urbanSTL

Skyhouse is supposedly going to contain a large amount of retail space on the first floor connecting intimately with the street (supposedly large enough to house the whole-foods they are trying to court). Robert's Tower is going to have a first floor cafe opening into the newly constructed OPO plaza (Both of which are actually being built as I type), BPV is almost entirely centered around the idea of the city-dwelling (slash ballpark visiting) pedestrian, and the MX is just about as damn street-level oriented as you can possibly get.



"I think this is something St. Louisans need to face up to and push for good new construction that will restore the street level to its proper prominence. Downtown St. Louis, on the whole, is kind of depressing. With some infill and demolished parking garages, this could change significantly."



The above fails to meet your criteria... how?



There is a serious need to stop b*tching about the past and start bringing life to the present/future. You have been on a bit of a slump lately tejada. Maybe it's time to lighten up a little bit.

migueltejada wrote:

steve wrote:I stopped reading after this statement. You obviously have not spent much time downtown, or if you have, you must not be a particularly observant individual.

Kettle, pot, pot, kettle?

No matter how you alter it, this has to be the most obnoxious cliche used in internet forums. I would advise you to stop using it, so that you wouldn't appear foolish, but then you write this, rendering any such advice moot:

migueltejada wrote:To wit: equity building, bank america, US Bank, all the office buildings in the office park north of washington near the convention center, Millenium hotel, Financial One center, Mark Twain Building, Metropolitan, the big black box on broadway (i think it's 505, but could be wrong), Adams Mark, Hamtpon Inn (landing), AG Edwards, St. Louis Centre, 1010 Laclede...



All of these are late 70s-80's constructions, heavy on the glass, low on the architectural elements - much like the buildings in west county.

Is that most of the buildings downtown? Hardly. I'm not going to waste my time--or yours--with a list.



Furthermore, you missed my point. Are there some buildings downtown that could do a better job of interacting with the casual pedestrian meandering downtown? Yes. But let's not forget that downtowns do not exist solely to appease the aesthetic demands of expatriate "intellectuals." People, at least in theory, should work there, and work ain't always pretty.



It is also important to keep in mind that Saint Louis is actually making progress. For once. No, we're not Urban Utopia. But Matt can't seem to accept our progress, or at least not without criticizing something else. That vexes me. I'm not sure if your half-hearted and inane attempt to defend his position vexes me more.

newstl2020 wrote:Skyhouse is supposedly going to contain a large amount of retail space on the first floor connecting intimately with the street (supposedly large enough to house the whole-foods they are trying to court). Robert's Tower is going to have a first floor cafe opening into the newly constructed OPO plaza (Both of which are actually being built as I type), BPV is almost entirely centered around the idea of the city-dwelling (slash ballpark visiting) pedestrian, and the MX is just about as damn street-level oriented as you can possibly get.



"I think this is something St. Louisans need to face up to and push for good new construction that will restore the street level to its proper prominence. Downtown St. Louis, on the whole, is kind of depressing. With some infill and demolished parking garages, this could change significantly."



The above fails to meet your criteria... how?



There is a serious need to stop b*tching about the past and start bringing life to the present/future. You have been on a bit of a slump lately tejada. Maybe it's time to lighten up a little bit.

First of all, I addressed the problems with the Skyhouse renderings. Obviously, the final product could turn out stellar.



Secondly, if you stopped reading after that comment, we simply disagree. But I and I would bet others from many different cities would declare much of downtown's newer construction (1950s and on) to be not simply ignorant of the downtown streetscape for the most part, but also blase in design--a fatal combo.



The Syndicate, Arcade, Old Post Office, Civil Courts, City Hall, the Municipal Courts, Chemical, Cupples Warehouses, Wainright, and Washington Avenue don't truly make a vibrant downtown. They're great buildings to be sure, but they can't outweigh all the built-in dead space downtown.



Anyway, this discussion should not be used to mire St. Louis in typical deadening negativity. It should serve as a mandate that our future be as pristinely committed to a wide consensus on good urban design that these discussions take place only marginally with the passing of this generation. Put more simply, let's as residents, loft owners, business owners, and civic boosters demand and approve only the best for downtown St. Louis. Let's as professionals in St. Louis work together toward offering an alternative to the mediocrity and short-sightedness that has been the halmark of planning in our (still) great city.

^^Well I will go ahead and admit I'm a little confused after the last post. I guess fundamentally we agree, as I realize many buildings in downtown were poorly designed from an urban street level perspective. That being said, I also agree with you about the need for a process to ensure that these urban mistakes are not replicated in the design and implementation of further development.



I disagreed with your initial posts based more upon the tone of the post, rather than the position you were trying to convey (that is, if your position was that which you displayed in the one immediately above this).



The past is the past. These buildings are not going to be torn down and replaced anytime soon, so I think it would be much more beneficial to explore possibilities to integrate them into the fabric of downtown, rather than finding the negatives that we allready know to exist.



And, for the record, I would much rather have 10 9 story parking garages downtown with no surface lots than no garages and surface lots. I think a large new garage with street level retail is a plus for downtown. Tearing down garages is not the answer. Including them in future buildings and building much more new construction around them is. PRESENT AND FUTURE!

