urbanSTL

Jefferson/I-55 Line



+ More Direct

+ TOD will bring the rehabbing neighborhoods to higher levels of reinvestment to mirror Soulard and Lafayette Square with new construction

+ Jefferson neighborhoods are more compact and like small towns than those west of Grand [McKinley Heights, Fox Park, Benton Park, Benton Park West, Marquette]

+ Jefferson neighborhoods are located closer to downtown with multiple less congested roads [Broadway/7th, 12th, 14th, Jefferson]

+ Closer proximity also means greater ability to spur development that could bridge the gap between neighborhoods and downtown

+ Fewer stations along I-55 in lower density areas south of Chippewa

+ Quicker connection to Near South County [Lemay] allowing for denser older areas in the County to be served

+ Jefferson line does not attempt to try to serve 2/3 of South City but 1/3 with efficiency. Let future lines under Grand, down Gravois, along Kingshighway, and Hampton serve those areas in due time

SMSPlanstu wrote:Jefferson/I-55 Line



+ More Direct

+ TOD will bring the rehabbing neighborhoods to higher levels of reinvestment to mirror Soulard and Lafayette Square with new construction

+ Jefferson neighborhoods are more compact and like small towns than those west of Grand [McKinley Heights, Fox Park, Benton Park, Benton Park West, Marquette]

+ Jefferson neighborhoods are located closer to downtown with multiple less congested roads [Broadway/7th, 12th, 14th, Jefferson]

+ Closer proximity also means greater ability to spur development that could bridge the gap between neighborhoods and downtown

+ Fewer stations along I-55 in lower density areas south of Chippewa

+ Quicker connection to Near South County [Lemay] allowing for denser older areas in the County to be served

+ Jefferson line does not attempt to try to serve 2/3 of South City but 1/3 with efficiency. Let future lines under Grand, down Gravois, along Kingshighway, and Hampton serve those areas in due time

Can someone tell me what this is going to look like if it runs Jefferson? Will it be below grade like in parts of U City? Will it be at street level? If so which lane will it take up? I'm having a hard time picturing it at this early stage.

^ See page 7 and page 8 on the Northside-Southside Study website. There you can see renderings of MetroLink running down the middle of Natural Bridge at Newstead on the northside and Gravois at Potomac on the southside. Jefferson will likely be just like those two example with MetroLink running down the middle of the street with signal preemption. To make way for MetroLink, the first thing to go will be the on-street parking.

Mill204 wrote:^ See page 7 and page 8 on the Northside-Southside Study website. There you can see renderings of MetroLink running down the middle of Natural Bridge at Newstead on the northside and Gravois at Potomac on the southside. Jefferson will likely be just like those two example with MetroLink running down the middle of the street with signal preemption. To make way for MetroLink, the first thing to go will be the on-street parking.

Thanks Mill204. That's a huge help. I've not been a mass transit guy before, and they are proposing a stop in front of a building I own and I'm trying to decide how to read it exactly. It looks dangerous with people getting on and off and cars crossing, but that part certainly isn't my decision to make. It'll be an interesting process to watch.

Im a big fan of these trains. Alot more than the current Metro cars. I know theyre different because theyre street level, but they just look so much cooler.

Mill204 wrote:^ See page 7 and page 8 on the Northside-Southside Study website. There you can see renderings of MetroLink running down the middle of Natural Bridge at Newstead on the northside and Gravois at Potomac on the southside. Jefferson will likely be just like those two example with MetroLink running down the middle of the street with signal preemption. To make way for MetroLink, the first thing to go will be the on-street parking.

I don't think on-street parking will be eliminated entirely with this project, only at the stations. One through traffic lane may go, however.

Jefferson is generally 100-feet wide, and in places, 120-feet wide. The median for trains is only 27-feet wide, while 37 feet at stations (10-foot, single-sided, far-side loading, low-platform). Hence, on-street parking is only definitely lost at stations, which are generally located at major intersections. And as the picture shows, another reason parking is lost at major intersections is to provide a dedicated left-turn lane, since motorists may only safely turn left with green arrows (no left turn yield).

