I live in Tampa currently and have frequented Miami-Dade more times than I can count. Last time I was in Miami (this June), my wife and I stayed in a condo on Brickell, we walked to a CVS and it was kind of scary. Yes, it was well lit and modern, definitely better investment in infrastructure than St. Louis, but the only people walking the streets at 8pm on Saturday were either joggers or homeless people, nobody really rides their Metro, and aside from high end Argentinean Steak Houses, a club or two, and a CVS, there really was a dearth of walk-able retail. What I will say is that their is a nice, albeit suburban designed Publix (the Southern equivalent of Schnucks) a 5 minute walk from the main residential area, but honestly it seems like people preferred to speed pass you going 80mph in their luxury vehicles. Add the fact that Miami is 85+ degrees and humid as hell 10 months out of the year, there really isn't a whole lot of walking going on in neighborhoods that are at least as dense as the CWE. Only area in Miami where you see heavy foot traffic is Miami Beach, South Beach, and some of the poorer districts where you really do not want to walk around unless you are from that neighborhood.San Luis Native wrote:I'd have to disagree with this a little based on my personal experience. I lived in downtown St. Louis for 7 years (2008-2015) and was in Miami for vacation for five days last February and spent some time in downtown Miami. I wouldn't say it was insanely vibrant, but I do recall various shops downtown and a VERY busy Whole Foods. I wouldn't say it was dead.goat314 wrote:even Downtown Miami, with it's Manhattanization was dead as a doorknob and autocentric
I suppose you could say there are various shops in DT STL and a busy Culinria, but Miami's downtown had a more lively, and quite frankly, safer feel to me than downtown STL.
That said, this is just my experience of being in DT Miami for a day or two. I suppose there could've been a convention or etc going on in downtown Miami when I was there that made it more active than usual.
I wouldn't say Downtown St. Louis is "dead" by any means - maybe in ref. to retail shopping... fair enough. However, Downtown St. Louis is a product of tourism, conventions and ballparks. The neighborhood has become a different form of recreation and living... not a shopping destination, and that isn't always a bad thing either.
Downtown boasts A LOT of hotels (with many more being built/worked on as we post) --- more hotels than in most downtown cores. The result of tourism and conventions. The downtown core is serving their needs (and the "needs" of its residences) with a plethora or restaurants, bars, pubs, groceries, entertainment venues. The METRO helps keep people connected to the CWE and Brentwood/Galleria for retail shopping. With IKEA and the Cortex District exploding just about 2 miles away to the west - and the shopping districts coming online there - and additional Metro Station, even another shopping district has been formed.
Retail looks to be coming onboard slowly with the Ballpark Village additions. Malls like STL Centre and STL Union Station are closing in the burbs as well and the only type of retail brick and mortars that are surviving are in the suburbs of most cities and in outside shopping venues.
Brick and Mortar is dying - Black Friday was up 8% online and sales in brick and mortar are slipping at alarming rates (see below for this year - end of year - closings). So what type of retail shopping is calling downtown's home? Not many and not many cities are fairing well or just have changed their shopping ways.
I travel for a living. I have been in every state and almost (90% at least) of all major cities in the country (3 million STL size or better for sure). Here is the only cities that come to mind for shopping downtown:
In no particular order.
1. NYC
2. Chicago (State Street Macys closing)
3. San Francisco (Union Square downtown Macys closing)
4. Seattle (the already downsized Macys downtown closing)
5. Portland, OR (losing Macy's at end of year)
6. New Orleans (but losing many retailers)
7. Denver (16th Street Mall is really getting blah on stores though and Macys closing end of year)
8. Minneapolis (ok - losing Macy's end of year and still very limited - you do have flagship Target there)
Other than that - zip.
Runner up is Cleveland only because it has Tower City Center MALL - think old STL Centre. Not great but some national stores.
The ONLY way to bring back retail brick and mortar stores downtown would be to have a serious shopping district "rally" - some power to be to come in and open a shopping block (outdoors of course) and provide a free parking option. Other than that it WILL be the small businesses to maintain a retail "Shopping" experience. Which always isn't a bad thing too.
