I mean K-Mart and Blockbuster can only keep this thing above water for so long.

beer city · PostJan 21, 2006#92006-01-21T23:21+00:00

Conurbation wrote:I drove by St. Louis Marketplace on Manchester this afternoon. What a sad sight. Dogtown is busting at the seems and this abandoned eyesore takes up the southern border. I just don't see new tenants moving into those buildings. Who currently owns the property? I mean K-Mart and Blockbuster can only keep this thing above water for so long.

Tear it down and master plan it along the same lines as Kirkwood Station or boulevard St. Louis (with more single family homes) Create part of it as a community center for Dogtown and The Hill (like the Clayton Community center) There is enough land there for residential, shops, office, and even playing fields and a park.

This parcel is in too good a location being close to Dogtown, Maplewood, The Grove, The Hill and not that far from the West End and Clayton.

Geezzz Beer City if you know so much and the location is that good why did it fail?

Well friend right location wrong animal, and really too close to some existing other big box that failed (Deer Creek) and now Maplewood is all "big boxed up"

courtland · PostJan 22, 2006#102006-01-22T00:32+00:00

I agree, tear it down and build housing. STL city can always use new/quality housing. Build it and they will come.

jmedwick · PostJan 22, 2006#112006-01-22T01:42+00:00

I think that housing is a great idea for the area. Tear down the failing space and let it grow with housing. BEsides, if the housing is sucessful, then retail can seek out more prosperous locations to redo, like Hampton and I-44.

loulou · PostJan 22, 2006#122006-01-22T12:54+00:00

good ideas! do i hear whispers of a future neighborhood called, uh, DogHill?

conurbation · PostJan 22, 2006#132006-01-22T19:18+00:00

I think you might have a hard time getting that idea through right now. Something tells me that developer who built the place has not recouped their money yet. In relative terms, the buildings themselves are still in good shape. As much as I would like to see this eyesore riped down, I just can't imagine them tearing it down.

Then you have to consider that this is an industrial/business zone we are talking about. I don't know how attractive a location is when the view you get is dirty of warehouses, River Des Peres and railroad tracks. The City wants more residents, but it wants more tax dollars too. Successful businesses bring in far far more tax dollars than residential property taxes.

southslider · PostJan 23, 2006#142006-01-23T16:46+00:00

I think the near future of the Marketplace is an industrial office park, which will help retire the TIF debts remaining on this boondoggle. As for residential, the previous use of a steel plant and its associated land contamination may limit residential use.

Hopefully, the lesson learned from Marketplace for our City leaders is to let Chesterfield Valley and others have the super strip malls. There may be limited sites in the City for some hybrid-box development (Hampton/44, Christy Plaza, Goodfellow/70), but never again clear any site approaching the size of Marketplace for this failed strategy.

debaliviere · PostJan 23, 2006#152006-01-23T17:22+00:00

^

I agree, Southslider. Light industrial would be a good use of the land - the area is rail served and has good access to highways. It could provide a nice opportunity for firms that are considering moving from the city because there are so few options for expansion.

thewayofthearch · PostJan 23, 2006#162006-01-23T17:40+00:00

Housing on a parcel that is adjacent to boh a high traffic rail line and industrial properties seems like a ill concieved plan.

I think this project died a similar death to StL Centre.

StlC died when the Galleria came, and brought the same stores.

StlM died when Maplewood Commons came, and directly took it's major tenant-Sams.

urbanstlouis · PostJan 23, 2006#172006-01-23T18:00+00:00

TheWayoftheArch wrote:StlM died when Maplewood Commons came, and directly took it's major tenant-Sams.

I think it was having problems before then, but that was the final blow. In my opinion, it's location was it's downfall. You would be amazed at how many people I talked to had no idea where this place was. If you didn't travel down this part of Manchester, you wouldn't know it existed. You can partially see the back of this development from I-44, but there wasn't any signage facing that direction, so again, you probably wouldn't even notice it if you didn't know it was over there. The big box stores that were a part of that development weren't meant to support a neighborhood market...

debaliviere · PostFeb 21, 2006#182006-02-21T18:06+00:00

A thought occurred to me the other day when some friends and I were discussing St. Louis Marketplace - could it be repositioned as an "auto mall?"

Right now, there are several auto manufacturers that do not have dealerships in the city - Honda, VW, Nissan, Saturn, etc., and it could even serve Maplewood and other central corridor suburbs, bringing sales tax dollars into the city. The existing buildings could be converted to showrooms and service centers, and there is plenty of parking! Perhaps the Marketplace could even lure existing city dealerships, freeing up valuable land for redevelopment on Kingshighway, for example.

southslider · PostFeb 21, 2006#192006-02-21T18:28+00:00

And contrary to public misperception, you pay sales tax on a new car based on your place of residence, not where you buy your car.

