St. Louis enters formal bid for NCAA Final Four 2012-2016

debaliviere · PostJun 22, 2008#262008-06-22T14:17+00:00

throatybeard wrote:Is one of the complaints that Chaifetz is too small?

I haven't been in Chaifetz, but honestly how big an arena does SLU need? They're not exactly the University of Kentucky when it comes to attendance.

IMO, it's the perfect size. We'd get about 9,000-10,000 fans a game in recent years, and that would just about fill the Chaifetz. When I was in school, SLU was actually near the top of DI in attendance, as we'd regularly fill the Kiel Center (as it was called then), but things were different then - St. Louis had no football, Charlie Spoonhour was a fan favorite, and we were winning. Lots of bandwagon fans back then.

dweebe · PostJun 22, 2008#272008-06-22T15:06+00:00

DeBaliviere wrote:
throatybeard wrote:Is one of the complaints that Chaifetz is too small?

I haven't been in Chaifetz, but honestly how big an arena does SLU need? They're not exactly the University of Kentucky when it comes to attendance.

IMO, it's the perfect size. We'd get about 9,000-10,000 fans a game in recent years, and that would just about fill the Chaifetz. When I was in school, SLU was actually near the top of DI in attendance, as we'd regularly fill the Kiel Center (as it was called then), but things were different then - St. Louis had no football, Charlie Spoonhour was a fan favorite, and we were winning. Lots of bandwagon fans back then.

I'd rather see the energy from a full (or very close to it) 10,000 seat arena than the energy from a 1/2 full 20,000 seat arena.

Kentucky's Rupp Arena is another example of building too big. The 22,000 seats are great when a rival comes. But a weeknight crap noncom game is not fun.

Doug: you haven't answered my question.

-Where did SLU mess up so bad?

-What similar priced arena should SLU have copied?

If you don't think they should have built the arena, say it.

msu south sider · PostJun 22, 2008#282008-06-22T17:55+00:00

All of this discussion about capacity seems rather moot, being that the NCAA has made it very clear that they will be hosting Men’s Final Four events in domes or football stadiums going forward. This year was supposed to be the last year for the "curtain" reducing the seating of the dome. They are supposed to be playing all future Final Fours at the center, meaning the court will be in the middle of the football field and they will be able to sell more tickets. Like it or not, this is the plan of the NCAA. Otherwise KC would be pushing for a Final Four with the Sprint Center and not just a regional or Sweet Sixteen.

The bigger question for this thread is will Saint Louis have the stuff it takes to get the Final Four back? I believe that the city does, it will just take a lot of energy and solid marketing to convince the NCAA that we are the best city and can offer everything to meet the needs of the spectators and teams.

debaliviere · PostNov 19, 2008#292008-11-19T18:28+00:00

We got shut out in the latest round of bidding.

brickandmortar · PostNov 19, 2008#302008-11-19T18:53+00:00

Here are the winners:

New Orleans- 2012

Atlanta - 2013

Dallas - 2014

Indianapolis - 2015

Houston - 2016

It shows we can't play with the big dogs and/or the weather. Indy was pretty much a shoe in since they are the HQ for the NCAA's and built a new stadium. Let's show them they made a big mistake by hosting a great women's Final Four and Wrestling Championships at the Scottrade Center. IIRC, the last women's Final Four had a pretty big draw.

metzgda · PostNov 19, 2008#312008-11-19T19:01+00:00

Wow, that's a big blow. I thought we had one year locked up.

debaliviere · PostNov 19, 2008#322008-11-19T19:03+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:Here are the winners:

New Orleans- 2012

Atlanta - 2013

Dallas - 2014

Indianapolis - 2015

Houston - 2016

It shows we can't play with the big dogs and/or the weather. Indy was pretty much a shoe in since they are the HQ for the NCAA's and built a new stadium. Let's show them they made a big mistake by hosting a great women's Final Four and Wrestling Championships at the Scottrade Center. IIRC, the last women's Final Four had a pretty big draw.

As I blogged, Pyramid's failure and the fact that St. Louis Centre and the Dillard's Building - right at the front doorstep of the dome, did not help our chances. It's critical that the dome's surroundings get cleaned up if we want to be able to lure major events like this in the future.

I like your idea of making the women's Final Four and wrestling championships the biggest deal possible.

the central scrutinizer · PostNov 19, 2008#332008-11-19T19:10+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:Here are the winners:

New Orleans- 2012

Atlanta - 2013

Dallas - 2014

Indianapolis - 2015

Houston - 2016

It shows we can't play with the big dogs and/or the weather. Indy was pretty much a shoe in since they are the HQ for the NCAA's and built a new stadium. Let's show them they made a big mistake by hosting a great women's Final Four and Wrestling Championships at the Scottrade Center. IIRC, the last women's Final Four had a pretty big draw.