Downtown City Centers are just NOT retaining, reinventing or acquiring brick and mortar national chains and stores. They don't have the money and they don't have the focus on downtown centers. They can barely keep their suburban stores afloat much less. I have been talking about this problem for years and this country needs to return to the streets for shopping and retailers/renters need to be negotiating better leases and rents in order for these stores to survive. It is a scary problem everywhere.
1. Sears scheduled to close at least another 50 more "unprofitable stores" by the end of this year.
3. For decades, Kohl's has been growing aggressively, but now it plans to shutter 18 stores in 2016.
4. Target has just finished closing 13 stores in the United States. They have closed all Canadian Stores and have no international stores.
5. Best Buy closed 30 stores last year, and it says that more store closings are likely in the months to come.
6. Office Depot plans to close a total of 400 stores by the end of 2016.
7. Wal-Mart is closing 269 stores, including 154 inside the United States.
8. K-Mart is closing down more than two dozen stores over the next several months.
9. J.C. Penney will be permanently shutting down 47 more stores after closing a total of 40 stores in 2015.
10. Macy's has decided that it needs to shutter 36 stores and lay off approximately 2,500 employees in 2015. This year is closing an additional 100 stores including almost all downtown Macy stores closing by end of this year or first quarter 2017.
11. The Gap is in the process of closing 175 stores in North America.
12. Aeropostale is in the process of closing 84 stores all across America.
13. Finish Line has announced that 150 stores will be shutting down completely over the next few years.
14. Sports Authority closed all stores in 2016.
15. Jos. A Banks closing 250 stores.
16. Abercrombie and Fitch is serious financial trouble and shuttering 60-70 more stores nationwide after holiday.
17. Gap closing another 175 stores at year end.
18. Aeropostale 154 stores closing after holidays
19. Ralph Lauren - 50 stores closing after 2016 holidays.
20. American Eagle - closing 150 stores in 2016/2017.
21. Chicos closing 120 stores after the holidays
22. The Childrens Place closing 200 stores in 2016.
23. Hancock Fabrics closed all stores in 2016.
24. Walgreens closing 200 Stores in 2016/2017.
It goes on and on... and, by closing these stores these companies are still failing. It is scary.
THESE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES
(note: KC's Jos. A Banks - which is men's suits / hardly a shopping experience IMO and it is located in the P&L district and closing. They are also closing Cincy and Minneapolis downtown along with another 250 stores after loss of 1 billion dollars this last year - prediction of all stores closing within the next few years.)
Downtown boasts A LOT of hotels (with many more being built/worked on as we post) --- more hotels than in most downtown cores. The result of tourism and conventions. The downtown core is serving their needs (and the "needs" of its residences) with a plethora or restaurants, bars, pubs, groceries, entertainment venues. The METRO helps keep people connected to the CWE and Brentwood/Galleria for retail shopping. With IKEA and the Cortex District exploding just about 2 miles away to the west - and the shopping districts coming online there - and additional Metro Station, even another shopping district has been formed.
Retail looks to be coming onboard slowly with the Ballpark Village additions. Malls like STL Centre and STL Union Station are closing in the burbs as well and the only type of retail brick and mortars that are surviving are in the suburbs of most cities and in outside shopping venues.
Brick and Mortar is dying - Black Friday was up 8% online and sales in brick and mortar are slipping at alarming rates (see below for this year - end of year - closings). So what type of retail shopping is calling downtown's home? Not many and not many cities are fairing well or just have changed their shopping ways.
I travel for a living. I have been in every state and almost (90% at least) of all major cities in the country (3 million STL size or better for sure). Here is the only cities that come to mind for shopping downtown:
In no particular order.
