urbanSTL

So city staff has said that the NGA decision helps the "transit conversation", but basically the city cant move forward until there is larger support, meaning the state and county. So basically, this is on hold indefinitely. I've heard that the Ferguson Commission had changed regional conversation on Metrolink expansion, but its looking we will use our last regional juice on Danforth's Westport line so Cardinal fans can get wasted and park their car at a park and ride lot at Westport.

dbInSouthCity wrote:See stl county and cross county. Development happens when there is demand. and when there is demand here it's in west county

where's the demand from west county? just because Stenger wants a west county line doesn't mean there's demand for it. there doesn't seem to be much demand for the cross county line, as you just pointed out. given the stations with the highest ridership, the poor performance of the cross-county line, and in terms of population density and the potential for development, the N-S line is far-and-away the best choice.

^ demand for development in west county (RGA, mercy, bunge, edgewell, Centene, bjc ect)...there is no demand for any sorts of transit in west county. But yet they are doing well...good schools no crime

^^Yep. The best example being the success Metrolink has been through the Central Corridor, both in terms of ridership and development.

Yet the metrolink station in the middle of cortex will open in 2018...16 years after cortex started

dbInSouthCity wrote:^ demand for development in west county (RGA, mercy, bunge, edgewell, Centene, bjc ect)...there is no demand for any sorts of transit in west county. But yet they are doing well...good schools no crime

I agree, I actually think that West County has the potential for some of the best TOD in St. Louis. All you have to do is go to DC and see that some of the best "TOD" are in generic looking Clayton type places. The demand is there in West County and the housing cost justifies that type of high end development. Also, Mid County has currently not use their stations well, but that is slowly changing. The private market has a lot of development planned near stations and they site Metrolink access, it will be piecemeal and St. Louis likely needs it first true successful "TOD" before other areas catch on and say OK we get it now. I think downtown Clayton has that potential. I also think that North County is where we will see our first true TOD. Look for something at the Rock Road, North Hanley, and Wellston stations sooner rather than later. I also think that we could see some interesting developments near UMSL.

dbInSouthCity wrote:Yet the metrolink station in the middle of cortex will open in 2018...16 years after cortex started

Exactly. That gets back to quincunx's point that planning for and accommodating a new station and orienting investments toward anticipated transit can have a positive impact on development in an area before a single platform is built.

Realistically, we need a comprehensive transit system. Each additional line, including Westport, adds to the viability of the system. I know we will eventually see a completed Metrolink system, its just as matter of who gets what first, and like DB said, Westport has the most institutional and economic pull. There are really no champions for expansion in North or South City, even though they are the most transit dependent and densest neighborhoods. One other factor that was talked about years ago in regards to Westport is the fact that people from St. Louis City would be able to access "service" jobs in West County that are currently not being filled by affluent teens that drive BMWs to school. So that's another big push. Many of the people riding out to West County will be single moms and poor teens from St. Louis City.

You know, if STL City was the biggest single municipality within St. Louis County instead of the county's biggest competitor, I'd bet Stenger would feel just a bit differently about the viability of N-S.

-RBB

dbInSouthCity wrote:Yet the metrolink station in the middle of cortex will open in 2018...16 years after cortex started

yes but surely you've noticed that CORTEX development has only ramped up in the last few years. for most of those 16 years it was one building.

urban_dilettante wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote:^ demand for development in west county (RGA, mercy, bunge, edgewell, Centene, bjc ect)...there is no demand for any sorts of transit in west county. But yet they are doing well...good schools no crime

they may be "doing well" by their standards, but anyone who doesn't want to drive 30 minutes each way to work (or anywhere else for that matter), or who values a walkable environment, probably has different standards.

I don't understand where people develop this sort of mentality.

I've lived in the city for nine years now. My girlfriend and I are about to buy our first-ever house in the City. I love the City, and its culture, and its walkability.

Having said that, I grew up in West St. Louis County. My father is a lawyer who works in Clayton. He commutes 15 minutes to his job (as it turns out, I am also a lawyer whose office is in Clayton, and I also commute 15 minutes to my job from my apartment in the city). For people who work at Boeing, Scottrade, CenturyLink, Energizer, Edward Jones, Monsanto, or any of the other major headquarters in St. Louis County, the commute is often even shorter. The commute from one's home in West County for pretty much anything else (shopping at premium stores, eating at great restaurants, hanging out at great bars, going to church, etc.) is under ten minutes, and usually even under five minutes.

Trust me: for pretty much everyone living out in West St. Louis County, the only thing that's a 30 minute commute is a Cardinals or Blues game. That's pretty much the only reason for going into the city from their perspective, anyway, other than maybe to occasionally try a trendy new restaurant they read about in Sauce magazine.

So, please, let's abandon the notion that living in West County dooms you to 1-hour round-trip commutes to work, much less "anywhere else, for that matter." It's absurdly wrong.

Furthermore, we live in an auto-centric country. Yes, the idea of walkable neighborhoods is probably nice for most, but it's also not anywhere near a priority when determining where to live for most... certainly not behind crime and schools (and, frankly, the number of people who look different from they do living nearby).