Here is a rendering.

Say what you will about that rendering, but I'm very impressed it's not all concrete.

Looks nice enough to me. And like the fact that they are doing 20-foot sidewalks, especially on the Tucker side. They definitely could have taken a lesser attractive approach so nice to see they are trying to make something out of a parking garage.

I think it looks great - much better than I was expecting.

Let me apologize to Matt and Miguel. I posted while mad, which is never a good idea. I try to be as civil as possible on this forum--it's a remarkably civil place as far as internet forums go--and I failed. So I'm sorry for being rude.



But my underlying sentiment still stands. I'm downtown five to six days a week. I walk its streets. I work and play down here. I am, in my opinion, in a much better position to assess its strenghts and weaknesses, and there are plenty of weaknesss. But I think the strenghts outweight the weaknesses, even if many of those strengths still lie dormant. We are in the process, however, of awakening the giant. Given all the peculiar handicaps Saint Louis suffers, I think it's impressive that we have gotten where we are today after hitting bottom around 2000.



But back to the garage: frankly, I think it's kind of ugly, but I guess all garages are.

As far as parking garages go, it ain't half bad. Looks like a little thought went into the design, and there are no hubcaps. Of course, it's still a garage and not a real building, but it is what it is and that will not change at this point. I do like the 20 foot sidewalks and the trees. It may be a garage, but it will clean up the corner.



Now if we could just eliminate the city hall surface lot and build a garage and mixed use building on that site...

MattnSTL wrote:As far as parking garages go, it ain't half bad.

Yep, you are right, it is putrid.



I am neither a garage 'architect' nor a landscape architect, but I see no good reason why we can't have garages with vines, flowers, and whatnot. I've seen several examples around the country of garages that you can barely tell are garages for all of the greenery. They look more like vertical parks. Yet, I can't think of a single example in the St. Louis area. I will try to find some pics...



I understand that these are usually in warmer climates, but I know I have seen examples in areas with cold winters; in any case, there are these plants called 'evergreen' plants, that I hear might work...

That's a really cool idea. Puts a whole new spin on the phrase "urban jungle."

jlblues wrote:I am neither a garage 'architect' nor a landscape architect, but I see no good reason why we can't have garages with vines, flowers, and whatnot. I've seen several examples around the country of garages that you can barely tell are garages for all of the greenery. They look more like vertical parks. Yet, I can't think of a single example in the St. Louis area. I will try to find some pics...



I understand that these are usually in warmer climates, but I know I have seen examples in areas with cold winters; in any case, there are these plants called 'evergreen' plants, that I hear might work...

I've seen the same thing elsewhere as well, and it's a really cool idea.

In Miami's South Beach I saw a string of retail shops on the first floor with parking on the levels above covered with greenery. Who knew a parking garage would have tourists snapping pictures. Unfortunately I don't have the photos I took electronically or else I would post them.

irocktheparty2000 wrote:Here is a rendering.

looks better than the garage in the town where I went to school. We always called it the "Gerbil Cage."

^I'm gonna guess they got lucky.



The vine and plant idea is a good one. I've seen many examples of that.

I'm very excited about the LED lights. I don't know about the opinions of everyone else. But downtown South seems to be fairly dark in comparisson to the various lights/signage/etc in downtown North and West. This should help out, especially due to the fact that I find that intersection particularly depressing as it is. Glad there is some sense of design to it. I think it might turn out quite well depending on various lighting schemes that might be put into place. I for one would be for backlighting the exterior fascade elemnts that look to be placed over the concrete. Might create a pretty cool look. Thanks for the work irock!

newstl2020 wrote:I'm very excited about the LED lights. I don't know about the opinions of everyone else. But downtown South seems to be fairly dark in comparisson to the various lights/signage/etc in downtown North and West. This should help out, especially due to the fact that I find that intersection particularly depressing as it is. Glad there is some sense of design to it. I think it might turn out quite well depending on various lighting schemes that might be put into place. I for one would be for backlighting the exterior fascade elemnts that look to be placed over the concrete. Might create a pretty cool look. Thanks for the work irock!

That's so true. The redevelopment of Cupples Station is helping, and I think that once the powerhouse is renovated, that will help too. It would be nice to see some sort of accent lighting on the municipal garage (on the south side of Clark at Tucker), and perhaps the Globe Drug building will be renovated some day as well. It can be a little creepy around there sometimes.

And that utter POS garage that welcomes people downtown when they get off on the 11th Street ramp. Perhaps the nice people building the sculpture garden can set aside a little bit for a padded bra for that monstrosity.

Interesting car parks from around the world. No luck finding any pictures of vegetation-covered car parks on The Google, so far, but thought I'd share these:















Almost makes you actually like car parks as architecture, doesn't it? I don't think the last one is really a car park, it is a Prada store, at least on the ground floor, but a good idea nonetheless...

I still can't over the Century building being demolished for a concrete jungle, but these things are still better than surface lots because they save space.



It would be nice to add facade or bricks to a garage and make it blend in with the rest of the neighboring buildings. I like how some developers are doing that.

I think Luke slid down this thing at the end of Empire Strikes Back: