Believe it or not, streetcars used to be as common a mode of transportation as the automobile today.
I can't believe it.
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I can't believe it.
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They use streetcars as moving restaurants here. They get $100 pp, and are sold out year round. Of course - they move, unlike the ones in new town will.
I still don't get everyone's obsession with fixed rail streetcars. They're lower than buses and create just as much pollution when you add in all the fossil fuels it takes to power them. Clean burning buses are more environmentally friendly than street cars, and faster. They just have a massive stigma that buses are for poor people. Shrug.
I still don't get everyone's obsession with fixed rail streetcars. They're lower than buses and create just as much pollution when you add in all the fossil fuels it takes to power them. Clean burning buses are more environmentally friendly than street cars, and faster. They just have a massive stigma that buses are for poor people. Shrug.
^Streetcars are run by electricity, not internal combutstion engines.
^
Which only shifts the polluting from the vehicle to the power plant. (Miguel this was your point, correct?)
Diesel-electric hybrid buses are probably the best choice in that they allow greater flexibility for routes than rail. But yeah.... for some reason it's hard to convince middle class people to hop on a bus; even though they will ride metrolink to a cardinals game, etc.
Which only shifts the polluting from the vehicle to the power plant. (Miguel this was your point, correct?)
Diesel-electric hybrid buses are probably the best choice in that they allow greater flexibility for routes than rail. But yeah.... for some reason it's hard to convince middle class people to hop on a bus; even though they will ride metrolink to a cardinals game, etc.
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^ yes, that was my point. If metro spent as much money on PR and marketing as they did on boondoggles, the system would be 10x better than it is right now, with no added infrastructure necessary
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I like fixed rail streetcars because the (semi-)permanence of the route allows for TOD. I don't know of a business that takes into account bus routes when deciding where to build homes/condos/etc. Also, I find that fixed rail is more reliable - same routes - and more often on time because they aren't held up by traffic/stoplights. This is just my experience.
Tysalpha wrote:^
Which only shifts the polluting from the vehicle to the power plant. (Miguel this was your point, correct?)
Do we really want to rehash the old source-of-pollution discussion? Can not electricity be created with clean power, and even if created by coal, do not pollution controls enjoy an "economy of scale" that make electrical equivalent power cleaner than the same amount produced by fossil fuels at the vehicle itself?
It sounds like this line will be as much about heritage, nostalgia and economic development for New Town/St. Charles than about actual transit, and thus I don't get why folks bring up the fact that there are better forms of transit than a heritage trolley line. Of course there are, but no one's going to make a special trip to St. Charles or the Loop or wherever to ride a clean bus, but they will for a heritage trolley. It's just as much attraction as transit.
Modern street cars have a higher capacity per run than buses, almost triple depending on vehicle type. Also the long term costs are a fraction of what is is for buses. Lastly the vehicles have a much longer life expectancy than buses (how many 50 year old buses have you seen in service).
However, these old streetcars are essentially buses on tracks, and the fact that they will be old refurbished vehicles eliminates most of the benefits of fixed rail in my opinion.
However, these old streetcars are essentially buses on tracks, and the fact that they will be old refurbished vehicles eliminates most of the benefits of fixed rail in my opinion.
I just very recently read somewhere (?) that scientists have found a way to burn coal with hardly any pollutants. Anyone else read that?
bprop wrote:Tysalpha wrote:^
Which only shifts the polluting from the vehicle to the power plant. (Miguel this was your point, correct?)
Do we really want to rehash the old source-of-pollution discussion? Can not electricity be created with clean power, and even if created by coal, do not pollution controls enjoy an "economy of scale" that make electrical equivalent power cleaner than the same amount produced by fossil fuels at the vehicle itself?
Bprop, certainly you're correct about economies of scale in pollution control. My issue really is that -- like plug-in hybrids -- this is an easy way for people to wash their hands of a problem for which they hold some responsibility. Instead of optimizing their trips, living closer to work, or reducing consumption, they shift all of the burden to the power company. And then we wonder why we suffer more brown-outs, etc.
Didn't mean to derail this discussion, though.
Somewhat on topic, but if St. Charles had MetroLink to downtown St. Chuck (or close), with a connecting streetcar line, I would most likely make an occasional trip to Main Street, of which I've always been a fan.
I just hate driving there.
I just hate driving there.