When talking about region-wide policy, I think it's important to have a realistic appraisal of the way most people who live in the region actually think.

Mound, I had the same thought, but MOST of the region does not live in West County despite the fact that it's increasingly where our business HQs are located.

I would venture a guess that the majority of the people who work in those office parks DO indeed have at least a 30 minute commute.

But, to back your general point, with slightly different reasoning, I'd also say that to those people the 30 minute commute isn't something they think about. It just... is.

And then your point about commute time to everything but work is likely spot on. Everything else they do is almost certainly within 5-15 minutes.

rbb wrote:You know, if STL City was the biggest single municipality within St. Louis County instead of the county's biggest competitor, I'd bet Stenger would feel just a bit differently about the viability of N-S.

Amen

^^^ well, as long as we're sharing anecdotes, my experience growing up (mostly) in Fenton was much different. both of my parents had daily commutes of ~30 min each way between Fenton and BJC (the largest employer in the region) and SSM where they worked, respectively. i had a 30 minute commute from Fenton to Immaculate Heart of Mary and then to SLUH. and then when i moved back after college, a 30-minute commute from Fenton to Wash. U. Med where i worked. moreover, as jstriebel alluded, jobs are relocating to West County BECAUSE of the sprawl, not the other way around. so if people's commutes in the county are getting shorter it's because sprawl development patterns continue to pilfer jobs from the city. what are the numbers again? the metro area has grown by something like 300% over the last 5 decades while the metro population has grown by 2%?

Furthermore, we live in an auto-centric country. Yes, the idea of walkable neighborhoods is probably nice for most, but it's also not anywhere near a priority when determining where to live for most... certainly not behind crime and schools (and, frankly, the number of people who look different from they do living nearby).

yes, we were all just plopped down into an auto-centric country. considering that the majority of the wold's population lives in cities, i'd say "the idea of walkable neighborhoods is probably nice for most" is an understatement. unlike much of the world, though, the US has been on a crusade to destroy its cities by subsidizing sprawl for the benefit of the construction and auto industries.

I live in Southampton and my commute to work in west county (64/141) is 22 min each way. Half the time is getting from Macklind/Lansdowne to 64/Hampton. 11 min from Hampton to 141 exit

Would love a I64 brt if it got me there in 35 min. Normal bus takes about 1.5 hours

urban_dilettante wrote: yes, we were all just plopped down into an auto-centric country. considering that the majority of the wold's population lives in cities, i'd say "the idea of walkable neighborhoods is probably nice for most" is an understatement. unlike much of the world, though, the US has been on a crusade to destroy its cities by subsidizing sprawl for the benefit of the construction and auto industries.

If you haven't really experienced the benefits of walkable neighborhoods, it's just "that place where it's a pain in the butt to fit my pickup truck through the narrow streets". People are so used to driving everywhere and strolling through 150' of asphalt parking lot that they don't even think about it.

shimmy wrote:I also chose to live farther from work so that I could live in a more cultural and walkable (for Newport News standards) part of the city, but when the wife and I go out more times than not we're hopping in the car and going somewhere else in the city.

but... but... smh

From Metro

The City of St. Louis has expressed a desire to explore options for constructing a Northside-Southside MetroLink expansion in the vicinity of the planned NGA facility in North City. The process for pursuing this option is to conduct planning, environmental, and design work to determine the precise design, cost and impacts of this project. The City of St. Louis, East-West Gateway Council of Governments, and Metro are collaborating on this endeavor. Before this project could move forward, the region would have to produce sufficient financial resources to support about half of construction costs, and all of the cost to operate the new service. Federal funding would be required to complete the balance of financial needs, and that is a competitive process. The planning and design work I mentioned previously is a first step in that funding process.

The City of St. Louis, East-West Gateway Council of Governments, and Metro are actively working to move planning and design of Northshide-Southside forward. This includes defining the technical elements that need to be completed, and securing funding to support that work. I anticipate work will begin this year.

Consider when people say there's no money that we're coming up with $4.7B for sewer improvements plus throwing away $2B more on bond interest and fees.

^ Not to mention Convention center ballroom expansion & upgrades when that is finally put forth at some point and for the city, Scottrade upgrades and possibility of MLS stadium in the mix.

quincunx wrote:Consider when people say there's no money that we're coming up with $4.7B for sewer improvements plus throwing away $2B more on bond interest and fees.

The St. Louis region HAS the money to build out the full Moving Transit Forward vision if it wants. The problem in St. Louis has and will be, lack of coordination, fragmentation, and basically just overall bad policy decisions. There is a misconception that St. Louis is a poor region, that couldn't be further from the truth. St. Louis has higher incomes than many of our "peer" regions, but if it isnt getting leveraged appropriately, we dont get the bang for our buck.

I'm trying to remember, but did the Northside route go near where the NSA is going to build or was it closer to 70? And how practical would it be to build in phases? Since at this point I picture any Northside route will go by NSA, but arguments could be made was to weather it connects to current line by going east or south.