Northside-Southside Metrolink

STLCityMike · PostMay 16, 2024#18762024-05-16T21:36+00:00

In my dreams, the red and blue line split in the central corridor and one aligns more on the north side, say along Washington Ave. Maybe the red line since it continues north to the airport.

I know getting through the Central West End on the north side is a pipe dream, but I feel that helps generate more opportunities for development on the north side of the corridor, and downtown needs that.

symphonicpoet · PostMay 17, 2024#18772024-05-17T05:45+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
May 16, 2024
this concept predated the NGA decision by almost a decade, but even given the changes since then its still my fantasy pick.

You ever put your line into NIMBY Rails? If you're not familiar, it's a fun little game available through Steam for a fairly reasonable price that lets you lay down passenger rail transit on an OS map of the world. It incorporates population density data and some basic (European) building cost estimates. It aspired to be in a space between game and planning tool. If you haven't tried it, you should. You can even turn off the money, just build your dream system, and run trains on it to see how it works. It's a great little game. (I rebuilt Union Station and I've run trains out in every direction. I'm pushing forty million people a year through the station, more or less. I think. If my estimates are correct.)

Anyway, my fantasy Metrolink line used the IT subway under Tucker and went out to Granite City and Edwardsville. I finally built it in game. I haven't connected it to the Red and Blue lines yet, even though I originally planned to. My current fantasy is more like "What would you get if you put Accela grade stuff on the 1960s rail network." So I just left it as it really was and didn't connect it directly. (Though it's easy enough to grab a bus between the two.) Maybe I'll connect it, but I've become obsessed with recreating old stations, so it's hard to give up on the IT passenger depot. (I also put the Wabash back in next to Metrolink! FOUR TRACKS baby! Lord god did Delmar Station get busy all of a sudden. There might be thirty million people a year passing through Delmar. It's bursting at the seems, since half the people who want to go west get on there and not at Union Station. And I'm trying to figure out how to relieve a bit of the pressure. Aside from canceling stops on the Kansas City service, that is.)

Anyway, I digress. Back to real world transit.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostMay 17, 2024#18782024-05-17T14:26+00:00

Rode the Metro in Minneapolis a few times this week. For those who don't know this system is a pretty similar format to what we will get in STL.

Trains was pretty busy all three times I rode, even once around 10pm
The stations don't have turnstiles or anything. Seemed to work pretty well although I'm sure there were fare evaders
They are constructing a third extension as we speak and seem to be planning another (the Blue Line)
Stations are fairly close together which slows things down but is great for development around the stations. (our line would be shorter so time is less of a problem to add back in Russell and Arsenal stops)
I liked it and will be excited to see it in STL.

airforceguy1 · PostJun 05, 2024#18792024-06-05T22:24+00:00

Looks like the extension of the Green Line into North County may not happen. The county may look at a new line from an existing Red Line station or even BRT.
New St. Louis MetroLink line connecting to North County may not happen

County Executive Sam Page's administration has rejected four alternative North County routes recommended last year by a consulting firm that would have each begun at Natural Bridge Avenue and North Grand Boulevard in north St. Louis city. "It's back to the drawing board," said Doug Moore, a spokesman for Page. A key problem, Moore said, is cash: No local funding source has been identified to help pay for connecting the northern end of the city's proposed "green line" — at Natural Bridge and Grand — and the city-county boundary. It's a gap of more than 3 miles.

The planned city green line would go to the new National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency complex northwest of downtown and then head to the city's south side. The county has told its consulting firm, AECOM, to develop other light rail options for North County, emphasizing possible northward spurs from MetroLink's existing red line that ends at St. Louis Lambert International Airport. A report is expected by the fall. One possibility, county officials say, is a new line that would go from an existing red line station at the University of Missouri-St. Louis to the North County Transit Center just south of Interstate 270 in Ferguson, where several Metro bus lines stop. That was part of one of the four alternatives rejected by the county.

