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PostMay 17, 2022#26

PeterXCV wrote:
May 17, 2022
flipz wrote:
May 17, 2022
I don't think this is a smart move:

- It will encourage more renters versus owners. I think a mix of mostly owners is necessary to stabilize neighborhoods. From my observation condos don't sell well. 
- It'll discourage families moving in due to smaller dwellings that are available.
- I think it will discourage smaller developers since they rely on house sales to tackle the next project. 
Encouraging renters versus owners is a good thing imo because: 
1) Tenants have almost no rights compared with homeowners, landlords can do whatever the hell they want. 
2) I dislike having homeowners as neighbors, they're often stuck up and say things like the neighborhood would be more stable without people like me. 
1. If you have more renters, then you will have more people with "almost no rights compared to homeowners". You want people that put their money into improving the neighborhoods, not landlords that may or may not be local. 
2. You thinking that someone is stuck up is nothing to build policy around. 

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PostMay 17, 2022#27

Laife Fulk wrote:
May 17, 2022
Also, is there any exception for properties that were previously condemned or uninhabited for years? (I read through it, but didn't see anything other than areas of the city being exempt) Cause if someone wants to save a building that's been empty for 10 years, that's not the same as someone who bought a 4 unit, is kicking out long term tenants, and then converting it to a two unit.
I believe buildings that are structurally condemned are intended to fall under Section 3 on exemptions. But not necessarily vacant ones in good shape that are owned by jabronis just sitting on them until someone shoots a money cannon at them.  And as you stated, the ordinance does not apply to Weak Market housing strength block groups as determined by the CDA's Market Value Analysis. Another exemption is if at least half of the reduced units are made available at 60% AMI.  

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PostMay 17, 2022#28

One of the nice things about a neighborhood like St. Louis hills is that there are actually a fair number of apartments, with a couple blocks of four families as well as some two families scattered throughout the neighborhood. Whereas most of the houses are priced so high as to be unaffordable for working class people, most of the apartments are still relatively affordable for single income households.

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PostMay 17, 2022#29

dweebe wrote:
May 17, 2022
So let me get this right:
-4>2 and 2>1 conversions are bad?
-Garcia (and similar developers) are bad?
-bigger apartment buildings are bad?
Wow.
Woah, a lot of jumps you’re taking there.
How about-
Two and four families are a better/gentler way of baking density and affordability into historic neighborhoods than towers. And I would fully support going the other way and allowing ADUs in high-priced areas.
Garcia may be chasing profit margins with conversions that the market supports. I tend to operate on motivations other than just profit.

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PostMay 19, 2022#30

Plan to punish renovators for reducing units would drive off needed investment

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... user-share

Underlying the legislation is the notion of confronting gentrification — that is, the phenomenon of investment and renovation flooding into previously distressed neighborhoods to the point that it becomes prohibitively expensive for the current residents to continue living there. There are genuine issues of concern with gentrification, but no one should lose sight of the fact that investment in a neighborhood is, on balance, a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with setting some parameters, but if the parameters risk driving away investment — as common sense suggests this one would — then it helps no one.

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PostMay 19, 2022#31

I don't get it. How is discouraging developers from converting occupied apartment units hurting revitalization? Like, if anything this encourages them to redevelop actually vacant houses. 

On my parents' block in Fox Park, the conversion of a two family flat happened after the neighborhood had stabilized and property prices had gone up quite a bit. So where two families used to live now one small family does. To do this they kicked out longtime tenants that had contributed to the neighborhood's stabilization, including an Eritrean cab driver and his family who had lived in the two family flat for 10+ years. 

I really don't think that's the type of development (removing units from already up and coming areas) that we're trying to encourage to reverse St. Louis' population decline. 

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PostJul 20, 2022#32

I’m late to this party, and clearly more exciting political news has taken over, but I’ve been thinking about this some more and wanted to share my thoughts. Overall, I think it is a well-intentioned proposal but likely to cause more harm than good. I think it will create some disincentives that will outweigh its potential benefits. I think the proposal may wind up driving up the prices for single-family homes and conversions in desirable city neighborhoods without providing as much market-rate affordable housing as alternatives. As a current owner of a single-family home in an in-demand neighborhood, I may personally benefit from higher prices if the proposal leads to fewer single-family home conversions and increased demand for the existing single-families, but I think it will be a net loss for the neighborhood and city overall.
 
