St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

symphonicpoet · PostJan 12, 2022#68512022-01-12T07:32+00:00

Aw, c'mon folks. I'm not saying we should save them. Just saying that if adaptive (landside) reuse is economically feasible that our history is worth saving. I'm not going to mourn them if (when) they come down. But at the same time, everything that is gloriously lovely and old was once new. And after that it was dated and humdrum. I love the airports new plan. I'm not suggesting it be altered in any way. But it doesn't specify what to do with T2 or the space presently occupied by D. A, B, and C need to go to make it work. That's clear. And if D cannot be affordably repurposed and there's something better to do then yes, knock it down. But nobody is suggesting we put planes back at it. The whole point is the single security checkpoint directly off the grand lobby that is Yamasaki's T1. D will be divorced from all of that. It won't be getting airplanes. But it's still got some history. And who doesn't love the TWA red carpet and the curved walls? Those are legitimately beautiful.

Okay, lots of people hate them. But man, they don't suck! What is it with all the hate? I know it's pie in the sky. That's why I said I wanted an air museum in there.

Moving on.

quincunx · PostJan 12, 2022#68522022-01-12T13:52+00:00

By jshank83

NextSTL - Lambert Airport Layout Plan Update

https://nextstl.com/2022/01/lambert-air ... an-update/

dweebe · PostJan 12, 2022#68532022-01-12T13:59+00:00

Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
RuskiSTL wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
Does anyone know how BJ got this data? Anyway to get an updated list?
Probably here.

^^ If D was repurposed into nothing but an enormous 'connector' between the new T1 and the old T2, it might make sense at that point to build an APM on the roof of D as was originally intended.

Could you explain what an APM is? I assume you mean automated people mover?

IIRC it seemed like the old D concourse was built cheaply. The roof leaked, it smelled musty and the HVAC was a disaster as the gates would be too hot, too cold or both at the same time.

Seems to me that if D was repurposed, they should go down to the studs and redo as much as they can.

SeattleNative · PostJan 12, 2022#68542022-01-12T14:05+00:00

quincunx wrote:By jshank83

NextSTL - Lambert Airport Layout Plan Update

https://nextstl.com/2022/01/lambert-air ... an-update/

Nice write up! Glad to see more people from the forum contributing to NextSTL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

symphonicpoet · PostJan 12, 2022#68552022-01-12T22:42+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
RuskiSTL wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
Does anyone know how BJ got this data? Anyway to get an updated list?
Probably here.

^^ If D was repurposed into nothing but an enormous 'connector' between the new T1 and the old T2, it might make sense at that point to build an APM on the roof of D as was originally intended.
Could you explain what an APM is? I assume you mean automated people mover?

IIRC it seemed like the old D concourse was built cheaply. The roof leaked, it smelled musty and the HVAC was a disaster as the gates would be too hot, too cold or both at the same time.

Seems to me that if D was repurposed, they should go down to the studs and redo as much as they can.

It was certainly in rough shape when AA was in there after the tornado. When it opened it was about the same as any other concourse. Generally nice. I think every roof will leak eventually, and you need to maintain them to prevent it. And particularly after the tornado they had their hands full. But it really is newer than A-C, and it was built at the same time, by the same firm as the extension of C. So the general standards should be about the same. Mind you, that still makes it forty odd years old, which is old enough to develop issues, especially if it was cheaply built or poorly maintained or both. And I think we can agree that being mothballed for half its life has probably done it no favors.