I like downtown St. Charles too but hardly ever get out there. My friends who live out there prefer to come into the city for fun.
I hope residents don't resist a street car line on the argument that it would bring a "bad" element out from St. Charles to New Town or vice versa.
I hope residents don't resist a street car line on the argument that it would bring a "bad" element out from St. Charles to New Town or vice versa.
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Matt wrote:I hope residents don't resist a street car line on the argument that it would bring a "bad" element out from St. Charles to New Town or vice versa.
People, people, wake up! Go back and read what Whittaker Builders actually said. These streetcars are going to be used as stationary retail venues. The future transit system is just a pipe dream.
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Actually, this is not something brand new as they have been working on the streetcar line for well over a year. From what I understand they are looking at 2 initial routes. One is linking Old Town to New Town and the other is linking the St. Charles Convention Center to Old Town. I believe they want to start there and expand. And there is a apparently a growing sentiment to getting metrolink to get across the river. Of course, the higher gas prices help that as well. The question would seem to be will Metro cross the river and stop in the city of St. Charles, or will it make it further into St. Charles county?
I tracked down information I have on the routes being discussed for the trolley system in the city of St. Charles at this time. I don't have maps. From what I understand, the trolley system would be paid for and maintained by the city of St. Charles. One of the biggest reasons for going fixed rail was that TOD apparently is higher along fixed rail as opposed to bus routes. I can see that the NT-OT connector being used as some sort of kick start to help their N94 revitalization efforts.
There are two routes of the Trolley System proposed thus far:
o Convention Center – Old Town Circulator
o New Town - Old Town connector
The proposed plan calls for a possible bridge at Fairgrounds, this bridge would be in addition to the existing vehicular bridge across Highway 70 at Fairgrounds. The bridge would be solely for the purpose of moving the electric streetcar system over Highway 70 at Fairgrounds Road.
The proposed route shows the connector element going from Riverside, through the ACF property and then tying into the existing railroad tracks. The proposed route calls for the trolley to cross Main Street but not travel along the road.
There are two routes of the Trolley System proposed thus far:
o Convention Center – Old Town Circulator
o New Town - Old Town connector
The proposed plan calls for a possible bridge at Fairgrounds, this bridge would be in addition to the existing vehicular bridge across Highway 70 at Fairgrounds. The bridge would be solely for the purpose of moving the electric streetcar system over Highway 70 at Fairgrounds Road.
The proposed route shows the connector element going from Riverside, through the ACF property and then tying into the existing railroad tracks. The proposed route calls for the trolley to cross Main Street but not travel along the road.
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TOD apparently is higher along fixed rail as opposed to bus routes.
At least they've figured this much out. I'm in favor of added density in centers such as St. Charles, Creve Coeur, etc. In a sense it adds to sprawl with more people living further away from the StL City CBD, but if these communities provide work/shopping/schools and homes that great. What I think is harmful are the suburban developments of multi-thousands of homes that exclude shopping, offices, etc. through zoning - forcing everyone to use their cars for the simplest trip to the store.
I love streetcars, i had to go down and check em out...
Heres some pics.
Heres some pics.
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Great photos!
By the way, Tim Busse is on the record as saying that they are going to try and find out the original numbers and paint jobs these cars had when they were in service in Saint Louis. They're planning on repainting to match their original designations, if they can find them. They are working with a streetcar historian to find out as much as they can on them.
By the way, Tim Busse is on the record as saying that they are going to try and find out the original numbers and paint jobs these cars had when they were in service in Saint Louis. They're planning on repainting to match their original designations, if they can find them. They are working with a streetcar historian to find out as much as they can on them.
^Probably a loss leader for the developers. The streetcars/shops may cost more than they produce, but the added ambiance should help sell more homes in New Town.
Its funny how people here can get so picky about what should be restored, and what can be reused, based on its location.
Even with the costs (which i think would be less then a free standing building), its the reuse of something, which is a good thing. Its also mobile, which means that it can have multiple uses, in diff places. Another plus for the design.
I think green modular housing is going to make a comeback, and this is just another version of it.
Even with the costs (which i think would be less then a free standing building), its the reuse of something, which is a good thing. Its also mobile, which means that it can have multiple uses, in diff places. Another plus for the design.
I think green modular housing is going to make a comeback, and this is just another version of it.