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PostAug 14, 2007#876

Another interesting thing that was mentioned is that all people giving out food are going to be held to the same health rules and regs that restaurants are. This has always been the law, but has never been enforced.



They're going to start enforcing it and encouraging the people who are handing out food to help out at Centenary Church instead.



I think this is a wonderful idea, and they can't start soon enough!

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PostAug 14, 2007#877

This has always been the law, but has never been enforced.


I am not sure that it should be. I would rather have individuals and groups distributing food in public places to be held to same safety and liability standards as food pantries, soup kitchens, and other charitable endeavors.



The primary focus of the effort should be to ensure the safety of the food, not to discourage generosity.

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PostAug 14, 2007#878

JMedwick makes an excellent point about Lucas being a backyard to many buildings (including the library). Is it really too late to change this problem? Lining the park with restaurants & other business would make a huge difference. Thankfully, the Ford & the Park Pacific may have parkfront businesses, which will help their park.

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PostAug 14, 2007#879

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
dweebe wrote: -Effort needs to come from residents to fix things. Don't sit back and wait for things to happen. Call 911 every time you see something illegal happening.


I can't count how many times I have come across this, both on this board and in real life. "I saw a homeless guy taking a piss on the library steps yesterday". "My neighbors were having a loud party until 4:00am and I couldn't sleep all night.", etc... "Did you call the police"? "Ummmm....no". "Why not"? "They won't do anything"....



People complain about what happened yesterday or the week before. You have to take action now, not tomorrow, not next week.


dweebe wrote:-he threw out a couple of veiled insults to the ACLU and their meddling limiting what can be done in Lucas Park


The ACLU is a convienient crutch to use when you don't want to do your job.


dweebe wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I skipped it. I'm sure that any proposals to solve the homeless problem would have fit into a PC framework. Which means that it was a monumental waste of time.


That's a rather defeatist attitude.


More like a realist attitude.


1) You claim the ACLU is "a convienient crutch". The problem is the cops are not allowed to question "residents" of Lucas Park. In my opinion it's not a crutch, which implies an excuse for them to not do their job, but a severe limitation which prevents the police from doing what they need to.



2) So being a realist involves giving up? In one part of your statement you call people to action, then later on claim there is nothing that can be done. Which is it?

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PostAug 14, 2007#880

Expat wrote:JMedwick makes an excellent point about Lucas being a backyard to many buildings (including the library). Is it really too late to change this problem? Lining the park with restaurants & other business would make a huge difference. Thankfully, the Ford & the Park Pacific may have parkfront businesses, which will help their park.


Don't a few of the buildings have garage entrances facing Lucas Park? That might make it tough. If a restaurant, bar or retail shop moves into the old Downtown Children's Center space, that might help put some more eyes on Lucas Park.

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PostAug 14, 2007#881

I am not in favor of closing streets, but you guys have the right idea. There needs to be eyes on the streets and people on the sidewalks, whether dining, walking, or simply hanging out. Homeless don't congregate in places which are in use. They go where people aren't.

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PostAug 14, 2007#882

Expat wrote:JMedwick makes an excellent point about Lucas being a backyard to many buildings (including the library). Is it really too late to change this problem? Lining the park with restaurants & other business would make a huge difference. Thankfully, the Ford & the Park Pacific may have parkfront businesses, which will help their park.


My understanding and recollection is that all of the buildings that front Washington and St. Charles have been rehabbed, meaning the initial opportunity to create retail/ restaurants facing the park is lost. The Shell operates as a retail building and has Sen Thai, so it is a start. Unfortunately the garage along 13th reduces the business frontage along the eastern edge of Lucas Park. The remaining sides of Lucas Park we know (a parking lot/ Larry Rice and the library). With the construction of the Skyhouse and ideally retail fronting on 14th, another component for capturing Lucas Park will fall into place (along with the Shell and the Library).



Unfortunately, I am not sure what can be done now to get the already rehabbed buildings to create a second retail frontage. This seems like an issue that the Alderman and the DTSTLP should be working to address.

PostAug 14, 2007#883

DeBaliviere wrote:
Expat wrote:JMedwick makes an excellent point about Lucas being a backyard to many buildings (including the library). Is it really too late to change this problem? Lining the park with restaurants & other business would make a huge difference. Thankfully, the Ford & the Park Pacific may have parkfront businesses, which will help their park.


Don't a few of the buildings have garage entrances facing Lucas Park? That might make it tough. If a restaurant, bar or retail shop moves into the old Downtown Children's Center space, that might help put some more eyes on Lucas Park.