And auto dealerships do cluster for comparative shoppers, but that's why they are all already in close proximity along South Kingshighway. Recently, Enterprise moved to just south of Home Depot to be even closer (they were already on South Kingshighway but further south at Delor) to more of the heart of this car-dealership strip.

suburban lou · PostFeb 22, 2006#202006-02-22T14:50+00:00

City officials trying to learn plans for marketplace

Shawn Clubb

Of the Suburban Journals

South City Journal

02/22/2006

City officials want to learn what a California company has planned for St. Louis Marketplace, but so far that company has been silent.

Meanwhile, the property on Manchester Avenue continues to feature more vacant storefronts than retailers.

Barb Geisman, executive director for development in Mayor Francis Slay's office, said city staff members have been trying to find out what a California company wants to do with the east end of the property. Geisman was unclear about the name of the company.

A spokeswoman for GMAC Commercial Mortgage, the former leaseholder on the property, said last fall that the east end had been sold.

Geisman said the mayor's office has had no success in talking with the new owners.

"If the owners don't want to talk to us, we can't make them," she said.

Bill Waterhouse, alderman for the 24th ward, said no one ever came forward to him and said who bought the property.

"I talked to a few different people interested in doing something in the Marketplace. I referred them to Sansone, the realtor who was taking care of it. I've never heard anything back," Waterhouse said.

Attempts by the Journals to contact the Sansone Group have been unsuccessful.

Some residents living in Dogtown and other areas close to the marketplace have asked that a grocery store move in. Geisman said Schnucks and Shop ?n' Save have locations that are not within walking distance, but within a five minute drive of the neighborhood. She said she doubts they would locate at the Marketplace.

Read More

debaliviere · PostFeb 22, 2006#212006-02-22T16:34+00:00

Wow, good timing.

I guess a grocery store would work well there, but like the article says, there are already a few stores within a fairly short distance of Dogtown - Richmond Heights Schnuck's, Schnuck's on Arsenal, Shop and Save in Maplewood, etc.

I had forgotten about the sales tax issue with new car purchases, southslider - you'd think I'd never bought a car before! So I guess the real benefit to the city by opening auto dealerships there would be the earnings tax on well-paid salespeople and mechanics.

conurbation · PostFeb 22, 2006#222006-02-22T18:21+00:00

Maybe a neighboring industrial building will pull a praxair and blow up the St. Louis Marketplace. I can't imagine a strip mall ever working well there, but it is still too new to tear down. Who knows, maybe that California has something in the works. Perhaps a movie studio will movie in.

DeBaliviere, your idea about auto dealerships is better than most others. The only problem with that is that the Kingshighway auto dealerships are only about 5 minutes away.

threeonefour · PostFeb 23, 2006#232006-02-23T01:29+00:00

DeBaliviere wrote:A thought occurred to me the other day when some friends and I were discussing St. Louis Marketplace - could it be repositioned as an "auto mall?"

Right now, there are several auto manufacturers that do not have dealerships in the city - Honda, VW, Nissan, Saturn, etc., and it could even serve Maplewood and other central corridor suburbs, bringing sales tax dollars into the city. The existing buildings could be converted to showrooms and service centers, and there is plenty of parking! Perhaps the Marketplace could even lure existing city dealerships, freeing up valuable land for redevelopment on Kingshighway, for example.

I really like this idea. We've previously noted the dearth of import auto dealerships in the city- with the notable exception of Ackerman Toyota-Scion. I've bought four new cars over the last 10 years- and all were purchased in Saint Louis County. That bugs me since I try to shop in the city as much as possible- but there just aren't enough options for new car buyers within these boundaries.

If one could search the Missouri Department of Revenue's database, I'm sure there are PLENTY of Volkswagen, Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Saturn, and Hyundai owners in the city- and none of these brands has a city-based dealership. Surely there's demand for at least one or two dealerships representing some of these brands in the city.

These dealers wouldn't compete with existing showrooms on Kingshighway (Ackerman would be an exception, I guess) as much as their county/regional counterparts- since most of the cars I mentioned appeal to different customers. There's highway visibility from Interstate 44- and directing customers to the auto mall wouldn't be difficult since the area's highways are already cluttered with plenty of billboard space.

In summary, I think it's a great idea for reusing a development that offers few other possibilities.

bellevegas · PostFeb 23, 2006#242006-02-23T02:52+00:00

southslider wrote:And contrary to public misperception, you pay sales tax on a new car based on your place of residence, not where you buy your car.

That is true in Missouri, but in Illinois it goes to the municipality in which the dealer is located.

threeonefour · PostFeb 23, 2006#252006-02-23T06:50+00:00

Bellevegas wrote:That is true in Missouri, but in Illinois it goes to the municipality in which the dealer is located.

I thought so. And that explains why Belleville has been bleeding sales tax revenue for years- since there was nothing short of a mass exodus of car dealers from Belleville to the Interstate 64 corridor in O'Fallon several years ago. Auffenberg kept their Ford Motor Company dealership on South Illinois Avenue, along with Kia, but that's easily dwarfed by their O'Fallon operation that represents several domestic and import makes.

I think an auto mall on the old Marketplace site similar to the Auffenberg Auto Mall in O'Fallon would still be a boon for the city- especially if several makes were to locate there, each with its own sales and service staff.