One group that I think could be impacted by this is families with young children. I don’t have any kids (and I suspect people with school-age children are underrepresented on this forum—would be interested if any one has demographics on forum participants vs the city at-large vs the region overall), but I know several families with kids who live in homes that were converted from duplexes to single family homes. The smaller square footage of older homes is less appealing to them.  This is already a demographic the city struggles to retain, and, in my social circles at least, when they stay in the city they often choose Tower Grove East/Tower Grove South/Shaw/FPSE/Botanical Heights areas based on local schools. At the margins, making city properties they might choose more expensive will result in some buying in the suburbs, where the housing stock in general is already more favorable, school districts have better metrics, etc. Probably not a huge number overall, but given how hard it is for the city to retain these families already, I think any disincentives to keeping them should be avoided.
 
The other structural problem I see with trying to freeze the old stock in its current form is if remote work is a long-standing trend. If so, space for a home office will be increasingly desirable. Conversions offer a way to fit more living space in an existing building, including office space for those who need it. Again, plenty of properties in the suburbs and greenfields for people to move to if they want the extra square footage, and I think that if the market will support them moving to the city instead, we should make it easy for them to do so. There is already some evidence from NBER that increased remote work was a major contributing factor to the rise in housing prices, and this proposal would be expected to drive up the prices more.

I appreciate the focus of more affordable housing but think there are better ways to fund it. One issue with the way the proposal is structured is that if the proposal stops conversions, it keeps an additional unit on the market at the cost of the disincentives above. If developers think the $10,000 fee  is worth it, an additional $10,000 goes to the affordable housing fund, which probably covers about a years worth of rent for the typical subsidized housing unit for a single family--doesn't seem like that much to me. A modest broad-based property tax would generate more money from a wider and more fair base, with predictable receipts rather than dependent on whether developers bite the bullet on conversions or not, and without the negative externalities above. Maybe it could even be progressively structured with brackets? Not sure if city/state law allows for that.

From the supply side, encourage denser development/more units being provided by revising zoning codes for density, streamlining the review process so that current residents cannot quash new apartment buildings being built, and relaxing historic infill guidelines in neighborhoods under significant price pressure and strict guidelines regarding historic examples and precise forms/sizes (Lafayette Square, Soulard, Shaw), maybe tied to meeting certain density metrics, affordability metrics, etc. My real pipe-dream is to re-legalize SROs to provide a housing option in between shelters or city-provided housing and market-rate studios, but I know that is a political non-starter!

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PostJul 20, 2022#33

^All that text and barely a mention of tenants, who are the most effected by SFH conversions. What I don't get is how it's considered an easier solution to increase housing supply by liberalizing our 1940s zoning code to allow for more housing than to limit the destruction of rental units. 

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PostJul 20, 2022#34

You mentioned families with small children. Hi that’s me and to be honest we have a soon to be 4 bedroom that’s under 3k sqft. I have found that to be the perfect amount of space before it’s to much and yes that also includes a small office room that is used when either my wife or I work from home which is at least 1 of us everyday.

I’d say what greatly discourages me about the city is not so much the housing stock, because I felt there was plenty to choose from I just kept getting outbid on them early last year, but rather the funding to education. My understanding, and I could be wrong as I’m still learning, is that here part of the property taxes goes to funding SLPS. So rather than housing stock being discouraging I am discouraged by situations such as OPUS at Skinker and Delmar, optimist building, and other recent denials of projects that would bring greater property value to properties that are currently not contributing or severely under contributing.

I have yet to meet another family in the City of St. Louis with current young children that doesn’t either 1: move to county or move away completely or 2: do education in a manner other than sending to SLPS. Something like charter schools, magnet schools, private schools or home school is the norm I have found. Not bashing on those options it would just be nice if the public education here was funded well like the county.

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PostJul 20, 2022#35

rbeedee wrote:
Jul 20, 2022
I’m late to this party, and clearly more exciting political news has taken over, but I’ve been thinking about this some more and wanted to share my thoughts. Overall, I think it is a well-intentioned proposal but likely to cause more harm than good. I think it will create some disincentives that will outweigh its potential benefits. I think the proposal may wind up driving up the prices for single-family homes and conversions in desirable city neighborhoods without providing as much market-rate affordable housing as alternatives. As a current owner of a single-family home in an in-demand neighborhood, I may personally benefit from higher prices if the proposal leads to fewer single-family home conversions and increased demand for the existing single-families, but I think it will be a net loss for the neighborhood and city overall.
 