1. NYC
2. Chicago (State Street Macys closing)
3. San Francisco (Union Square downtown Macys closing)
4. Seattle (the already downsized Macys downtown closing)
5. Portland, OR (losing Macy's at end of year)
6. New Orleans (but losing many retailers)
7. Denver (16th Street Mall is really getting blah on stores though and Macys closing end of year)
8. Minneapolis (ok - losing Macy's end of year and still very limited - you do have flagship Target there)
Other than that - zip.
Runner up is Cleveland only because it has Tower City Center MALL - think old STL Centre. Not great but some national stores.
The ONLY way to bring back retail brick and mortar stores downtown would be to have a serious shopping district "rally" - some power to be to come in and open a shopping block (outdoors of course) and provide a free parking option. Other than that it WILL be the small businesses to maintain a retail "Shopping" experience. Which always isn't a bad thing too.
Downtown City Centers are just NOT retaining, reinventing or acquiring brick and mortar national chains and stores. They don't have the money and they don't have the focus on downtown centers. They can barely keep their suburban stores afloat much less. I have been talking about this problem for years and this country needs to return to the streets for shopping and retailers/renters need to be negotiating better leases and rents in order for these stores to survive. It is a scary problem everywhere.
1. Sears scheduled to close at least another 50 more "unprofitable stores" by the end of this year.
3. For decades, Kohl's has been growing aggressively, but now it plans to shutter 18 stores in 2016.
4. Target has just finished closing 13 stores in the United States. They have closed all Canadian Stores and have no international stores.
5. Best Buy closed 30 stores last year, and it says that more store closings are likely in the months to come.
6. Office Depot plans to close a total of 400 stores by the end of 2016.
7. Wal-Mart is closing 269 stores, including 154 inside the United States.
8. K-Mart is closing down more than two dozen stores over the next several months.
9. J.C. Penney will be permanently shutting down 47 more stores after closing a total of 40 stores in 2015.
10. Macy's has decided that it needs to shutter 36 stores and lay off approximately 2,500 employees in 2015. This year is closing an additional 100 stores including almost all downtown Macy stores closing by end of this year or first quarter 2017.
11. The Gap is in the process of closing 175 stores in North America.
12. Aeropostale is in the process of closing 84 stores all across America.
13. Finish Line has announced that 150 stores will be shutting down completely over the next few years.
14. Sports Authority closed all stores in 2016.
15. Jos. A Banks closing 250 stores.
16. Abercrombie and Fitch is serious financial trouble and shuttering 60-70 more stores nationwide after holiday.
17. Gap closing another 175 stores at year end.
18. Aeropostale 154 stores closing after holidays
19. Ralph Lauren - 50 stores closing after 2016 holidays.
20. American Eagle - closing 150 stores in 2016/2017.
21. Chicos closing 120 stores after the holidays
22. The Childrens Place closing 200 stores in 2016.
23. Hancock Fabrics closed all stores in 2016.
24. Walgreens closing 200 Stores in 2016/2017.
It goes on and on... and, by closing these stores these companies are still failing. It is scary.
THESE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES
(note: KC's Jos. A Banks - which is men's suits / hardly a shopping experience IMO and it is located in the P&L district and closing. They are also closing Cincy and Minneapolis downtown along with another 250 stores after loss of 1 billion dollars this last year - prediction of all stores closing within the next few years.)
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^ no doubt national retail is a challenge and the days of big format stores downtown are pretty much a thing of the past, but there are still opportunities. Probably most of the potential ones that look at an urban setting will land at Foundry or CWE over downtown for now but there is no inherent reason why Washington Avenue couldn't mirror what is happening along Woodward Ave in Detroit, for example, where a combination of nationals like Kit and Ace, Under Armour & Warby Parker are opening alongside Detroit Metro/MI-based companies like Moosejaw and smaller boutiques to create a burgeoning shopping district right in heart of downtown... if we can accomplish that we'll be a better city for residents and visitors alike.