It means no such thing. We've hosted the Final Four several times before. It just means that we didn't get picked this time. There were more cities bidding than there were slots. Someone had to lose.

debaliviere · PostNov 19, 2008#342008-11-19T19:19+00:00

Miklasz mentioned high union labor costs as another disadvantage we faced.

goat314 · PostNov 19, 2008#352008-11-19T19:34+00:00

I know that Ballpark Village tragedy did not help either lol. I'm not super bummed out about this, but I am bummed out that St. Louis might look like a joke in the 2009 MLB Allstar Game because of that urban prairie next to our beautiful stadium.

innov8ion · PostNov 19, 2008#362008-11-19T20:08+00:00

Aside from Indy (and they're NCAA HQ), each of the winning cities came from the south. New Orleans prob got in due to Katrina sympathy. And the others are major metro areas. It'd be nice to see the criteria and scoring, but I doubt that is shared. Stuff happens.

dweebe · PostNov 19, 2008#372008-11-19T20:13+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:Here are the winners:

New Orleans- 2012

Atlanta - 2013

Dallas - 2014

Indianapolis - 2015

Houston - 2016

It shows we can't play with the big dogs and/or the weather. Indy was pretty much a shoe in since they are the HQ for the NCAA's and built a new stadium. Let's show them they made a big mistake by hosting a great women's Final Four and Wrestling Championships at the Scottrade Center. IIRC, the last women's Final Four had a pretty big draw.

Good point, there's 4 pretty warm cities on that list. I seem to remember freezing my a** off in the Miller Lite tent on the Landing the night of the Final Four Championship. Plus the condition of our downtown doesn't help.

New Orleans still knows how to host a party. Tons of hotel rooms, bars open 24 hours and it's legal to drink in the street? There's no way to fight that.

And you're right about Indy: they're a lock since their HQ is just blocks from Lucas Oil Stadium. I wouldn't mind at all if NCAA just decided to alternate New Orleans and Indianapolis.

It would be great though, if St. Louis could lock up the NCAA Wrestling Championships as a permanent home.

matguy70 · PostNov 19, 2008#382008-11-19T21:13+00:00

It shows we can't play with the big dogs and/or the weather.

Give me a break.

STL has hosted it before any of those cities had.

According to KSDK.com

"St. Louis and the other cities not selected were guaranteed an opportunity to host preliminary rounds of the championship during the cycle. "

brickandmortar · PostNov 19, 2008#392008-11-19T21:35+00:00

^right... Weather is definitely a factor in these things as well as having a new facility to show off. Those things play well for sponsors and hosts. Every once and again a cold weather city may host a Final Four, but I bet it's either Indy(since they are the NCAA) or a new stadium is built.

If we built a new domed stadium we may stand a chance in 2020.

We've hosted the regionals and first round for a long time, that's nothing new. Hosting 3 Final Fours in 69 years isn't noteworthy, KC has had 10 but they won't see anymore until they close the roof at Arrowhead.

migueltejada · PostNov 19, 2008#402008-11-19T22:20+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:^right... Weather is definitely a factor in these things as well as having a new facility to show off. Those things play well for sponsors and hosts. Every once and again a cold weather city may host a Final Four, but I bet it's either Indy(since they are the NCAA) or a new stadium is built.

If we built a new domed stadium we may stand a chance in 2020.

Minneapolis hosted in 2001, when the Metrodome was 20 years old. St. Louis hosted in 2005, when the Ed was around 10 years old.

Please tell me you're not considering having the city spend a billion dollars for a new stadium just so we could have the chance of hosting final four games?

brickandmortar · PostNov 19, 2008#412008-11-19T22:29+00:00

^No way on the new stadium, just saying that's probably our only chance. Minne got the Final Four in 2001, but the trend is moving away from northern cities. My money is the NCAAs are using the same model as the NFL. Warm weather/new stadium or better luck next time.

BTW, the last true basketball venue to host a Final Four was in 1996(Continental Airlines Arena).

dweebe · PostNov 19, 2008#422008-11-19T22:57+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:^No way on the new stadium, just saying that's probably our only chance. Minne got the Final Four in 2001, but the trend is moving away from northern cities. My money is the NCAAs are using the same model as the NFL. Warm weather/new stadium or better luck next time.

BTW, the last true basketball venue to host a Final Four was in 1996(Continental Airlines Arena).

The list you see above (New Orleans, Atlanta, Dallas, Indianapolis, Houston) will probably be the standard rotation from here on out. Add in San Antonio for good measure.

I'm kind of surprised Arizona didn't get into this group with their new "University of Phoenix" stadium.

arch city · PostNov 19, 2008#432008-11-19T23:44+00:00

migueltejada wrote:
Minneapolis hosted in 2001, when the Metrodome was 20 years old. St. Louis hosted in 2005, when the Ed was around 10 years old.

Please tell me you're not considering having the city spend a billion dollars for a new stadium just so we could have the chance of hosting final four games?

Not to mention the Georgia Dome (Atlanta) and Superdome (New Orleans) are older than the EJ Dome.