One group that I think could be impacted by this is families with young children. I don’t have any kids (and I suspect people with school-age children are underrepresented on this forum—would be interested if any one has demographics on forum participants vs the city at-large vs the region overall), but I know several families with kids who live in homes that were converted from duplexes to single family homes. The smaller square footage of older homes is less appealing to them.  This is already a demographic the city struggles to retain, and, in my social circles at least, when they stay in the city they often choose Tower Grove East/Tower Grove South/Shaw/FPSE/Botanical Heights areas based on local schools. At the margins, making city properties they might choose more expensive will result in some buying in the suburbs, where the housing stock in general is already more favorable, school districts have better metrics, etc. Probably not a huge number overall, but given how hard it is for the city to retain these families already, I think any disincentives to keeping them should be avoided.
 
The other structural problem I see with trying to freeze the old stock in its current form is if remote work is a long-standing trend. If so, space for a home office will be increasingly desirable. Conversions offer a way to fit more living space in an existing building, including office space for those who need it. Again, plenty of properties in the suburbs and greenfields for people to move to if they want the extra square footage, and I think that if the market will support them moving to the city instead, we should make it easy for them to do so. There is already some evidence from NBER that increased remote work was a major contributing factor to the rise in housing prices, and this proposal would be expected to drive up the prices more.

I appreciate the focus of more affordable housing but think there are better ways to fund it. One issue with the way the proposal is structured is that if the proposal stops conversions, it keeps an additional unit on the market at the cost of the disincentives above. If developers think the $10,000 fee  is worth it, an additional $10,000 goes to the affordable housing fund, which probably covers about a years worth of rent for the typical subsidized housing unit for a single family--doesn't seem like that much to me. A modest broad-based property tax would generate more money from a wider and more fair base, with predictable receipts rather than dependent on whether developers bite the bullet on conversions or not, and without the negative externalities above. Maybe it could even be progressively structured with brackets? Not sure if city/state law allows for that.

From the supply side, encourage denser development/more units being provided by revising zoning codes for density, streamlining the review process so that current residents cannot quash new apartment buildings being built, and relaxing historic infill guidelines in neighborhoods under significant price pressure and strict guidelines regarding historic examples and precise forms/sizes (Lafayette Square, Soulard, Shaw), maybe tied to meeting certain density metrics, affordability metrics, etc. My real pipe-dream is to re-legalize SROs to provide a housing option in between shelters or city-provided housing and market-rate studios, but I know that is a political non-starter!
You talk about things like families that move into the city and want a larger home, but what about Low-income families that live in these duplexes. It's a misjudgment to act like people that live in duplexes are young people in their 20s when I think a big chunk of people that live in duplexes are families that can't afford a house but don't want to live in an apartment building. Not everyone even has a cushy office job that requires remote work anyway, what about mechanics, service workers, etc. This argument seems to prioritize getting rich white people living in the city as opposed to retaining the large working-class family population Saint Louis already has. 

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PostJul 20, 2022#36

LArchitecture wrote:
Jul 20, 2022
You mentioned families with small children. Hi that’s me and to be honest we have a soon to be 4 bedroom that’s under 3k sqft. I have found that to be the perfect amount of space before it’s to much and yes that also includes a small office room that is used when either my wife or I work from home which is at least 1 of us everyday.

I’d say what greatly discourages me about the city is not so much the housing stock, because I felt there was plenty to choose from I just kept getting outbid on them early last year, but rather the funding to education. My understanding, and I could be wrong as I’m still learning, is that here part of the property taxes goes to funding SLPS. So rather than housing stock being discouraging I am discouraged by situations such as OPUS at Skinker and Delmar, optimist building, and other recent denials of projects that would bring greater property value to properties that are currently not contributing or severely under contributing.

I have yet to meet another family in the City of St. Louis with current young children that doesn’t either 1: move to county or move away completely or 2: do education in a manner other than sending to SLPS. Something like charter schools, magnet schools, private schools or home school is the norm I have found. Not bashing on those options it would just be nice if the public education here was funded well like the county.
I've heard the argument that SLPS are under-funded compared to other districts in the area. I know I've seen numbers before, but how much lower is funding per student in SLPS versus districts in the county, STC county? Are there other metrics that people look at? As a city resident and parent, you're correct. I'm hoping that my kids get into the magnet schools in the city (fingers crossed). I feel like the amount I pay in property taxes isn't low, but I likely don't have as global of a perspective.