AECOM also has been asked to study the use of rapid bus lines, either using new rights-of-way just for buses or designated lanes on existing roads. Those could be deployed instead of MetroLink expansion or in conjunction with it."The idea to connect to the green line is not dead but if done by light rail, there must be a champion agency that can fund and build the connection in the city that would allow the county line to connect to it," Moore said in an email."A relatively flexible rapid transit (bus) option could also connect to the green line."
The city and the Bi-State Development Agency, which operates MetroLink, already plan to seek hundreds of millions of federal dollars to pay for most of the 5.6-mile green line to the NGA, with a city sales tax dedicated to MetroLink expansion covering the rest.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/government-politics/new-st-louis-metrolink-line-connecting-to-north-county-may-not-happen/article_10b6ae5a-21f5-11ef-af1c-9b89ba943195.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

goat314 · PostJun 06, 2024#18802024-06-06T00:29+00:00

airforceguy1 wrote: ↑
Jun 05, 2024
Looks like the extension of the Green Line into North County may not happen. The county may look at a new line from an existing Red Line station or even BRT.
New St. Louis MetroLink line connecting to North County may not happen

County Executive Sam Page's administration has rejected four alternative North County routes recommended last year by a consulting firm that would have each begun at Natural Bridge Avenue and North Grand Boulevard in north St. Louis city. "It's back to the drawing board," said Doug Moore, a spokesman for Page. A key problem, Moore said, is cash: No local funding source has been identified to help pay for connecting the northern end of the city's proposed "green line" — at Natural Bridge and Grand — and the city-county boundary. It's a gap of more than 3 miles.

The planned city green line would go to the new National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency complex northwest of downtown and then head to the city's south side. The county has told its consulting firm, AECOM, to develop other light rail options for North County, emphasizing possible northward spurs from MetroLink's existing red line that ends at St. Louis Lambert International Airport. A report is expected by the fall. One possibility, county officials say, is a new line that would go from an existing red line station at the University of Missouri-St. Louis to the North County Transit Center just south of Interstate 270 in Ferguson, where several Metro bus lines stop. That was part of one of the four alternatives rejected by the county.

AECOM also has been asked to study the use of rapid bus lines, either using new rights-of-way just for buses or designated lanes on existing roads. Those could be deployed instead of MetroLink expansion or in conjunction with it."The idea to connect to the green line is not dead but if done by light rail, there must be a champion agency that can fund and build the connection in the city that would allow the county line to connect to it," Moore said in an email."A relatively flexible rapid transit (bus) option could also connect to the green line."
The city and the Bi-State Development Agency, which operates MetroLink, already plan to seek hundreds of millions of federal dollars to pay for most of the 5.6-mile green line to the NGA, with a city sales tax dedicated to MetroLink expansion covering the rest.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/government-politics/new-st-louis-metrolink-line-connecting-to-north-county-may-not-happen/article_10b6ae5a-21f5-11ef-af1c-9b89ba943195.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

I'm not surprised. It was never going to happen unless the city and county coordinated together. The county is unwilling to pay for the 3 miles of rail that would be in the city. I honestly think that none of the North County routes were particularly good routes, because I don't think street running light rail is effective over distances that long. I also think the city should have dead ended N-S Metrolink at Natural Bridge and Kingshigway, the Grand and Natural Bridge terminus has always been a head scratcher to me and I think it should go deeper into North City neighborhoods where it would get more use. I think a short spur to Florissant from the Red Line could be a good route. Or maybe BRT to North County and possibly pursue the Wesport line, which would spread the reach of Metrolink.

Ebsy · PostJun 06, 2024#18812024-06-06T04:48+00:00

Discouraging if not unexpected. Hard to believe what feels like a lifetime ago, the initial proposal for N-S metrolink was like from Flo Valley all the way to South County. We will be lucky if they build a third of that in the next decade.

goat314 · PostJun 06, 2024#18822024-06-06T04:55+00:00

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
Discouraging if not unexpected. Hard to believe what feels like a lifetime ago, the initial proposal for N-S metrolink was like from Flo Valley all the way to South County. We will be lucky if they build a third of that in the next decade.

That line could have been built, unfortunately we had inmate Stenger in the county and do-nothing Slay in the city. When these proposals started coming out 15-20 years ago, we could have built the whole line for 1 billion dollars. Thinking about how cross county was about $600 million with cost overruns and heavy tunneling, no federal support. Realistically, St. Louis should have went the Denver route and built it all at once, but St. Louis.

