St Louis Homeless and Panhandlers

STLEnginerd · PostOct 19, 2023#13262023-10-19T15:29+00:00

Incarceration is a remedy for those that break significant laws, like violent behavior or drug trafficking. Institutionalization should be reserved for people who are clinically determined to be a danger to themselves or others because of their mental illness. If a person doesn't fit those categories i could not support caging them like animals just because we don't like the general atmosphere they bring to downtown.

I don't think of myself as naïve but i find it very hard to believe people choose the street because 'freedom'. I mean what guardrail are there to living in a house. You can still be and alcoholic, drug addict in a house. Housing First is about putting people in reliable and safe housing followed by getting them resources for other things like mental healthcare and rehabilitation. SO the guardrail argument doesn't make much sense to me. Of course I admit I am not interacting with the homeless regularly at a level to really understand their reasoning so maybe i am missing something.

SB in BH · PostOct 19, 2023#13272023-10-19T15:53+00:00

People with serious mental health issues or substance use disorders are not "rational" in the same manner as a people without those disorders. They're not choosing the street because of "freedom," except maybe the narrow freedom to pursue their vices unfettered by the limits of society. It's fair to say their judgement is corrupted by their malady, but nonetheless they want what they want.

Housing first, or really in tandem with health and social supports, is absolutely the standard for homeless persons temporarily down on their luck, and/or those with medical/mental health issues that want to return to society and are willing accept conditions on receiving help, e.g., stop doing drugs, stay out of trouble, and maybe get (or be given) and keep a job. But for the admittedly small cohort that just want to get high and ***** around, there has to be a stick. It doesn't have to be caging them like animals, but it may involve involuntary treatment as a starting point. Otherwise you get the situation happening downtown and in most major cities nationwide.

dtgwvc · PostOct 19, 2023#13282023-10-19T16:02+00:00

I think most homeless people really do want help, but there is a sizable number of people that really do not and I think the city must do something. These are the people who have nearly destroyed the railway exchange building, litter everywhere, do drugs in public, break and enter, yell at me on the bus, ect. We are trying to run a functional society so I don’t think we can just let that behavior go. They are people too and must follow the same laws we do, or be institutionalized, just like us

In particular I am pretty confident that a small group of severely mentally ill homeless people are the main source of disfunction on public transportation. I don’t think working class people should have to deal with a homeless person using the metrolink as a bathroom. If we took the 100 most disruptive homeless people in St. Louis, and put them in a humane mental hospital where they can get clean and get help, it would be better for those people and would make immediate progress in public safety for the vast majority of tax paying citizens in Stl

jbacott · PostOct 19, 2023#13292023-10-19T16:20+00:00

robertn42 wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
dtgwvc wrote: ↑
Oct 18, 2023
There’s no reason these can’t be ethical, humane places. We just need a place to send people who are both incredibly disruptive to society and refuse help. A place were they can get clean and get their mind back

Help means shelter beds or tiny homes. No sane person would chose the street over these.

Reminder that the alternative the involuntary institutionalization is letting people wander the streets until they die of an overdose. Not exactly humane either.
That's the challenge. Most do choose the street because they don't want any guardrails on what they can do. They have serious mental illness or a debilitating alcohol or drug addiction. They are not looking for jobs or permanent shelter.

A civilized society requires rules. You don't get to break the law just because you are in a difficult life position.

We can, do, and should provide services that support people that want help and are motivated to improve their position in life. We should not be advertising our city as a safe haven for those don't want to follow laws. We already executed that experiment with Kim Gardner. The results speak for themselves.

I think this misconception is what leads to a lot of the fundamental disagreements on how to address the issue. The percentage of homeless people that do not want "help" outside of your money is much much larger than most realize. Give money and leave them alone to do with it as they see fit is what they want.

eee123 · PostOct 19, 2023#13302023-10-19T16:42+00:00

Boarding houses are still around, aren't they?

Isn't that what the Mark Twain on 9th downtown is? And the Lincoln on Olive and 23rd?

Those places don't seem to have much online information, but I assumed they were really cheap long-term hotels. Isn't that the same as a boarding house?

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 19, 2023#13312023-10-19T17:10+00:00

Mark Twain is being turned into a Marriott. No idea where the current residents are going

Baltimore Jack · PostOct 19, 2023#13322023-10-19T18:12+00:00

eee123 wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
Boarding houses are still around, aren't they?

Isn't that what the Mark Twain on 9th downtown is? And the Lincoln on Olive and 23rd?

Those places don't seem to have much online information, but I assumed they were really cheap long-term hotels. Isn't that the same as a boarding house?

I assume so. There used to be one a few blocks from me in Soulard--commonly called the "12th Street Hilton"--but it was turned into condos about 5 years ago.

I never had a problem with them being there but it was certainly a relic from Soulard's days of being a more transitional neighborhood.

