urbanSTL

Jeff707 wrote:A Moo Moo store it is.



So say we all.

I like to moo mooo... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &q=cow+moo

Jeff707 wrote:Yeah.... that's a stretch.





Which isn't to say they wouldn't be a great addition to downtown, but... yeah, really, that's a stretch.

Well I'm glad we can agree it'd be a great fit downtown -- since that's the idea, after all, to improve downtown. I confess, though, I'm a bit unclear as to why so many on this forum -- you and bprop in this thread, others elsewhere -- so frequently feel the need to quibble with minor points unrelated to making the city a better place (in this case, the largely irrelevant point that American Apparel's mission statement supports the symmetry that having a location on Washington Avenue would create). Maybe it’s the empowering nature of the anonymity offered by internet message boards. In any event, perhaps it's worthwhile to keep in mind that perhaps the most valuable way in which this forum can be of service to our community is to help foster ideas to improve the city. Pointless quibbles with secondary points unrelated to this goal are not only petty, but undermine this board’s considerable potential usefulness as a community-creating and idea-generating forum.

. . . the most valuable way in which this forum can be of service to our community is to help foster ideas to improve the city. Pointless quibbles with secondary points unrelated to this goal are not only petty, but undermine this board’s considerable potential usefulness as a community-creating and idea-generating forum.

"Helping foster ideas to improve the city" is one of my day jobs. I post on this forum to quibble about secondary points with smart people who share many of my interests.

sda wrote:

Jeff707 wrote:Yeah.... that's a stretch.





Which isn't to say they wouldn't be a great addition to downtown, but... yeah, really, that's a stretch.

Well I'm glad we can agree it'd be a great fit downtown -- since that's the idea, after all, to improve downtown. I confess, though, I'm a bit unclear as to why so many on this forum -- you and bprop in this thread, others elsewhere -- so frequently feel the need to quibble with minor points unrelated to making the city a better place (in this case, the largely irrelevant point that American Apparel's mission statement supports the symmetry that having a location on Washington Avenue would create). Maybe it’s the empowering nature of the anonymity offered by internet message boards. In any event, perhaps it's worthwhile to keep in mind that perhaps the most valuable way in which this forum can be of service to our community is to help foster ideas to improve the city. Pointless quibbles with secondary points unrelated to this goal are not only petty, but undermine this board’s considerable potential usefulness as a community-creating and idea-generating forum.

I was willing to let it go, but since you asked....



Someone said they'd like to see "Store X" downtown. You said yes, that would be great. Fine. You then said something I questioned: that Store X would find the loft district "inviting" because (a) we're a downtown and they're located in a downtown area also and (b) they make garments and our city used to make a lot of garments.



I didn't question your desire to see the store downtown, or even the loose parallels between their situation and that of the loft district. What I did question was how our downtown would be more suitable or inviting for those two reasons.



If you fee that's an unreasonable quibble, then I unfortunately don't have control over that. I put it in the plainest way possible because I was really wondering what you saw that I didn't. Accept every post as the poster's opinion, and then ignore it if you wish.



The reason I like this forum is because of the optimism. But it's also the reason I find it very frustrating at times. I'm passionate about the benefits that urban living and design can bring. I have lived in locations in St. Louis for over thirty years and have worked downtown for eight. I would not be here if I didn't love this place.



But I am also well aware of its shortcomings. St. Louis's past simply can not be a magnet for its future. You made a point that I felt was very optimistic -- and I can appreciate that -- but I questioned how realistic it was. I could not find what you found in the mission statement that made St. Louis appear attractive or -- in your words -- "inviting", to Store X. So I asked.



St. Louis needs to attract businesses like this. But I feel that it can not do so on its current merits, and certainly not on its past from a century or more ago. We don't have a McDonalds downtown, or a Taco Bell or Pizza Hut or Wendy's or Burger King. We don't have a high-profile bookstore or apparel outlet. The types of businesses that really have the intense market research down to a science have, apparently, decided that an investment in a downtown location is not yet worth it.



My point was made not because it was a quibble, but because to attract these businesses, downtown needs to work on the things that really matter: streamlined building permits, reduced quality of life crimes, more infill, stricter zoning, affordable housing, transit, density....these are the things that will make it more attractive to businesses.



I am not going to parallel your statement to this, but for better or worse, it was the first thing I thought of when I read the post:



Before St. Louis Centre was completely shuttered, 95% abandoned, many of the empty storefronts were painted with things such as "Perfect Location for a Sporting Goods Store, or "Great Spot for a Hair/Nail Salon" and "Great Location for a Home Accessories Store".



Those were very optimistic statements. But they were also unrealistic, as much as I would have loved to see all of those things in St. Louis Centre. I just wanted to yell at whoever was responsible: what the h311 were you thinking? It would have been nice to convince those types of places to set up shop, but unfortunately the easy solution of putting on an optimistic face did not work. What was needed was something very different than what St. Louis Centre had.



In short, I want to make the city a better place, but after my time living here, I feel that optimism oftem comes up short and we (even myself) eventually have to face up to a hard reality to focus on the things that really matter, even if it makes it more difficult.

RE: Nike Town



I've never been in one, so I don't know how much space they would require. But if their space is too large for the Meridian, I would love to see it elsewhere in the city...if not downtown. I think it fits in well with the urban fabric. And would go well with the other shoe stores on Wash Ave.



RE: American Apparel



I don't understand what you all are arguing about. This store seems like a great place, and it looks from it's current list of stores that it fits in well in urban environments.



So are you all bickering over whether or not that store would want to come to STL? I don't see why not? There's a burgeoning market here...



I do understand why some retailers are a little hesitant, but the residents are moving in daily into the loft district. If they need more space, that's fine too, there are other opportunities to set up shop in the city.

innov8ion wrote:From "VisualStore":http://www.americanapparel.net/presscen ... store.html

"In a world where retailers are eager to brand clothing, store environments, even stairways, American Apparel stands apart as the anti-brand. The company feels its target audience - young, urban, educationed individuals - rejects being a walking billboard for brands and responds to its anti-cookie-cutter approach."

^

^

^

That's cool that young consumers are rejecting gaudy brand logos on clothing.



The clothing that American Apparel offers is similar to what Old Navy offers, and there are several Old Navy stores in the St. Louis area (with spacious parking). Actually, I just checked out http://www.oldnavy.com/, and it seems like Old Navy has what American Apparel has and more.



I don't think that the made-in-America tags influence the clothing buyers' decisions that much. Wal-Mart used to push American-made clothing, but then found that consumers are primarily concerned about low-priced clothing without regards to where it's made.

Are you a shill for Old Navy? The common perception of Old Navy is that they sell cheaply made crap. Like it or not, this is very different from the perception of American Apparel. Which image would you want in your neighborhood? Cheap crap or moderately priced trendy clothing w/ a feel good image? The former isn't going to help downtown whereas the latter might.



Resurrectus, get over it. You don't like American Apparel. So what. Take a deep breath and move on; it's ok.

I think your text just changed. I thought I read "Old Navy is crap." It's not crap, it's usually pretty decent and affordable.



Anyway, I still think AD Brown needs a bookstore. However, let none of us discount Old Navy/Gap downtown. I've written before that there really aren't that many cool people to support as downtown stores as we would hope. Have you seen a convention crowd? They walk right into an Atom/Salt of the Earth/Uma/Blend and walk right back out, no purchase.



I'm not sure it's right for Meredian, but we would greatly benefit from an Old Navy DT or anywhere for that matter.

From: http://www.brandchannel.com/features_we ... ?ww_id=168

"So what does this mean about the brand? The truth of the matter is, for the US market, Old Navy makes pretty junky clothing. At the low end of Gap (which is the low end of Banana Republic), Old Navy’s goods sell because they’re cheap. It is probably not a stretch to say that if Old Navy’s customers could afford to shop at Gap they would, just as if Gap’s customers could afford to shop at Banana Republic they would."



I tend to agree with you that many of the shops and restaurants are geared toward the higher end. There should be more moderate and even some cheaper options for diversity. That being said, I don't see Old Navy working in the Meridian.



A bookstore in the area would be great. Why do you think a bookstore would be well-suited for the Meridian?



When are the Bogen and Lucas Lofts coming online? We need more density in this area. Ventana is coming soon I guess. Patience.. ack

innov8ion wrote:From: http://www.brandchannel.com/features_we ... ?ww_id=168

"So what does this mean about the brand? The truth of the matter is, for the US market, Old Navy makes pretty junky clothing. At the low end of Gap (which is the low end of Banana Republic), Old Navy’s goods sell because they’re cheap. It is probably not a stretch to say that if Old Navy’s customers could afford to shop at Gap they would, just as if Gap’s customers could afford to shop at Banana Republic they would."



I tend to agree with you that many of the shops and restaurants are geared toward the high end. There should be more moderate and even some cheaper options for diversity. That being said, I don't see Old Navy working in the Meridian.