Cleveland also is another good example of what a peer city can do... as you say the remaining nationals are mostly in Tower City Center (recently purchased by Dan Gilbert so we'll see where that goes) but Euclid Avenue is seeing some really good results from locals. Geiger's (a local clothing retailer) and Metro Home (a local furniture company) set up downtown locations in the last 12-18 months and the Arcades have rejuvenated business... imagine the Arcade-Wright with interesting shops once again and locals like Alpine Shop opening a downtown location.
Anyway, it's unfortunate that downtown shopping for the holiday season is bare bones; I don't even think there was a Small Biz Saturday effort.
Cleveland also is another good example of what a peer city can do... as you say the remaining nationals are mostly in Tower City Center (recently purchased by Dan Gilbert so we'll see where that goes) but Euclid Avenue is seeing some really good results from locals. Geiger's (a local clothing retailer) and Metro Home (a local furniture company) set up downtown locations in the last 12-18 months and the Arcades have rejuvenated business... imagine the Arcade-Wright with interesting shops once again and locals like Alpine Shop opening a downtown location.
Anyway, it's unfortunate that downtown shopping for the holiday season is bare bones; I don't even think there was a Small Biz Saturday effort.
With headlines like this it is tough to see how brick & mortar retail outside of eateries, groceries and botiques will be a major presence in most downtowns in the foreseeable future. I do see where St. Louis downtown could easily support a CVS/Walgreens as well as a small version Target going forward. Especially with continued development of residential units.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... d4539.html
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... d4539.html
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Any more talk regarding serious looks at Dubliner? I'm shocked it's been empty as long as it has been.downtown2007 wrote:A coworker who has significant insight in the retail scene informed me.DowntownNick wrote:Where did you hear this? I would love if Insomnia Cookies opened up Downtown.downtown2007 wrote:Also heard a Insomnia cookies is going into the space next to Sprint.
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I was also informed there are some serious looks at the Dubliner space.
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Mango added some new signage to Washington AvenueSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Flashy sign. Nice addition. Self Inflicted Tattoos also just put up new signage.
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Looks like a sub shop will be opening in the Merchandise Mart with perhaps the Prime 1000 space getting subdivided. Also, I didn't see it posted yet, but Sushi Ai on Olive closed a bit ago.
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It's Carusos Deli moving from 1300 Wash
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SanSai closed. Not Sushi Ai. Prime 1000 is getting split in 1/2-- Caruso's relocating.STLrainbow wrote: ↑Feb 09, 2017Looks like a sub shop will be opening in the Merchandise Mart with perhaps the Prime 1000 space getting subdivided. Also, I didn't see it posted yet, but Sushi Ai on Olive closed a bit ago.
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^ in the Business Journal the owner said he really wanted to make it work downtown but he just couldn't make the numbers work on a lunch crowd alone.
Ummm ...most restaurants anywhere cannot survive on a lunch crowd only. That place was open like 2 or 3 hours a day. On top of that the sushi was not good... fast food crap. I addition two doors down is Sushi Ai which is amazing and all you can eat too (and always busy especially evenings and is open from 1030am to 10pm 7 days a week. Then across the street was culinaria with fresh sushi bar .... far cheaper and better than San said. I tend to hate see any biz close anywhere... but you gotta try to succeed.
I'm not sure SanSai's business was driven by sushi. It was the various plates and bowls that most people seemed to get. I went there fairly often (online ordering was handy) and never got sushi. And apparently it survived long enough - what, eight years? People's bank, SanSai, the gourmet Chocolate place, and what was an Avon store (currently home decor I believe) has closed all along that corner by Culinaria.
Not that it's responsible in any way for SanSai, but I'm disappointed in the corner of the Arcade building on 8th and Olive. It's a dead Webster student art gallery at ground level. And you can't get into the Arcade building in the doors that lead into the arcade portion; they're locked. That two-block section of Olive had some potential to be really inviting...and it's like a black hole. And the OPO now locked its main revolving doors and you have to enter on the side entrance. What a joke.