As to APM, yeah, I believe that's what was meant. There'd been talk of putting on on the roof of D, so the structure is supposed to be able to support one. If you look at aerials you can see two rows of pillars coming up through the roof occasionally dropping down to one at the narrow spots. That's supposed to be where the people mover would have gone. (I assume they'd have added beams and trusses at the gaps.)

jshank83 · PostJan 13, 2022#68562022-01-13T05:06+00:00

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Oct 10, 2018
Biz Journal released a list of the "most needed" nonstop destinations at STL, though they did note former destinations and some destinations do have seasonal or less than daily service, and I think the article was primarily about what they'd like WN to add. This is based solely on PDEW given by the airport (shown to the right of each destination):

1. SNA - 97
2. CHS - 68
3. HNL - 64
4. JAX - 64
5. ORF - 50
6. RIC - 49
7. PBI - 48
8. ONT - 47
9. LHR - 44
10. ABQ - 44
11. PVD - 39
12. SJU - 39
13. RNO - 39
14. TUS - 38
15. MHT - 32
16. ANC - 31
17. ALB - 30
18. GEG - 30
19. SAV - 29
20. BUF - 29
21. PNS - 28
22. OGG - 28
Does anyone know how BJ got this data? Anyway to get an updated list?

I keep a spreadsheet.

2019 probably would be the best to look at. I haven’t updated the colors in a bit so they might be off (I think I still have Hartford listed as we have it even though it still hasn’t come back)

Didn’t do 2020. The 2nd tab has 2021 qtr 2. That is the newest relase.

Numbers represent one way numbers so for example STL-New York is 783. That means an average of 783 fly to NYC a day from STL. And same in reverse. These do not include connections. Just people coming and going from STL. Broken down by qtr with yearly average in the last column.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · PostJan 14, 2022#68572022-01-14T20:42+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Jan 11, 2022
Probably here.

^^ If D was repurposed into nothing but an enormous 'connector' between the new T1 and the old T2, it might make sense at that point to build an APM on the roof of D as was originally intended.
Could you explain what an APM is? I assume you mean automated people mover?

IIRC it seemed like the old D concourse was built cheaply. The roof leaked, it smelled musty and the HVAC was a disaster as the gates would be too hot, too cold or both at the same time.

Seems to me that if D was repurposed, they should go down to the studs and redo as much as they can.
It was certainly in rough shape when AA was in there after the tornado. When it opened it was about the same as any other concourse. Generally nice. I think every roof will leak eventually, and you need to maintain them to prevent it. And particularly after the tornado they had their hands full. But it really is newer than A-C, and it was built at the same time, by the same firm as the extension of C. So the general standards should be about the same. Mind you, that still makes it forty odd years old, which is old enough to develop issues, especially if it was cheaply built or poorly maintained or both. And I think we can agree that being mothballed for half its life has probably done it no favors.

As to APM, yeah, I believe that's what was meant. There'd been talk of putting on on the roof of D, so the structure is supposed to be able to support one. If you look at aerials you can see two rows of pillars coming up through the roof occasionally dropping down to one at the narrow spots. That's supposed to be where the people mover would have gone. (I assume they'd have added beams and trusses at the gaps.)

Turn T2 into the consolidated Rental Car Center and build the people mover?

jshank83 · PostJan 15, 2022#68582022-01-15T04:29+00:00

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑
Jan 14, 2022
symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
Could you explain what an APM is? I assume you mean automated people mover?

IIRC it seemed like the old D concourse was built cheaply. The roof leaked, it smelled musty and the HVAC was a disaster as the gates would be too hot, too cold or both at the same time.

Seems to me that if D was repurposed, they should go down to the studs and redo as much as they can.
It was certainly in rough shape when AA was in there after the tornado. When it opened it was about the same as any other concourse. Generally nice. I think every roof will leak eventually, and you need to maintain them to prevent it. And particularly after the tornado they had their hands full. But it really is newer than A-C, and it was built at the same time, by the same firm as the extension of C. So the general standards should be about the same. Mind you, that still makes it forty odd years old, which is old enough to develop issues, especially if it was cheaply built or poorly maintained or both. And I think we can agree that being mothballed for half its life has probably done it no favors.

As to APM, yeah, I believe that's what was meant. There'd been talk of putting on on the roof of D, so the structure is supposed to be able to support one. If you look at aerials you can see two rows of pillars coming up through the roof occasionally dropping down to one at the narrow spots. That's supposed to be where the people mover would have gone. (I assume they'd have added beams and trusses at the gaps.)
Turn T2 into the consolidated Rental Car Center and build the people mover?