Ebsy · PostJun 06, 2024#18832024-06-06T05:01+00:00

goat314 wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
Discouraging if not unexpected. Hard to believe what feels like a lifetime ago, the initial proposal for N-S metrolink was like from Flo Valley all the way to South County. We will be lucky if they build a third of that in the next decade.
That line could have been built, unfortunately we had inmate Stenger in the county and do-nothing Slay in the city. When these proposals started coming out 15-20 years ago, we could have built the whole line for 1 billion dollars. Thinking about how cross county was about $600 million with cost overruns and heavy tunneling, no federal support. Realistically, St. Louis should have went the Denver route and built it all at once, but St. Louis.

It really feels like we missed the boat and I wonder if a total reassessment would not be better than proceeding with this line that seems almost certain to be a failure. Mentions of BRT keeps being thrown around but has anyone seriously looked at what kind of BRT network could be built for say, half the cost of the Green line?

goat314 · PostJun 06, 2024#18842024-06-06T05:29+00:00

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
goat314 wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jun 06, 2024
Discouraging if not unexpected. Hard to believe what feels like a lifetime ago, the initial proposal for N-S metrolink was like from Flo Valley all the way to South County. We will be lucky if they build a third of that in the next decade.
That line could have been built, unfortunately we had inmate Stenger in the county and do-nothing Slay in the city. When these proposals started coming out 15-20 years ago, we could have built the whole line for 1 billion dollars. Thinking about how cross county was about $600 million with cost overruns and heavy tunneling, no federal support. Realistically, St. Louis should have went the Denver route and built it all at once, but St. Louis.
It really feels like we missed the boat and I wonder if a total reassessment would not be better than proceeding with this line that seems almost certain to be a failure. Mentions of BRT keeps being thrown around but has anyone seriously looked at what kind of BRT network could be built for say, half the cost of the Green line?

I'm not a believer in BRT. At least how it's been done in the US. I also think if you go with Gold Standard BRT, you might as well build LRT. At this point, I'd rather see them scrap the Green Line and go with a N-S modern streetcar. We could probably get from Jefferson and Chippewa to Natural Bridge and Kingshighway with a modern streetcar for half the cost of what the Green Line was going for. I say let the county do whatever they want with busses or a short LRT spur. I wouldn't be surprised if the county scraps NoCo metrolink and gives them BRT. Only to turn around in a decade trying to build an extension to the Danforth Plant Science Center and Westport, not to mention that downtown Creve Coeur development moving forward on Lindbergh. The county has been wanting the Westport line for 20 years, it's just after Ferguson the idea of N-S Metrolink in the county resurfaced. It's just not politically digestible right now to say hey let's scrap a major infrastructure investment in a working class, primarily black district and instead build into a wealthier, primarily white district, but I think that's really what St. Louis business/civic community would rather see.

addxb2 · PostJun 06, 2024#18852024-06-06T14:32+00:00

This is great news!

MetroLink shouldn’t be extended in the County and the City shouldn’t be considering further investments solely to make a connection to City-County line.

A BRT line with 10 minute frequency between UMSL and the North County Transit center would be “cheap” and would deliver the same value.

The city needs to focus on building the Green Line and fixing zoning to support TOD.

STLCityMike · PostJun 06, 2024#18862024-06-06T18:46+00:00

I guess I am in the minority but I WANT this line as a resident along its corridor. We need to connect more parts of our city and especially the north and south sides. Perhaps a successful implementation of this would encourage the county to reconsider.

symphonicpoet · PostJun 07, 2024#18872024-06-07T04:17+00:00

^Hey, if it doesn't get extended up to UMSL maybe it could be extended down to Loughborough Commons, as originally intended, instead.

MarkHaversham · PostJun 11, 2024#18882024-06-11T22:03+00:00

If we were thinking of alternative ways to spend a billion plus tens of millions per year, why not just upgrade a couple hundred miles of normal buses to 10-minute frequency?

SeattleNative · PostJun 12, 2024#18892024-06-12T12:46+00:00

MarkHaversham wrote:If we were thinking of alternative ways to spend a billion plus tens of millions per year, why not just upgrade a couple hundred miles of normal buses to 10-minute frequency?