Not that it's responsible in any way for SanSai, but I'm disappointed in the corner of the Arcade building on 8th and Olive. It's a dead Webster student art gallery at ground level. And you can't get into the Arcade building in the doors that lead into the arcade portion; they're locked. That two-block section of Olive had some potential to be really inviting...and it's like a black hole. And the OPO now locked its main revolving doors and you have to enter on the side entrance. What a joke.
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I was at least partially mistaken. Despite wording painted on the glass saying, "Proceed to 8th St. Entrance," the doors to the Arcade along Olive and Chestnut are open. Very beautiful inside, but sad seeing an office or two occupying the length of the arcade iself. Most of the old storefronts just have displays of art or other kitsch.
We all gotta remember, the glory-days of brick-and-mortar retail are over. I bet the vast majority of residents in the Arcade would rather click on Amazon for their shopping, rather than take the elevator downstairs.
I agree. Amazon and other retailers like them are like a slice of heaven to me.
I rarely have any problems. (knock-on-wood)
Also, while Asian-influenced fare options are pretty expansive locally, St. Louis is pretty much a pizza, beef, BBQ, Soul food, Italian, beer and donut town - although the culinary culture has grown and diversified.
Still, it's not surprising to me that many of the restaurants having trouble staying open downtown are sushi/Asian spots.
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An art gallery isn't necessarily a bad thing there, it's just that it's not really open to the public (unless that's changed recently)... even limited, but regular hours would be a help.debaliviere wrote: ↑Feb 10, 2017I had that same thought when walking by yesterday. It's a real missed opportunity.
Also, regarding struggles of brick and mortar, while it is a difficult environment, I'm still surprised we've seen so little open recently... we're still waiting for a proper drug store, for goodness sakes.
I'm not sure anyone is saying the Arcade should be filled with stores....but it's surprising the interior windows on such a beautiful, historic building are filled with trinkets and photographs instead of things of actual interest. Workshops, classrooms, some stores....I don't know, a tax business, a doctor's office, one of the many things that all the residents above might actually need. I know Webster has leased the entire floor, which explains why they're not any of those things, but it seems like such a hobbled use of the building from the start. Then again, it's occupied (AFAIK) rather than vacant. Just not much of a net add to making a vibrant downtown.
A friend told me that Monty's closed, couldn't agree on new lease terms. Can anyone confirm?
After San Sai closing, lunch options on Olive are getting slim. I'm guessing Pickles will close soon for Hotel St. Louis renovation. I'm optimistic that they could relocate to the Famous Barr garage but I should know better by now than to assume relocation over closure.
After San Sai closing, lunch options on Olive are getting slim. I'm guessing Pickles will close soon for Hotel St. Louis renovation. I'm optimistic that they could relocate to the Famous Barr garage but I should know better by now than to assume relocation over closure.
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^ I believe Monte's indeed was slated to close last Friday. Last I heard, Pickles was planning for a relocation but I haven't heard anything in some time. (I think that hotel project is behind schedule, btw.) Maybe Pickles could switch over to Monty's space but not sure on size requirements.
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On the plus side, Caruso's Deli is moving to the bar side of the old Prime 1000 space. The restaurant side is still available for lease.
A Pickle's move to Monty's space would work well. It's a much nicer space than the old Quiznos space in the Famous garage. The old San Sai space would work well too. I think any of these options are pretty comparable to what they have now.
And I'm super excited about Caruso's moving. I loved the atmosphere at their old spot but they're really filling a void with this move. Unfortunately I'm guessing their old spot will sit empty for awhile, unless an adjacent business annexes it.
Also, any word on LockerDome's soon-to-be former spot?
And I'm super excited about Caruso's moving. I loved the atmosphere at their old spot but they're really filling a void with this move. Unfortunately I'm guessing their old spot will sit empty for awhile, unless an adjacent business annexes it.
Also, any word on LockerDome's soon-to-be former spot?
If they move at the same speed they make their sandwiches, they should be in their new space around 2021....debaliviere wrote: ↑Mar 08, 2017On the plus side, Caruso's Deli is moving to the bar side of the old Prime 1000 space. The restaurant side is still available for lease.