Good question. I have no idea if this section of St. Charles is used for garage entrances. I know there is a garage on 13th next too the Shell. How unfortunate if true, as it would then seem that such an opportunity is truly lost.

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PostAug 14, 2007#884

dweebe wrote:1) You claim the ACLU is "a convienient crutch". The problem is the cops are not allowed to question "residents" of Lucas Park. In my opinion it's not a crutch, which implies an excuse for them to not do their job, but a severe limitation which prevents the police from doing what they need to.


Who told you that?


dweebe wrote:2) So being a realist involves giving up?


Nope. Not sure where you got that from.


dweebe wrote:In one part of your statement you call people to action, then later on claim there is nothing that can be done. Which is it?


I never said nothing can be done. I have no idea where you got that from.

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PostAug 14, 2007#885

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
dweebe wrote:1) You claim the ACLU is "a convienient crutch". The problem is the cops are not allowed to question "residents" of Lucas Park. In my opinion it's not a crutch, which implies an excuse for them to not do their job, but a severe limitation which prevents the police from doing what they need to.


Who told you that?


dweebe wrote:2) So being a realist involves giving up?


Nope. Not sure where you got that from.


dweebe wrote:In one part of your statement you call people to action, then later on claim there is nothing that can be done. Which is it?


I never said nothing can be done. I have no idea where you got that from.


CS: let's not get into a quote war. Let's agree to disagree. If you still want to discuss this, we should do it through PM.

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PostAug 15, 2007#886

the closing off of St. Charles Street along Lucas Park


bad idea. sorry. I HATE when streets are closed off. The street next to Lucas Park should be reopened to Washington.




The primary focus of the effort should be to ensure the safety of the food, not to discourage generosity.


No, it should be to discourage "generosity". why don't these people who drive in from wherever, serve these sandwiches out of their garages? Why does it have to be done in someone's neighborhood? Surely, they wouldn't want them loitering around Valley Park or wherever these "good Samaritan's" live. They can volunteer INSIDE any of the shelters downtown. No more sandwiches in the parks!

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PostAug 15, 2007#887

JCity wrote:
the closing off of St. Charles Street along Lucas Park


bad idea. sorry. I HATE when streets are closed off. The street next to Lucas Park should be reopened to Washington.




Sorry JCity, but that is a pretty short sighted view. Absolutism solves nothing.



Street is a generous term for what really is an ally that runs from Tucker out to Jefferson (and once ran from 4th to Tucker as well). Closing off Locust or 14th would be bad ideas. Closing off St. Charles from 13th to 14th would have no ill effects on circulations, except for the need for trash pickup and deliveries to be located on either 14th, Washington, or 13th between Locus and St. Charles for the buildings on the block bounded by 14th, Washington, St. Charles and 13th. I really see no downside other than perhaps an issue related to parking garage entrances for the effected buildings.



If you see it as so bad JCity, tell me why, other than absolutism, why it is a bad idea?

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PostAug 15, 2007#888

Thanks, Dweebe, for summing-up the meeting. Sounds like it was a worthwhile event.

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PostAug 15, 2007#889

1) You claim the ACLU is "a convienient crutch". The problem is the cops are not allowed to question "residents" of Lucas Park. In my opinion it's not a crutch, which implies an excuse for them to not do their job, but a severe limitation which prevents the police from doing what they need to.


I'm not starting a "quote war" either, but where does this come from? When did the ACLU opine that you can't question any person who is, presumably, doing something illegal?



Or are we advocating questioning homeless people for another reason?

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PostAug 16, 2007#890

I was referring to the street that's closed between Washington and St. Charles, next to Lucas Park Restaurant.

But, yes, closing St. Charles next to Lucas Park is worthless if you ask me. No retail on these buildings faces the park, but rather rear entrances to the buildings on Washington.

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PostAug 16, 2007#891

JCity wrote:I was referring to the street that's closed between Washington and St. Charles, next to Lucas Park Restaurant.

But, yes, closing St. Charles next to Lucas Park is worthless if you ask me. No retail on these buildings faces the park, but rather rear entrances to the buildings on Washington.


#-o



That was my point JCity. Those rear entrances along St. Charles should have been/ should be converted to retail and restaurants combined with the closing of St. Charles St.



The fact that all that faces Lucas Park is rear entrances directly contributes to the problems that face the park. Almost every building surrounding the park turns its back onto the park, including the Library. Getting the surrounding buildings to "front" onto Lucas Park and interact with the park would go a long way to recapturing the park from the homeless.