Finding a way for metro link to be the people mover would be a lot cheaper.

STLinCHI · PostJan 15, 2022#68592022-01-15T05:00+00:00

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑
Jan 14, 2022
symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
Could you explain what an APM is? I assume you mean automated people mover?

IIRC it seemed like the old D concourse was built cheaply. The roof leaked, it smelled musty and the HVAC was a disaster as the gates would be too hot, too cold or both at the same time.

Seems to me that if D was repurposed, they should go down to the studs and redo as much as they can.
It was certainly in rough shape when AA was in there after the tornado. When it opened it was about the same as any other concourse. Generally nice. I think every roof will leak eventually, and you need to maintain them to prevent it. And particularly after the tornado they had their hands full. But it really is newer than A-C, and it was built at the same time, by the same firm as the extension of C. So the general standards should be about the same. Mind you, that still makes it forty odd years old, which is old enough to develop issues, especially if it was cheaply built or poorly maintained or both. And I think we can agree that being mothballed for half its life has probably done it no favors.

As to APM, yeah, I believe that's what was meant. There'd been talk of putting on on the roof of D, so the structure is supposed to be able to support one. If you look at aerials you can see two rows of pillars coming up through the roof occasionally dropping down to one at the narrow spots. That's supposed to be where the people mover would have gone. (I assume they'd have added beams and trusses at the gaps.)
Turn T2 into the consolidated Rental Car Center and build the people mover?

I agree. Seems like a no-brainer after new concourses are complete.

kipfilet · PostJan 15, 2022#68602022-01-15T15:39+00:00

jshank83 wrote: ↑
Jan 15, 2022
TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑
Jan 14, 2022
symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 12, 2022
It was certainly in rough shape when AA was in there after the tornado. When it opened it was about the same as any other concourse. Generally nice. I think every roof will leak eventually, and you need to maintain them to prevent it. And particularly after the tornado they had their hands full. But it really is newer than A-C, and it was built at the same time, by the same firm as the extension of C. So the general standards should be about the same. Mind you, that still makes it forty odd years old, which is old enough to develop issues, especially if it was cheaply built or poorly maintained or both. And I think we can agree that being mothballed for half its life has probably done it no favors.

As to APM, yeah, I believe that's what was meant. There'd been talk of putting on on the roof of D, so the structure is supposed to be able to support one. If you look at aerials you can see two rows of pillars coming up through the roof occasionally dropping down to one at the narrow spots. That's supposed to be where the people mover would have gone. (I assume they'd have added beams and trusses at the gaps.)
Turn T2 into the consolidated Rental Car Center and build the people mover?
Finding a way for metro link to be the people mover would be a lot cheaper.

I doubt the Metrolink would have sufficient frequency to serve as a people mover though?

quincunx · PostJan 15, 2022#68612022-01-15T15:59+00:00

They could run a more frequent train just between the two. Sounds cheaper than building a whole new thing.

dweebe · PostJan 15, 2022#68622022-01-15T17:08+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Jan 15, 2022
They could run a more frequent train just between the two. Sounds cheaper than building a whole new thing.

Most airport people movers boast 2-5 minute headways.

The single track setup after the current Terminal 2 also really limits things.

pdm_ad · PostJan 15, 2022#68632022-01-15T17:11+00:00

I would much prefer they build the CRCC within walking distance to the new terminal. I hate relying on people movers, invariably I am there when it breaks.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · PostJan 15, 2022#68642022-01-15T18:42+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Jan 15, 2022
I would much prefer they build the CRCC within walking distance to the new terminal. I hate relying on people movers, invariably I am there when it breaks.I feel

Traveling for work quite a bit I walk between most concourses when possible. Most airports have this duality to get you from point A to point B, typically its the People Mover and below grade walkways/tunnels connecting the separate concourses. I suggest turn D into a walkway akin to ATL, with some combination of interesting decor/ambiance and historical exhibits which could be maintain by the History Museum.