I just received this announcement. I think it would be particularly beneficial to have those on this forum in attendance. I'm impressed by their findings and proposed implementation in their online report - looks like actual work was done.

Public involvement in the Northside-Southside Transit Improvements Study is important to the study¹s success. Since the study began in 2006, many organizations such as yours have helped us get input from more than 1,600 citizens by allowing us to brief their community groups.



Now we have scheduled our final round of public meetings and we need you and your neighbors to come tell us what you think about our potential MetroLink expansion routes for the City of St. Louis. The Public Open House Meetings are September 18-20, 2007 and we hope we can continue to count on your involvement. I have attached a flyer listing the dates, times and locations.



Please post the information so your members and clients can come to the meeting.



There are numerous opportunities for you and your neighbors to give your input:



Call us at 314-621-3385, email us at nscomments@ewgateway.org or you can visit our website at www.northsouthstudy.org for updates.



Thanks again for your involvement!

Mandi



--

Mandi Voegele

Project Coordinator

Vector Communications Corp.

701 N. 15th Street

Mailbox 43

St. Louis, MO 63103

(v) 314-621-5566

(f) 314-621-5599

mvoegele@vector-comm-corp.com

Here is the Public Open Houses on-line PDF flyer.

Please keep those of who cannot make it informed on what is said or given at the meetings such as the final routes and how they are going to get financing and when they might build it.



Thanks,

Would love to see a southside extension.

Loughborough station would be sweet.

Wow, the Jefferson line would include a Bates/Virginia station, that would be great for me. There is so much potential in so many of these areas for developement from something like this. Jefferson and Gravois both seem like pretty logical and useful locations

^The alternative down Gravois was eliminated, mostly due to physical constraints west of Grand and traffic impacts along much of the route. However, the Jefferson alternative would still have a station at Gravois and Jefferson. Gravois remains only an option for Bus Rapid Transit (BRT).



Meeting attendees will see that the southside light-rail alternatives are down to two alternatives: Chouteau-UPRR or Jefferson-55. Both are fairly comparable in cost, ridership and impacts. However, the political unknown of whether Union Pacific would ever accept the necessary 50-foot horizontal separation or less along their freight line makes Jefferson-55 the likely preferred alternative for Southside MetroLink.

southslider wrote:^The alternative down Gravois was eliminated, mostly due to physical constraints west of Grand and traffic impacts along much of the route. However, the Jefferson alternative would still have a station at Gravois and Jefferson. Gravois remains only an option for Bus Rapid Transit (BRT).



Meeting attendees will see that the southside light-rail alternatives are down to two alternatives: Chouteau-UPRR or Jefferson-55. Both are fairly comparable in cost, ridership and impacts. However, the political unknown of whether Union Pacific would ever accept the necessary 50-foot horizontal separation or less along their freight line makes Jefferson-55 the likely preferred alternative for Southside MetroLink.

As of very recently, I really liked the Chouteau-UPRR line. I felt that using existing rail lines made since, and it did hit a couple of good spots near the Hill and Botanical Gardens. Now, after reading the findings, I've completely swapped my thoughts and much more support the Jefferson/I-55 line. Why? This runs through IMO a much more dense area. The other line runs mostly through existing lower-density (for the city) areas that are already well established and offer little to no possibility at new high-density urban development.



The Jefferson line, however, runs down a largely under-utilized Jefferson avenue and taps into the neighborhood explosion areas - Lafayette Square, Benton Park/BP West. I see strong reasons for developers to build dense urban development along Jefferson with the line in, and this continuing the rehab and development of these areas. My vote is definately for this line now - it just makes more sense. I also like the loop downtown that runs east-west more than the tighter loop. I think this makes the loft developments more accessible, and provides better chances of further high-density development in the Downtown West neighborhood.

kustramo wrote:Wow, the Jefferson line would include a Bates/Virginia station, that would be great for me.