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PostJul 20, 2022#37

^ SLPS per student funding is fairly high compared to rest of area districts but that's not the whole story-   SLPS has to educated everyone, in the county there is a special school district.  Students in the county are generally well off or better off and require less assistance from the school

So $16,000 per student in SLPS isn't the same as $16,000 as Clayton or Ladue

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PostJul 20, 2022#38

SLPS has to spend a large chunk of the per pupil number on maintenance of aging buildings, security, transportation, etc. that is much less of a burden on many suburban districts, so the topline number does not tell the whole story. 

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PostJul 21, 2022#39

Ebsy wrote:
Jul 20, 2022
SLPS has to spend a large chunk of the per pupil number on maintenance of aging buildings, security, transportation, etc. that is much less of a burden on many suburban districts, so the topline number does not tell the whole story. 
Rockwood and SLPS both have about 19.500 students. SLPS has about 65 school buildings, Rockwood has 31.  SLPS has 12 high schools, Rockwood has 4.

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PostJul 21, 2022#40

TalkinDev wrote:
Jul 21, 2022
Ebsy wrote:
Jul 20, 2022
SLPS has to spend a large chunk of the per pupil number on maintenance of aging buildings, security, transportation, etc. that is much less of a burden on many suburban districts, so the topline number does not tell the whole story. 
Rockwood and SLPS both have about 19.500 students. SLPS has about 65 school buildings, Rockwood has 31.  SLPS has 12 high schools, Rockwood has 4.
this doesnt mean anything, it may mean something but without knowing size of buildings it doesnt mean anything.   Rockwood being suburban i bet they have sprawling HS campuses vs a urban HS that takes up maybe a half a city block. 

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PostJul 23, 2022#41

downtown2007 wrote:
May 19, 2022
Plan to punish renovators for reducing units would drive off needed investment

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... user-share

Underlying the legislation is the notion of confronting gentrification — that is, the phenomenon of investment and renovation flooding into previously distressed neighborhoods to the point that it becomes prohibitively expensive for the current residents to continue living there. There are genuine issues of concern with gentrification, but no one should lose sight of the fact that investment in a neighborhood is, on balance, a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with setting some parameters, but if the parameters risk driving away investment — as common sense suggests this one would — then it helps no one.
The cost will be pushed onto the end buyer.  Further exacerbating the problems of gentrification not helping. 

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PostJul 23, 2022#42

STLAPTS wrote:
Jul 23, 2022
downtown2007 wrote:
May 19, 2022
Plan to punish renovators for reducing units would drive off needed investment

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... user-share

Underlying the legislation is the notion of confronting gentrification — that is, the phenomenon of investment and renovation flooding into previously distressed neighborhoods to the point that it becomes prohibitively expensive for the current residents to continue living there. There are genuine issues of concern with gentrification, but no one should lose sight of the fact that investment in a neighborhood is, on balance, a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with setting some parameters, but if the parameters risk driving away investment — as common sense suggests this one would — then it helps no one.
The cost will be pushed onto the end buyer.  Further exacerbating the problems of gentrification not helping. 
What about the apartment buildings that are preserved as they are because of the change in incentives, with tenants staying in their homes and thus not going up for sale?

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PostJul 23, 2022#43

PeterXCV wrote:
Jul 23, 2022
STLAPTS wrote:
Jul 23, 2022
downtown2007 wrote:
May 19, 2022
Plan to punish renovators for reducing units would drive off needed investment

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... user-share

Underlying the legislation is the notion of confronting gentrification — that is, the phenomenon of investment and renovation flooding into previously distressed neighborhoods to the point that it becomes prohibitively expensive for the current residents to continue living there. There are genuine issues of concern with gentrification, but no one should lose sight of the fact that investment in a neighborhood is, on balance, a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with setting some parameters, but if the parameters risk driving away investment — as common sense suggests this one would — then it helps no one.
The cost will be pushed onto the end buyer.  Further exacerbating the problems of gentrification not helping. 
What about the apartment buildings that are preserved as they are because of the change in incentives, with tenants staying in their homes and thus not going up for sale?

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