PostJan 15, 2022#68652022-01-15T18:43+00:00

Then the people mover would run above it...

kipfilet · PostJan 15, 2022#68662022-01-15T20:07+00:00

That is one of the reasons I absolutely hate international connections at ORD, their people mover is always broken *and* I cannot walk between the international terminal and the others, having instead to rely on a bus that gets stuck in traffic.

jshank83 · PostJan 20, 2022#68672022-01-20T17:23+00:00

I can't remember if it was this forum or another one I am on but someone was asking about how many gates in C used to be connected to customs. Here is the floor plan. Looks like 6 gates (30, 32, 34, 35, 36, 38) went thru customs although I don't think they could fit in 6 planes to those gates anymore. I think getting 4 - 737s and bigger on the end cap would be tough.

With the new plan I can't see any way they go back and open customs in C back up anymore but just an fyi

PostJan 21, 2022#68682022-01-21T21:00+00:00

2021 3rd qtr O&D numbers. I already halved them so these are one way.
Denver as 1 surprised me a bit but I guess outdoors things were all the rage.

STL only, does not include BLV
1 Denver, CO 544.5
2 Los Angeles, CA (Metropolitan Area) 532
3 Washington, DC (Metropolitan Area) 464.5
4 New York City, NY (Metropolitan Area) 460.5
5 Orlando, FL 437.5
6 Dallas/Fort Worth, TX 431.5
7 Las Vegas, NV 417.5
8 Atlanta, GA (Metropolitan Area) 352.5
9 Miami, FL (Metropolitan Area) 331
10 Houston, TX 311.5
11 Phoenix, AZ 309
12 Chicago, IL 290
13 Seattle, WA 260
14 Boston, MA (Metropolitan Area) 232
15 San Francisco, CA (Metropolitan Area) 232
16 Tampa, FL (Metropolitan Area) 220.5
17 Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN 214.5
18 Philadelphia, PA 180.5
19 Fort Myers, FL 173
20 Charlotte, NC 166.5
21 San Diego, CA 161
22 Salt Lake City, UT 156.5
23 Detroit, MI 143
24 Austin, TX 140
25 Portland, OR 120
26 Raleigh/Durham, NC 108
27 Panama City, FL 98
28 Sacramento, CA 97
29 Cleveland, OH (Metropolitan Area) 88
30 San Antonio, TX 82
31 Jacksonville, FL 78
32 Pensacola, FL 78
33 Nashville, TN 76
34 New Orleans, LA 72
35 Charleston, SC 66.5
36 Pittsburgh, PA 64.5
37 Sarasota/Bradenton, FL 61
38 Norfolk, VA (Metropolitan Area) 59
39 Myrtle Beach, SC 53
40 Omaha, NE 46.5
41 Hartford, CT 46
42 Valparaiso, FL 43
43 Savannah, GA 42
44 Oklahoma City, OK 41.5
45 Milwaukee, WI 41
46 Richmond, VA 38.5
47 Kansas City, MO 31.5
48 Albuquerque, NM 30.5
49 Spokane, WA 30
50 Reno, NV 29
51 Portland, ME 28.5
52 Bozeman, MT 27.5
53 Boise, ID 27
54 Colorado Springs, CO 26.5
55 Tucson, AZ 25.5
56 Wichita, KS 24.5
57 Columbus, OH 24.5
58 West Palm Beach/Palm Beach, FL 24
59 Albany, NY 24
60 Tulsa, OK 21.5
61 Key West, FL 21.5
62 Fresno, CA 21
63 El Paso, TX 20.5
64 Syracuse, NY 19.5
65 Buffalo, NY 19.5
66 Greenville/Spartanburg, SC 19.5
67 Jackson, WY 19
68 Grand Rapids, MI 18.5
69 Des Moines, IA 17.5
70 Little Rock, AR 16.5
71 Kalispell, MT 16
72 Palm Springs, CA 16
73 Harrisburg, PA 14.5
74 Hilton Head, SC 14.5
75 Rochester, NY 14.5
76 Wilmington, NC 14
77 Birmingham, AL 14
78 Columbia, SC 14
79 Greensboro/High Point, NC 13
80 Bangor, ME 12.5
81 Traverse City, MI 12
82 Eugene, OR 12
83 Medford, OR 11
84 Missoula, MT 11
85 Knoxville, TN 11
86 Burlington, VT 10.5
87 Rapid City, SD 10.5
88 Asheville, NC 10
89 Fargo, ND 10
90 Cincinnati, OH 10
91 Santa Barbara, CA 10
92 Daytona Beach, FL 9.5
93 Harlingen/San Benito, TX 9.5
94 Bend/Redmond, OR 9
95 Billings, MT 8.5
96 Corpus Christi, TX 8.5
97 Lubbock, TX 8.5
98 Fayetteville, NC 8
99 Sioux Falls, SD 8
100 Aspen, CO 7.5
101 Jacksonville/Camp Lejeune, NC 7.5
102 Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton, PA 7
103 Augusta, GA 7
104 Amarillo, TX 7
105 Green Bay, WI 7
106 Midland/Odessa, TX 7
107 Mobile, AL 6.5
108 Baton Rouge, LA 6.5
109 Grand Junction, CO 6.5
110 Gulfport/Biloxi, MS 6.5
111 Killeen, TX 6.5
112 Montrose/Delta, CO 6.5
113 Chattanooga, TN 6
114 Charlottesville, VA 6
115 Jackson/Vicksburg, MS 6
116 Madison, WI 6
117 Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, PA 5.5
118 Bismarck/Mandan, ND 5.5
119 Great Falls, MT 5.5
120 Lafayette, LA 5.5
121 Mission/McAllen/Edinburg, TX 5.5
122 Pasco/Kennewick/Richland, WA 5.5
123 Roanoke, VA 5.5
124 Huntsville, AL 5