Would federal match grants extend the city’s investment as far for bus frequency upgrades?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dbInSouthCity · PostJun 12, 2024#18902024-06-12T12:53+00:00

SeattleNative wrote: ↑
Jun 12, 2024
MarkHaversham wrote:If we were thinking of alternative ways to spend a billion plus tens of millions per year, why not just upgrade a couple hundred miles of normal buses to 10-minute frequency?
Would federal match grants extend the city’s investment as far for bus frequency upgrades?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you cant use fed matching for operational costs

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostJun 12, 2024#18912024-06-12T15:03+00:00

They were doing some core drilling on South Jefferson yesterday

MarkHaversham · PostJun 18, 2024#18922024-06-18T15:30+00:00

SeattleNative wrote: ↑
Jun 12, 2024
MarkHaversham wrote:If we were thinking of alternative ways to spend a billion plus tens of millions per year, why not just upgrade a couple hundred miles of normal buses to 10-minute frequency?
Would federal match grants extend the city’s investment as far for bus frequency upgrades?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not like they couldn't. Make it a hundred miles and earmark the other half of the money for bribing senators, that would be a better use of money than some of these Metrolink proposals.

quincunx · PostJun 18, 2024#18932024-06-18T16:54+00:00

A report on Federal transit funding including operations funding.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R47900

goat314 · PostJun 18, 2024#18942024-06-18T21:24+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Jun 18, 2024
A report on Federal transit funding including operations funding.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R47900

Federal operating assistance would be huge for regions like St. Louis that already have a dedicated local pot for Metrolink. All of a sudden expansions becomes more financially feasible. I'd like to see the the feds make transit capital projects 80/20 again too, I heard that's how the 70s era subways projects got funded. That with federal operating assistance, that changes the game for transit nationwide. Could you imagine if the local match for N-S was only $200M?

quincunx · PostJul 02, 2024#18952024-07-02T22:43+00:00

BB13, reducing land area requirements by 40%, increasing max height in F an G zone from 3 to 4 stories, and parking mandate reduction by 25% along the line, passed out of HUDZ Cmte today.

BB overview
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/c ... s.pptx.pdf

leeharveyawesome · PostAug 04, 2024#18962024-08-04T11:34+00:00

After several years of advocating for a North South Metrolink I no longer support the idea. Too many issues popping up, no stop at Russell, there's just not enough people, permanent tracks are expensive and disruptive and take forever to build, etc. As much as I'd like to dream about a an actual Metrolink system it's simply way too late for that.

This interview with David Stokes from Show Me Institute sums it up more succinctly.

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/ne ... 4Y-yvB0Cn/#

Try legitimate high frequency BRT. More routes, moveable, way cheaper.

Side note, why doesn't anyone ever consider trackless trams!

chris fuller · PostAug 04, 2024#18972024-08-04T12:57+00:00

loop trolley II Love It!

JaneJacobsGhost · PostAug 04, 2024#18982024-08-04T15:19+00:00

The Show Me Institute is hacky republican “think tank”. Nothing about their “research” is genuine. Their plain objective is to turn people against the government with intentional misrepresentations of cherry picked facts.

leeharveyawesome · PostAug 04, 2024#18992024-08-04T15:43+00:00

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑
Aug 04, 2024
The Show Me Institute is hacky republican “think tank”. Nothing about their “research” is genuine. Their plain objective is to turn people against the government with intentional misrepresentations of cherry picked facts.

Nobody who actually listened to that interview would call it hacky. I dare you to listen to it.

verdantruins · PostAug 04, 2024#19002024-08-04T19:23+00:00

leeharveyawesome wrote: ↑
Aug 04, 2024
JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑
Aug 04, 2024
The Show Me Institute is hacky republican “think tank”. Nothing about their “research” is genuine. Their plain objective is to turn people against the government with intentional misrepresentations of cherry picked facts.
Nobody who actually listened to that interview would call it hacky. I dare you to listen to it.

I listened to it. Thought it was hacky. Most of that was the conservative talk radio host dudes just chortling like idiots at the cities problems. The interviewee makes some valid points but isn't trying to wade into the rest of the argument regarding induced developement. Instead he plays into liberatarian big government tropes.

All this said. I actually came to the same conclusion several months ago. BRT is the better solution here. We should be building more robust true BRT and not a compromised version of LRT. Agree that theres a good chance that the FEDs will see it the same way, and if the city is forced to recalibrate to BRT, I'm sure we'd get it much sooner.

Northside-Southside Metrolink

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