STLEnginerd · PostOct 19, 2023#13332023-10-19T20:07+00:00

dtgwvc wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
I think most homeless people really do want help, but there is a sizable number of people that really do not and I think the city must do something. These are the people who have nearly destroyed the railway exchange building, litter everywhere, do drugs in public, break and enter, yell at me on the bus, ect. We are trying to run a functional society so I don’t think we can just let that behavior go. They are people too and must follow the same laws we do, or be institutionalized, just like us

In particular I am pretty confident that a small group of severely mentally ill homeless people are the main source of disfunction on public transportation. I don’t think working class people should have to deal with a homeless person using the metrolink as a bathroom. If we took the 100 most disruptive homeless people in St. Louis, and put them in a humane mental hospital where they can get clean and get help, it would be better for those people and would make immediate progress in public safety for the vast majority of tax paying citizens in Stl

SO the REX is a good example. Those people that started that fire should go to jail. Starting fires in buildings is reckless public endangerment. JAIL no bones about it. Yelling at you on the bus, sucks but sorry, no jail. You can't jail or institutionalize people without some kind of cause that meets the scale of the punishment, period.

Being disruptive is usually not illegal, littering is but its not at a scale that justifies imprisonment, drugs... maybe, violence is definitely.

Homeless people as a collective whole aren't an inherent risk to public safety. Individuals may be. Its hard work to sort them out but its the right way to do it.

The problem as i see it is so many think we need sticks when we haven't REALLY even tried the carrots yet.

dtgwvc · PostOct 19, 2023#13342023-10-19T20:48+00:00

Problem is then how do you stop homeless people who don’t accept shelter from littering, screaming at people and peeing everywhere? That situation is not compatible with a functional society. It’s not like you can fine them. I don’t think jailing homeless for minor offenses is fair but I don’t think you can leave them on the street either. For a truly mentally ill person I don’t think involuntary hospitalization is a punishment really, I think it’s for their own good.

STLEnginerd · PostOct 19, 2023#13352023-10-19T21:24+00:00

dtgwvc wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
Problem is then how do you stop homeless people who don’t accept shelter from littering, screaming at people and peeing everywhere? That situation is not compatible with a functional society. It’s not like you can fine them. I don’t think jailing homeless for minor offenses is fair but I don’t think you can leave them on the street either. For a truly mentally ill person I don’t think involuntary hospitalization is a punishment really, I think it’s for their own good.

Firstly nothing should be done without due process.
Regarding littering. First step would be to have plentiful public trash cans and service them regularly. Also regular street cleanings. Thirdly if a person is cited for littering they should receive mandatory community service on a crew which cleans the streets. Violation of a court order (such as community service is punishable with jail time, usually short sentences)
Regarding screaming at people. Its not clear what crime they are commiting. Maybe disturbance of the peace particularly if its late. Generally i recommend you ignore it. There should be services available to treat mental illness where that is the root cause.

Peeing everywhere is illegal. Same formula, due process community service etc. But also homeless people pee everywhere partly because there is no where for them to go the proper way. Is it an unwillingness to use a bathroom or a reality that they don't have that option. MY recommendation is get them some place where they can live which has a bathroom. IE Housing first as well as figure out how to get public restroom access in downtown but also keep them clean and serviceable.

dtgwvc · PostOct 19, 2023#13362023-10-19T21:37+00:00

I think what you’re describing sounds great. Right now homeless are seemly above the law and there is no consequences for littering/Public indecency at all. I really don’t think homeless people are going to show up for community service though. so your solution is basically institutionalization with extra steps.

As for screaming, isn’t that considered harassment? I can’t bring my kid downtown if he’s going to get screamed at by a drugged up homeless guy. I don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to ask someone to deal with.

STLEnginerd · PostOct 19, 2023#13372023-10-19T21:52+00:00

dtgwvc wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
I think what you’re describing sounds great. Right now homeless are seemly above the law and there is no consequences for littering/Public indecency at all. I really don’t think homeless people are going to show up for community service though. so your solution is basically institutionalization with extra steps.

As for screaming, isn’t that considered harassment? I can’t bring my kid downtown if he’s going to get screamed at by a drugged up homeless guy. I don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to ask someone to deal with.

Maybe its harassment if they are threatening violence it deserves a more severe response, but the world is not all puppies and rainbows either. Anecdotally in my experience I just don't see it as an epidemic of screaming crazies.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · PostOct 22, 2023#13382023-10-22T13:08+00:00

Everyone should also realize/note that Larry Rice is behind the City Hall encampment.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 22, 2023#13392023-10-22T16:17+00:00

Talked to a guest at 21c today (I use the gym) he asked where are all the homeless, said he walked all around yesterday and was surprised just to see the 5-6 tents at 14th and market

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostOct 22, 2023#13402023-10-22T19:21+00:00

Inside abandoned parking garages, Railway exchange, and 1333 N 6th St if I had to guess

robertn42 · PostOct 23, 2023#13412023-10-23T15:25+00:00

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑
Oct 22, 2023
Everyone should also realize/note that Larry Rice is behind the City Hall encampment.