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PostAug 16, 2007#892

^ I agree, if more aforethought was put into the situation Lucas Park wouldn't be what it is now. But you have to remember, up until about 5yrs. ago just getting Washington Street going at all hours (not just for the midnight to 3 a.m. clubgoers) was the main focus.

True they turned their back on Lucas Park but it wasn't intentional.

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PostAug 16, 2007#893

^ Very good points. For as long as those buildings have surrounded Lucas Park/ the Sunken Garden, they have turned their back on the park. Only now that those buildings are residential do the nuisance issues that make the park such a problem really come into focus.



However, none of this means that the City, Downtown St. Louis Partnership, Alderman, and of course the residents of the area should not pursue future actions to make the most of the park and its relationship to surrounding buildings. Sure the City missed to boat to move forward with such a plan, but that does not mean that actions should be taken in the future.

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PostAug 25, 2007#894


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PostAug 25, 2007#895

Bastiat wrote:
PostDispatch wrote:Opening a center called New Horizons, a 24-hour "safe haven" for the homeless near 23rd and Pine streets where, at any time, as many as 25 homeless people can bathe, watch television, play video games or apply for jobs and social services.



The centerpiece of the plan is a privately run effort at Centenary Church. The church offers breakfast and lunch to as many as 200 homeless people six days each week, and soon will offer dinner on three nights.
Wow are these people incredibly stupid or what!?!?!



I'm starting to consider homelessness as an option. Not only can I make better than minimum wage by asking clueless liberals for their change, but I get free meals, free showers and I can sit on my ass and watch television or play video games all day if I need a break from harassing decent citizens! Even better, I can fill out forms to receive other people's money while I sit on my ass and watch tv! Does this New Horizons place also have a fully-stocked open bar? Free alcohol would really complete the package!



I can't wait for the mayor's office to comment on the tripling of homelessness once this "plan of action" takes effect!



This would be HILARIOUS if it weren't so darn detrimental to the rebirth of downtown!


Here are some thoughts I came up with. Dissect, if you will.



Assumptions Concerning the Homeless Issue Downtown

1. Many suggest that the measure of success of a city is dependent on its downtown core.

2. One of the most noted threats to the continued growth of downtown is the homeless issue.

3. Homeless tend to congregate where homeless services are concentrated.

4. Generally speaking, the better the services are in a given area, the more homeless that will be attracted to it.

5. Although most homeless service providers may be well-meaning and noble, the metrics of success for soup kitchens and other homeless services seem diametrically opposed to the true goal of ending homelessness. IE, the more they serve, the more funding they can obtain and the greater their stature becomes. Who actually works to put themselves out of business? ;)



Environmental Issues

1. The past judgement against the city police by the ACLU seems to hamper the ability to enforce loitering. Ref: http://www.aclu-em.org/pressroom/2004pr ... rabuse.htm

2. The city states that they disproportionately pay the brunt of homeless services with the county coming off virtually scot-free.

3. The homeless issue is a NIMBY-type issue (Not In My Back Yard). It's a hot potato that no neighborhood relishes dealing with.



Proposed Strategies

1. First and foremost, homeless people should be treated with respect and be aided by society to help get them back on track. I believe no one wants to stop providing homeless services. The question is, where should these services be located to serve the greater good of the city and its residents?



2. NLEC

Although he does serve the homeless, I and others are aware that Larry Rice is driven by self-interest and does not necessarily have the welfare of the homeless and that of downtown in mind. He instructs the homeless that utilize his services to become ever visible and even outfits them with NLEC shirts. Basically, the man would be ecstatic if the homeless problem exploded downtown.



Given this, many want to demonize Larry Rice and the NLEC. They cry, "Can't the city cite eminent domain and tear the NLEC down?" This could be considered political suicide. One can't simply take away services when there is currently no better option as the opposing public opinion (Rice, media, etc) will grow louder than the cries of the eminent-domain backers.



The key is to not attack Larry Rice and the NLEC directly. Instead, a more wise strategy may be to provide better services elsewhere as the homeless will naturally gravitate toward service providers where they receive better treatment. If the homeless gravitate away from downtown, his stature and funding will decrease, eventually forcing him to sell the property.



3. Where should the concentrated services be located?

Why must the predominant amount of homeless services be located downtown? As far as I know, there is no law dictating this. If one were to agree with assumptions 1-5 above, quality homeless services could be established in a concentrated area elsewhere, dissipating the homeless problem downtown.



Why should the city care where homeless services and therefore homeless issues are located? If a concentration of homeless services were relocated to a more depressed section of the city, the negative consequences and potential hit to the tax base would be less.



