I just find it to be a violation of civil liberties. It's not like these people are going door to door and panhandling. They are doing it in public places (Most of the time). I just don't see any difference between this, and organizations pleading for money outside of cardinal games. You're essentially taking the person's word that what they are going to do with the money is what they are promising you. I guess I'm just old fashioned in that in that I actually give people the benefit of the doubt, and don't think that it is something that government should be involved.
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This implies that since you are giving money away and not recieving a service, it is therefore not illegal.stlmike wrote:Prostitution and drug dealing are services--you buy something and you get something. When you give money to a panhandler, you are just giving money away. That's why it's not illegal for the one giving money.
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^Oh and nice way to edit in a new point, to undermine a subsequent post of mine. That's shows lots of confidence in your arugments.
You did before you edited your post.stlmike wrote:Yeah. But I didn't say all services are illegal.
Dude, don't personally attack me! I just meant to add a few things and people are posting at rapid speed! I don't mean any harm!
By the way, I didn't edit the post in which you quoted me to accuse me of saying that.
Yeah right. You know you were out to get him and his unborn children! Just teasing... But yeah, it'd be good to see people talk intelligently about this issue with the emotion taken out of it.
stlmike wrote:Dude, don't personally attack me! I just meant to add a few things and people are posting at rapid speed! I don't mean any harm!
stlmike wrote:
Prostitution and drug dealing are services--you buy something and you get something. When you give money to a panhandler, you are just giving money away. That's why it's not illegal for the one giving money.
Correction. Prostitution and drug dealing are not illegal because they are services. There are an infinite number of services that are sold every day. They are illegal becuase they drag society down and hurt those involed. the same can be said of panhandling.
I didn't edit this post in which you are quoting me. Calm down, man.
stlmike wrote:Prostitution and drug dealing are services--you buy something and you get something. When you give money to a panhandler, you are just giving money away. That's why it's not illegal for the one giving money.
You may not get a service in return for your cash, but you either get rewarded emotionally for your gift, or you get a sense of relief that the confrontation with the pandhandler is gone. It isn't a one way exchange . . .
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Agreed.innov8ion wrote:Yeah right. You know you were out to get him and his unborn children! Just teasing... But yeah, it'd be good to see people talk intelligently about this issue with the emotion taken out of it.
Ooo. Good point.loftlover wrote:stlmike wrote:Prostitution and drug dealing are services--you buy something and you get something. When you give money to a panhandler, you are just giving money away. That's why it's not illegal for the one giving money.
You may not get a service in return for your cash, but you either get rewarded emotionally for your gift, or you get a sense of relief that the confrontation with the pandhandler is gone. It isn't a one way exchange . . .
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He was only trying to say that it is in it's own way an exchange. He wasn't asserting anything else.appraisalman wrote:Doesn't the same thing apply to almost every charity
Precedent has already been set in this regard so it seems moot to argue the civil liberty or semantics (paying for services vice donation) aspects. There are several panhandling ordinances in other cities and apparently all haven't been struck down by the ACLU. Believe me, if the ACLU could strike them down, they would.
I'm not sure if precedent has been set for a law that penalizes a person giving money to a panhandler. That'd be an interesting case.
Curious to know what percentage of the panhandlers downtown utilize NLEC's "services?" Does Rice bring in the ACLU to teach Panhandling 101? I bet they'd figure out some loophole!
I'm not sure if precedent has been set for a law that penalizes a person giving money to a panhandler. That'd be an interesting case.
Curious to know what percentage of the panhandlers downtown utilize NLEC's "services?" Does Rice bring in the ACLU to teach Panhandling 101? I bet they'd figure out some loophole!
appraisalman wrote:I just find it to be a violation of civil liberties. It's not like these people are going door to door and panhandling. They are doing it in public places (Most of the time). I just don't see any difference between this, and organizations pleading for money outside of cardinal games. You're essentially taking the person's word that what they are going to do with the money is what they are promising you. I guess I'm just old fashioned in that in that I actually give people the benefit of the doubt, and don't think that it is something that government should be involved.
Okay guys, that doesn't matter. The point is that as an investor in this "getting the homeless guy a sandwhich" venture, you aren't doing anything wrong in buying him a sandwhich or giving him money to do so. If he doesn't do something legal with the money, that's his problem. You keep saying it hurts society to panhandle. Not always.
appraisalman wrote:I just find it to be a violation of civil liberties. It's not like these people are going door to door and panhandling. They are doing it in public places (Most of the time). I just don't see any difference between this, and organizations pleading for money outside of cardinal games. You're essentially taking the person's word that what they are going to do with the money is what they are promising you. I guess I'm just old fashioned in that in that I actually give people the benefit of the doubt, and don't think that it is something that government should be involved.
And I find being aggressively approached two or three times a day a violation of my civil liberties. "They're not going door to door." Do you live in the suburbs? They're at my front door and they're in restaurants. What's next? If you don't think that giving your two or three bucks a day to a benevolent organization that's accountable rather than those on the street seeking the same help delivered by that organization, then I don't respect your position.