Also, there is absolutely NOTHING around the Reliant Center complex in Houston comparable to Washington Avenue, LaClede's Landing or Soulard. Then visitors in Houston would have to hop on a train - go 7 or so miles to downtown Houston to dine and for entertainment. The Delmar Loop is closer to downtown St. Louis than the Reliant Center complex is to downtown Houston. The Reliant Center area is not pedestrian-friendly either.

Point is, I'm with TCS, St. Louis just didn't get picked. Other cities lost in the process too. $hit happens. Can't win them all.

migueltejada · PostNov 20, 2008#442008-11-20T00:45+00:00

^ hey, you forgot 6 Flags AstroWorld! (now closed...

)

Aren't they building some massive mixed use complex on the same site though? That has to be in consideration. And downtown Houston is more dead than downtown STL, save the area around Enron.

dweebe · PostNov 20, 2008#452008-11-20T01:55+00:00

Arch City wrote:
migueltejada wrote:
Minneapolis hosted in 2001, when the Metrodome was 20 years old. St. Louis hosted in 2005, when the Ed was around 10 years old.

Please tell me you're not considering having the city spend a billion dollars for a new stadium just so we could have the chance of hosting final four games?
Not to mention the Georgia Dome (Atlanta) and Superdome (New Orleans) are older than the EJ Dome.

Also, there is absolutely NOTHING around the Reliant Center complex in Houston comparable to Washington Avenue, LaClede's Landing or Soulard. Then visitors in Houston would have to hop on a train - go 7 or so miles to downtown Houston to dine and for entertainment. The Delmar Loop is closer to downtown St. Louis than the Reliant Center complex is to downtown Houston. The Reliant Center area is not pedestrian-friendly either.

Point is, I'm with TCS, St. Louis just didn't get picked. Other cities lost in the process too. $hit happens. Can't win them all.

They spent almost $200,000,000 renovating the place. It's better than the Ed Jones Dome now IMHO.

zink · PostNov 20, 2008#462008-11-20T16:42+00:00

dweebe wrote:
I'm kind of surprised Arizona didn't get into this group with their new "University of Phoenix" stadium.

I dont think University of Phoenix Stadium will ever host another superbowl or large "party" event.

It is out in the middle of NO WHERE. Plus everyone that went still had to stay in Tempe, or Phoenix which is almost a 40 min drive away. Great Stadium.. REALLY BAD location.

threeonefour · PostNov 20, 2008#472008-11-20T17:01+00:00

Arch City wrote:Point is, I'm with TCS, St. Louis just didn't get picked. Other cities lost in the process too. $hit happens. Can't win them all.

True enough, but I still think Bernie Miklasz's point about the high union labor costs and DeBaliviere's point about the stalled redevelopment of St. Louis Centre and the SB&F/Dillard's Building are two crucial blows to St. Louis' chances that should be addressed to make the Edward Jones Dome more attractive for future Final Fours and other NCAA events. As you and others have pointed out, even with these disadvantages, St. Louis still has more adjacent amenities than cities like Houston or Phoenix.

I'm optimistic that redevelopment in the adjacent area will resume once the economy rebounds, but what can or will be done to address labor costs at the dome and convention center? I can see the pros and cons of unions, and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion or get into another pointless and heated debate about this, but I want St. Louis to do everything it can to be competitive for events like this.

innov8ion · PostNov 20, 2008#482008-11-20T18:14+00:00

ThreeOneFour wrote:I'm optimistic that redevelopment in the adjacent area will resume once the economy rebounds, but what can or will be done to address labor costs at the dome and convention center? I can see the pros and cons of unions, and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion or get into another pointless and heated debate about this, but I want St. Louis to do everything it can to be competitive for events like this.

You do recall the events surrounding the CVC in April? Ref: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine ... enDocument. I believe that we are more competitive now than before, but not sure how we compare to other markets.

threeonefour · PostNov 20, 2008#492008-11-20T19:14+00:00

^ Thanks for jogging my memory.

The article written then didn't mention anything about the terms to which the union and the CVC agreed, so I wonder how long the agreement is in effect.

Like I said before, I can see both sides of the union argument, but even with a more favorable agreement in place I wonder how we stack up against other cities vying to secure major events. Also, not to change the subject, but after watching the Democratic and Republican conventions in Denver and Saint Paul this summer I'd really like to see St. Louis get one of those as well, regardless of the political party.

jlblues · PostNov 20, 2008#502008-11-20T19:17+00:00

It's possible that the financial troubles of the Renaissance were considered to some degree as well. Although it is extremely unlikely that hotel operations would be affected, the likelihood of foreclosure at some point between the selection and the event might have given them pause. Even the slightest possibility that the largest hotel in the city and the convention HQ hotel might experience a disruption of any kind during, or before the event, might be enough for them to look elsewhere.

St. Louis enters formal bid for NCAA Final Four 2012-2016

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