A bookstore in the area would be great. Why do you think a bookstore would be well-suited for the Meridian?



When are the Bogen and Lucas Lofts coming online? We need more density in this area. Ventana is coming soon I guess. Patience.. ack

Old navy is perfect for kids/teens... on par with walmart/target etc. I refuse to shop there b/c of their terribly annoying commercials. "performance fleece, performance fleece"

I agree- Old Navy is not right for Meredian. Old Navy is kind of like Target in that all income level shoppers will shop there. We need broader based stores downtown. Your research doesn't convince me that Old Navy is perceived as cheap across the board. There is an Old Navy in Ladue; anytime I go there it's full of wealthy women stocking up on basics. I buy stuff there often and I can certainly afford Gap or Banana Republic.



We need to come down a level and think about the people that come downtown- tourists, secretaries from Illinois, working class people in the city, etc. I'm not implying you need to make your bldg a Mcdonald's. We as a city aren't cool enough to have just hipster restaurants and boutiques. We need a McDonalds, a Borders, an Old Navy and an Ikea.

^ I agree with you. But we can't turn into a sanitized West County either. We could use some practicality w/ personality and flavor to set us apart.

I think a bookstore is well suited because it's a high profile corner and has the windows fronting both Wash and Tucker. I just 'see' books. Please no restaurant or club- boring and I fear we're reaching a saturation point (unless Wasabi wants to open the world's largest sushi bar).

Why would any tourist or even people like me, who have come in from the suburbs to visit museum's or meet for dinner want to shop at your over priced Old Navy? We have Old Navy out the wazzou here. I am looking for something that I can't find here. I don't know of another American Apparel. I would go in. I agree that it can't be over priced but don't make it a cheap chain that saturates the outlying areas already.

Have you seen our tourists? Have you seen the secretarial pool for most downtown offices? Having offered shopping advice to misguided DT tourists for 10 years now, I can tell you they're looking for SOMETHING downtown that is familiar to them. I've seen tourists in Chicago/San Fr./New York load up on Old Navy/Gap. It's big shopping for some.



As I said, Old Navy/Gap is not right for Meredian but would suit a need in downtown.

Yes, I have seen your tourists. In fact you might consider me one, as I don't live downtown. I know that when I go someplace I have never been, the last thing I am looking for is stores we have tons of at home. That being said I think that downtown could benefit from an Old Navy/Gap type store. Maybe at someplace like Union Station. God knows the retail space is available and maybe it would draw younger people over there.

As for as your idea for a bookstore I love it. In fact I think that people lunching on Washington Ave, or families who have just left the City Museum would stop in. I would.

innov8ion wrote:Are you a shill for Old Navy? The common perception of Old Navy is that they sell cheaply made crap. Like it or not, this is very different from the perception of American Apparel. Which image would you want in your neighborhood? Cheap crap or moderately priced trendy clothing w/ a feel good image? The former isn't going to help downtown whereas the latter might.



Resurrectus, get over it. You don't like American Apparel. So what. Take a deep breath and move on; it's ok.

I just thought that Old Navy stuff looked similar. I had no idea that Old Navy clothing had a reputation for falling apart. I also find the Old Navy commercials incredibly annoying.



Also, I was not suggesting an Old Navy store for either the Meridian or downtown. I was just comparing American Apparel to Old Navy. Since Old Navy stuff falls apart, then I guess that it wasn't a good comparison.



I have nothing against American Apparel. I think that their clothing is too plain for the upscale Meridian, and that's pretty much it.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Having just returned from Vegas, I saw more people who should be wearing moo-moo's than I cared to.



god that place is depressing.

Amen, brother.



BTW, I love how once Homer decided to don the moo-moo, he also began wearing a tam o'shanter hat to go with it.

"I don't want to look like a freak...I'll take the moo-moo."

The problem is that you are trying to make downtown shopping a destination, regionally, then an Old Navy isn't what you need. I wouldn't mind getting an Old Navy eventually, but the lure of American Apparel is that there isn't a store in St. Louis.



But I also agree with Mom, a bookstore would look great in that space. I love the big windows.

trent wrote:...but the lure of American Apparel is that there isn't a store in St. Louis.

There are thousands of stores that the St. Louis area doesn't have.

trent wrote:But I also agree with Mom, a bookstore would look great in that space. I love the big windows.

I would love a big magazine store similar to the one in Clayton (I can't remember the name).