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I hear where you're coming from here. I decided to go and look if any studies have been done on how panhandlers spent money. A study done in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada showed thet 2/3-3/4 of the money they collect goes to Alcohol, tobacco, or illegal drugs. When the money goes towards drugs and causes more panhandling, it causes a problem for society. And this is the case FAR more often than the case of the begger actually getting help from the money. here is another article that explains the problems of panhandling very well:stlmike wrote:Okay guys, that doesn't matter. The point is that as an investor in this "getting the homeless guy a sandwhich" venture, you aren't doing anything wrong in buying him a sandwhich or giving him money to do so. If he doesn't do something legal with the money, that's his problem. You keep saying it hurts society to panhandle. Not always.
http://www.popcenter.org/Problems/probl ... ndling.htm
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innov8ion wrote:
Cities such as Atlanta, Orlando and Indianapolis have already passed such laws however they seemed to be aimed at the panhandlers themselves and not those that give money to them. See here: http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stor ... aily8.html
UE's idea appears to be novel. I say go with the prostitute / john analogy and make both panhandling and giving money to them illegal.
They aim at panhandlers because if left undetered the panhandlers won't stop. If ten people give you money and five get ticketed does the panhandler care? Is he made to give the money back? Is he forced to leave? No, NO, and No. So what is his incentive to stop panhandling? None. And how many people will stop giving their money to them? Few very aware individuals. The common denominator, especially those coming from outside the city limits would never even know of this law unless caught, in which case I would imagine they would feel great injustice for "helping the homeless" pissed that the panhandler got them into it and then avoid all of downtown because of the "homeless problem" that got them a ticket, and left the true harassing panhandler free to continue without obstruction. Lastly, the use of police officers to ticket persons that work, dine and drink in the downtown area, or any other area of the city sounds like insanity. What was that about wasting resources? Have you not seen the threads about property crime? maybe the meter maids can do it, eh? As if punding pavement and ticketing cars and getting yelled at isn't thankless enough, now they have to look out for those "vagabonds" giving handouts to the homeless! I smell a strike...
This concept is flawed. You are trying to force social awareness onto the general population instead of targeting the problem.
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I could directly give money to a benovolent organization that will help support the $100,00 salaries that there executive workers make or give money directly to the homeless myself or provide time by buying them a quick meal in a restaurant and talking with them.....I'll choose option #2. Helping these people is charity.....not against the law.
If you feel that threatend by panhandlers either ignor them, or get the hell away from them.
If you feel that threatend by panhandlers either ignor them, or get the hell away from them.
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I do live on washington, and i agree it is obnoxious. There is one particular gentleman who walks around asking you for "two hard dollars" that I find especially annoying due to the number of occurrences he has asked. it has gotten to the point that I can recognize him, and well before he opens his mouth I can ward him off with a forceful "no, I don't have two hard dollars."
Sunday night he even had the audacity to walk into Lucas Park Grille and approach our group and then a server.
That is way over the line, and the problem does need to be addressed. The concept in question simply seems to not be the answer IMO.
Sunday night he even had the audacity to walk into Lucas Park Grille and approach our group and then a server.
That is way over the line, and the problem does need to be addressed. The concept in question simply seems to not be the answer IMO.
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innov8ion wrote:Panhandlers are beggars who approach strangers asking for money. Your coworker is not a stranger and thus no law would be broken. The distinction is pretty clear.
Last weekend, several fire fighters (all of them strangers to me, and I to them) approached me asking for money. Would I be breaking the law if I gave them money?
I hear where you're coming from here. I decided to go and look if any studies have been done on how panhandlers spent money. A study done in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada showed thet 2/3-3/4 of the money they collect goes to Alcohol, tobacco, or illegal drugs. When the money goes towards drugs and causes more panhandling, it causes a problem for society. And this is the case FAR more often than the case of the begger actually getting help from the money. here is another article that explains the problems of panhandling very well:
http://www.popcenter.org/Problems/probl ... ndling.htm
I agree that it is often to fund illegal activity. However, you would never be able to arrest the one giving money to a hungry person unless he knows that the homeless person is planning to do illegal things with the cash. Even if 75% of all charity services were frauds, you couldn't arrest all the people giving money to the charity, just the fraudulent charities themselves. Likewise, you could only arrest the homeless people that try to buy drugs.
And another thing, someone following you down the street bothering you after asking them to stop is a harassment crime of its own independent of panhandeling.
TheWayoftheArch wrote: If ten people give you money and five get ticketed does the panhandler care? Is he made to give the money back? Is he forced to leave? No, NO, and No. So what is his incentive to stop panhandling? None. And how many people will stop giving their money to them? Few very aware individuals.
Come on! You don't think the word would spread quickly? It'll end up being a national debate! The incentive to stop panhandling is simply no one's giving!