symphonicpoet · PostJan 22, 2022#68692022-01-22T05:39+00:00

^Chicago as 12th surprises me. Do you have a history of these going back for any significant period of time? Would be interesting to look at trends.

jshank83 · PostJan 22, 2022#68702022-01-22T17:47+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jan 22, 2022
^Chicago as 12th surprises me. Do you have a history of these going back for any significant period of time? Would be interesting to look at trends.

I have data back thru 2016. I didn't do 2020. 2021 is only qtrs 2 and 3.

For 2021 data it also lists the carrier with the largest market share and that share. Also, the carrier with the average lowest fare and their share also .

STL O&D Data

symphonicpoet · PostJan 23, 2022#68712022-01-23T07:02+00:00

^JShank, you do some great work. Let me look at that Monday.

wabash · PostJan 24, 2022#68722022-01-24T16:24+00:00

dweebe · PostJan 24, 2022#68732022-01-24T18:36+00:00

Apparently there are no non stops or even direct flights between Cincinnati and Kansas City. Any travel between those two cities requires a plane change at fun places like ORD or ATL and travel times of 5-8 hours.

jshank83 · PostJan 24, 2022#68742022-01-24T18:59+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 24, 2022
Apparently there are no non stops or even direct flights between Cincinnati and Kansas City. Any travel between those two cities requires a plane change at fun places like ORD or ATL and travel times of 5-8 hours.

Delta cut them to Cincy the same time they cut us.

rbb · PostJan 24, 2022#68752022-01-24T19:56+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Jan 24, 2022
Apparently there are no non stops or even direct flights between Cincinnati and Kansas City. Any travel between those two cities requires a plane change at fun places like ORD or ATL and travel times of 5-8 hours.

Ooh, that's gonna stink for me if not restored post-pandemic. My one semi-regular business flight is (or at least was before the pandemic) was between STL and CVG.

If the best possible flight time is 5+ hours then it might be better just to drive it...

-RBB

St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

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