It was pure theater and the homeless are just pawns in his show. He's been running the same propaganda for the last 4 decades. Only difference now is that he goofball actors like Megan Green participating.

southcitygent · PostOct 28, 2023#13422023-10-28T13:10+00:00

If Larry Rice really wants to help house them he should move them to his large rural property which I believe is near Springfield MO and put up tents.

MarkHaversham · PostOct 29, 2023#13432023-10-29T01:20+00:00

jbacott wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
I think this misconception is what leads to a lot of the fundamental disagreements on how to address the issue. The percentage of homeless people that do not want "help" outside of your money is much much larger than most realize. Give money and leave them alone to do with it as they see fit is what they want.

Literally everybody wants this.

PostOct 29, 2023#13442023-10-29T01:20+00:00

southcitygent wrote: ↑
Oct 28, 2023
If Larry Rice really wants to help house them he should move them to his large rural property which I believe is near Springfield MO and put up tents.

I can't imagine rural Missouri has the same level of access to services as downtown StL.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · PostOct 30, 2023#13452023-10-30T14:11+00:00

MarkHaversham wrote: ↑
Oct 29, 2023
southcitygent wrote: ↑
Oct 28, 2023
If Larry Rice really wants to help house them he should move them to his large rural property which I believe is near Springfield MO and put up tents.
I can't imagine rural Missouri has the same level of access to services as downtown StL.

This is beside the point. The point is that Larry Rice uses the homeless to line his own pockets and offers nothing in the term of long term programs. He houses them on a nightly basis, requires them to go to mass so he can video his "large congregation" and "good works" that he broadcasts oer his 12-15 TV stations, soliciting donations from evangelicals across the mid west and mid south, to pay himself for doing zero good for his nightly guests while encouraging county municipalities to dump their homeless downtown for greater visibility so he can amplify his marketing campaign and get more TV donations. Its a scheme, and has worked for him for a long time. SCG was stating that if he actually cared the Reverend would turn his ranch into a homeless community/refuge with real long term programs instead of, well... having a ranch.

jbacott · PostOct 30, 2023#13462023-10-30T17:46+00:00

MarkHaversham wrote: ↑
Oct 29, 2023
jbacott wrote: ↑
Oct 19, 2023
I think this misconception is what leads to a lot of the fundamental disagreements on how to address the issue. The percentage of homeless people that do not want "help" outside of your money is much much larger than most realize. Give money and leave them alone to do with it as they see fit is what they want.
Literally everybody wants this.

Everybody? Taxpayers want to fund an open-ended handout with no guardrails or incentive to join society?

In most cities, the percentage of homeless people that want your financial help in exchange for utilizing those resources designed to help them re-enter society is substantially lower than the percentage that would rather take your money, use it to buy drugs and then ask for more of both tomorrow.

Laife Fulk · PostOct 30, 2023#13472023-10-30T19:19+00:00

I think MH meant that everybody wants to be given money. Not that everybody wants to give others money.

jbacott · PostOct 30, 2023#13482023-10-30T20:18+00:00

If that's the case then thank for your contribution to the dialogue as always, MH.

MarkHaversham · PostOct 31, 2023#13492023-10-31T03:47+00:00

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑
Oct 30, 2023
MarkHaversham wrote: ↑
Oct 29, 2023
southcitygent wrote: ↑
Oct 28, 2023
If Larry Rice really wants to help house them he should move them to his large rural property which I believe is near Springfield MO and put up tents.
I can't imagine rural Missouri has the same level of access to services as downtown StL.
This is beside the point. The point is that Larry Rice uses the homeless to line his own pockets and offers nothing in the term of long term programs. He houses them on a nightly basis, requires them to go to mass so he can video his "large congregation" and "good works" that he broadcasts oer his 12-15 TV stations, soliciting donations from evangelicals across the mid west and mid south, to pay himself for doing zero good for his nightly guests while encouraging county municipalities to dump their homeless downtown for greater visibility so he can amplify his marketing campaign and get more TV donations. Its a scheme, and has worked for him for a long time. SCG was stating that if he actually cared the Reverend would turn his ranch into a homeless community/refuge with real long term programs instead of, well... having a ranch.

People in St. Louis talk about Larry Rice like he invented homelessness. Guys like Rex Sinquefield could pay to house every homeless person in Missouri without even noticing the cost, why doesn't anybody complain about him?

dtgwvc · PostOct 31, 2023#13502023-10-31T04:31+00:00

I think it’s annoying that he and his activists always try to take the moral high ground and act like his downtown homeless shelter actually helped people and wasn’t a disaster. I don’t really think our central business district is a place for a homeless shelter, or encampment for that matter, anyways

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St Louis Homeless and Panhandlers

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