It would be convenient for me too. I'd be especially giddy if we could lose that 7-11 and BP station in the process.

^Neither of those corners are needed to build the conceptual station or alignment as the Southside MetroLink would be one block southeast of the actual Bates-Virginia intersection along the west side of I-55. "Bates & Virginia" is also the only elevated station along the entire Northside-Southside project (all others at-grade/fill, zero below-grade).



The Jefferson-55 alignment enters MODOT right-of-way via Piedmont (next to Walgreens) just south of Gasconade, staying on the west side of I-55 until crossing over the highway just south of Virginia and then staying on the east side of I-55 out into South County. Unlike the section of the Southside MetroLink along Jefferson, stations along I-55 have greater spacing. There are only three stations within the City along I-55. South Broadway station is on fill next to the closed Big Lots (a potential TOD site), the Bates-Virginia station is elevated along the west side of I-55, and the Loughborough station is on fill in the northeast quadrant of the interchange with a modified I-55 northbound on-ramp to build such station.



Many of the ramps along I-55 would be modified between Gasconade and Loughborough to minimize property impacts, without modifying the through-lanes of I-55. For example, the southbound I-55 on-ramp at 4500 South Broadway would be built closer to the highway in order to avoid impact to the Mount Pleasant school.



If you want to see the conceptual design, I suggest going to the Public Open Houses. Only the reports and limited visuals will likely be posted to the study website.

Is there any realistic possibility for this happening within the next 5-10 years?



Oh, btw, I've got no problem with the 7-11 or BP, we need more retail, not less. I could see a whole lot of TOD on Bates and Virginia if this thing is built

^Have you ever been in the BP? I know that drug sales were probably more common than gas sales about a year ago.

Even if funding were in place, it would be about ten years before such an extension would even open for service. The equivalent of this Northside-Southside Study was completed on Cross County back in 1997.



Realistically, however, the County has more political will to build the next extension. City residents are likely more pro-transit than County residents, but recently, County Executive Dooley has grown more supportive of an expanded funding source for Metro, while Mayor Slay has quietly opposed the necessary tax increase.



Additionally, County leaders all seem to agree on where the next line should go (Westport), while City aldermen debate north verses south (despite this study's unified approach), street-running operations (despite its wide application elsewhere), and even the alignment's location along Jefferson and Natural Bridge.



Finally, the business community led by non-City residents largely sees the City already served by existing lines and desires more suburban expansion for their employees commuting longer distances.

southslider wrote:City residents are likely more pro-transit than County residents, but recently, County Executive Dooley has grown more supportive of an expanded funding source for Metro, while Mayor Slay has quietly opposed the necessary tax increase.

Out of curiosity, what rationale has Mayor Slay advanced for opposing the necessary tax increase? That strikes me as nothing short of ludicrious. Particularly given the proposed structure of the proposed Northside/Southside line -- with a loop downtown -- no area has more to gain from additional Metrolink service than the City.

I could be wrong and presumptuous, but I also think there's less of a chance that NIMBYs, CAVEmen, and BANANAs will derail Metrolink expansion in the city proper.



From what I heard, some of those meetings for the extension of the Shrewsbury line into South County were a trip.

Right now there is a 1/4 cent sales tax that was approved by the voters in the City that isn't being collected until the County voters approve it on their end. I think Slay knows the momentum for the next extension is to Westport. If it is an extension of the Northside MetroLink that'd be great. Sslider knows what the thinking is at Room 200, a politician wanting a tax increase is always treading dangerous water. I think it's more of a wait and see attitude at this point.

MattnSTL wrote:Have you ever been in the BP? I know that drug sales were probably more common than gas sales about a year ago.

I'm not one to discourage businesses from opening and operating in the neighborhood either, but I think these places (esp. the 7-11) are rather shady. I'd rather go to the Grand and Bates Walgreens location if I need a snack or a soda. And I rarely use the BP anyway since its prices are usually higher than other nearby stations.