Now this is where things could get interesting. If the concentration of services could also be located in an area that overlaps the city and the county, homeless funding could then be split between the city and county. Even if this weren't possible, the net gain in taxes due to downtown becoming more successful is greater than any loss in a depressed area.



Risks



1. Downtown service providers would not be happy to have their stature or importance lessened. Can mitigate by providing incentives to reputable downtown service providers (Not NLEC) in order to relocate or otherwise be involved in the new location(s).



Targeted Outcomes



1. The homeless receive better quality care.

2. The homeless problem dissipates downtown.

3. NLEC closes due to lack of funding.

4. Net tax base increases due to the ever strengthening of downtown and much revenue is saved due to a more equitable split of city/county homeless funding.

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PostAug 25, 2007#896

"Can't the city cite eminent domain and tear the NLEC down?" This could be considered political suicide.


WHY!?!?! I really don't understand this. WHO is in favor of what Larry Rice does? Who is on his side? who are all these people that would be upset with Slay? PLEASE tell me.

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PostAug 25, 2007#897

JCity wrote:
"Can't the city cite eminent domain and tear the NLEC down?" This could be considered political suicide.


WHY!?!?! I really don't understand this. WHO is in favor of what Larry Rice does? Who is on his side? who are all these people that would be upset with Slay? PLEASE tell me.
He has a TV station where he can evangelize. Believe me, there are a ton of naive people in the region who aren't familiar with the true Larry Rice. All they see is a nice, toupeed old man who wants to help the homeless. They don't see the calculating, self-serving man who wants to set up homeless tent cities downtown and would be ecstatic to see the homeless problem boom to increase his stature.



So the strategy should be for a private entity to offer services similar to yet of higher quality than NLEC. Most importantly, a mission aligned and integrated with the city's 10 year plan on homeless, whose true interests are in transitioning homeless to getting back on their feet. No doubt the homeless would leave NLEC for the other location... And without homeless to serve, Rice is powerless.



Additionally, there must be many code violations at the NLEC. The place really is a trash heap and I don't see why it wouldn't be a candidate for eminent domain. The only problem is, as awful as Rice is, one can't cite eminent domain on the NLEC unless there is another entity that offers similar services. When this is the case, I believe the city can and would go forward with eminent domain.



In coordination, expose Larry Rice in the media for what he truly is... A Riverfront Times expose, maybe? Investigative tv reports? Who's got the dirt on him? If you can win over people's minds while working to help the homeless, you can win the battle.

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PostAug 25, 2007#898

SOOOO



The Mayors :roll: 'plan' is to


Opening a center called New Horizons, a 24-hour "safe haven" for the homeless near 23rd and Pine streets where, at any time, as many as 25 homeless people can bathe, watch television, play video games or apply for jobs and social services.




http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... itycounty/

story/4C565BB87666CB0E8625734200164954?OpenDocument



While the Downtowns Children Center moves to

2201 Washington Ave.



If I remember grumblings, they moved to specifically get away from Lucas Park and the Homeless vagrants. (and expansion)



This takes their buffer that they created by moving and narrows it down again to a 'closeness' level that is probably uncomfortable...



They had a good plan until this proposal..



I would see this as a setback for the Children's Center who are just trying to keep the kids safe..



I would be fuming at this news and make sure the Mayors plans were modified...



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

EDIT removed extreme words.



I do see this as a positive IF and these are BIG IFS



IF This is the first step in cutting funding for Larry Rice and NLEC..



The plan will need our taxdollors and I would rather them go to this new center than LR. (he has a huge building and he kicks folks out during the day?) :roll:



IF steps are taken to acquire the NLEC by eminant domain or whatever.



IF the property is sold to a developer that would turn it into condos or apartments, similar to its surroundings.



THEN I will be impressed...

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PostAug 25, 2007#899

^ You may be projecting a bit.



Lucas Park and the Downtown Children's Center have shared space for quite some time. While this has been a challenge, it doesn't seem to have been the reason for the move.



According to a story in tomorrow's P-D:


The day-care center, a fixture in the area for almost 30 years, is moving a few blocks farther west this fall, but an official said that homelessness in the park wasn't a factor in the decision.

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PostAug 25, 2007#900

^

I mentioned they were 'grumblings' probably from somewhere on this forum.


Quote:

The day-care center, a fixture in the area for almost 30 years, is moving a few blocks farther west this fall, but an official said that homelessness in the park wasn't a factor in the decision.


BUT a simple mention of the ''problem" tends me to think otherwise.



You can read whatever you want into that statement..

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