Metrolink Blue Shrewsbury Line

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3262006-09-22T22:14+00:00

SMSPlanstu wrote:I praise Metro and the Southside line and hope that CWE63108 may come to understand all the complexities of effective government, citizen involvement, and public-private relationships.

This was an amazing web of constraints, organizational overlap, and interactions that took place to make the Shrewberry line more than feasible but built. Planning is long run and the supply of the transportation route needs to create its own demand for urban development along with citizens clamoring for urban design along with the governmental process allowing for these citizen concerns to be heard and their representatives respond.

I dont praise Metro - the system is extremely hard to use and was extremely expensive.

I dont see the reason to praise someone for delivering such a crummy product. Local goverment too; there's enough blame here to go around.

700 million (LOCAL) tax dollars later - we're sitting a system that now needs a tax increase to support it and is far less useful than it could and should be.

Again. Why defend this?

Expat · PostSep 22, 2006#3272006-09-22T22:20+00:00

cwe63108 wrote: Metro in DC, NYC's subway, the Tube, and Paris'

And how does Metro compare to those? In terms of usability? In terms of thoughtfulness? I realize the system is much much smaller, but attention to detail is key to running a good transit system.

Smart Cards

Security oriented infrastructure (visibility oriented infrastructure)

Timers

Details.

Since I am a daily DC Metro user, I can give my opinion. It took many years for DC Metro to become what it is today. And it has taken many years for development and infrastructure get up to speed around the stations. It is a work in progress. Rome wasn't built in a day. I don't understand your impatience. For instance, I can remember when the Metro Orangle Line opened in Arlington, VA. For the most part, you came out of the station and found bungalows, auto oriented shopping centers, difficult streets to cross, etc. Now those same stations are surrounded by transit friendly development, good sidewalks. It took twenty years! Why would you expect the Shrewsbury Line to be surrounded by perfect, transit friendly, utopia on opening day? I am sorry, you are dead wrong anyway. This line is going to some great areas with easy grid. The other stations will adapt in time.

At first I thought you were a concerned citizen with high (maybe unreasonable) expectations. I am starting to think you are an anti-transit activist just looking for excuses to bash Metro.

PostSep 22, 2006#3282006-09-22T22:27+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:

I dont praise Metro - the system is extremely hard to use and was extremely expensive.

I dont see the reason to praise someone for delivering such a crummy product. Local goverment too; there's enough blame here to go around.

700 million (LOCAL) tax dollars later - we're sitting a system that now needs a tax increase to support it and is far less useful than it could and should be.

Again. Why defend this?

Why so cross? Is it because you are an anti-transit activist? If so, the Shrewsbury Line must really make you angry. Because it has turned out really good and has tremendous potential. It is going to convince many people that light-rail is a good thing. A scary notion for an anti-transit activist.

doug · PostSep 22, 2006#3292006-09-22T22:35+00:00

There is no need for smart cards!!!!!!

We need more bus routes and expansion not worthless technology!

How is purchasing tickets online or at a station hard???

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3302006-09-22T22:38+00:00

Expat wrote:
cwe63108 wrote:

I dont praise Metro - the system is extremely hard to use and was extremely expensive.

I dont see the reason to praise someone for delivering such a crummy product. Local goverment too; there's enough blame here to go around.

700 million (LOCAL) tax dollars later - we're sitting a system that now needs a tax increase to support it and is far less useful than it could and should be.

Again. Why defend this?

Why so cross? Is it because you are an anti-transit activist? If so, the Shrewsbury Line must really make you angry. Because it has turned out really good and has tremendous potential. It is going to convince many people that light-rail is a good thing. A scary notion for an anti-transit activist.

I'm not an anti-transit activist. I love transit. I ride it whenever it's available and have been in some cities where it has been my alternative to the car.

NOT in St. Louis.

In St. Louis, I eagerly anticipated the completion of this project. I was excited because for the first time I could actually see myself riding the Metro for everyday needs - like groceries and places to eat, to entertaiment and to a "city" like place (Clayton downtown).

Imagine my sadness when actually riding the system and trying to do these things.... except for Clayton, the rest of the system is stimied by poor design.

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3312006-09-22T22:41+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:1. the ticketing system - Smart Cards are infinitely better..

Just so you know Metro is developing a smartcard system. At least look into current events before you complain. Just like everything else it will take TIME to implement this.

http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/000792.php

cwe63108 wrote:2. The physical infrastructure isnt connected to anything else easily. Unless you want to ride the bus to places like Walmart or have the strength to walk half a mile to go fifty feet - the system is much harder to use than it could and should be..

At least 10 other posters have said this but I'll repeat it. It will take TIME for metro to mature into a world class system. Give metro 10 years to marinate, and I think you'll be singing a different tune. We had to start somewhere. Anyways you seem to be in the extreme minority, being someone displeased with the new Metro line. So I suscpect they(Metro) are doing a better job than you want to give them credit for.

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3322006-09-22T22:42+00:00

Doug wrote:There is no need for smart cards!!!!!!

We need more bus routes and expansion not worthless technology!

How is purchasing tickets online or at a station hard???

Have you used a Smart Card system before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card

Scroll down a bit and see everyone who's implemented this... here's a sampling....

Atlanta, Beijing, Bogota, Chicago, Dublin, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Krakow, London, Moscow, NYC, Paris, Singapore, Tokyo, Taipei, Toronto, Washington DC.

It's not "worthless" - Metro gets to know exactly who is taking the system; from what point TO what point, for what period of time.

I would have thought Metro smart enough to want this...like I said.

Details.

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3332006-09-22T22:43+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:
Doug wrote:There is no need for smart cards!!!!!!

We need more bus routes and expansion not worthless technology!

How is purchasing tickets online or at a station hard???

Have you used a Smart Card system before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card

Scroll down a bit and see everyone who's implemented this... here's a sampling....

Atlanta, Beijing, Bogota, Chicago, Dublin, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Krakow, London, Moscow, NYC, Paris, Singapore, Tokyo, Taipei, Toronto, Washington DC.

It's not "worthless" - Metro gets to know exactly who is taking the system; from what point TO what point, for what period of time.

I would have thought Metro smart enough to want this...like I said.

Details.

Metro is developing smart cards!

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3342006-09-22T22:45+00:00

Why did they install the current (bad) technologies onto the new line?

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3352006-09-22T22:46+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:Why did they install the current (bad) technologies onto the new line?

Go to the link and listen to the video, it is going to take TIME. You my friend are just extremely impatient.

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3362006-09-22T22:46+00:00

Urban Elitist wrote: Anyways you seem to be in the extreme minority, being someone displeased with the new Metro line. So I suscpect they(Metro) are doing a better job than you want to give them credit for.

Have you ridden the system and actually tried to use it?

PostSep 22, 2006#3372006-09-22T22:48+00:00

Urban Elitist wrote:
cwe63108 wrote:Why did they install the current (bad) technologies onto the new line?
Go to the link and listen to the video, it is going to take TIME. You my friend are just extremely impatient.

I am impatient. But this is more about BAD solutions being implemented and then defended by those like Doug.

Why defend something that frankly isnt worth defending?

I've seen the video. The guy says that it's "new" - which I immediately noticed as a telltale sign that he doesnt know what the f he's talking about.

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3382006-09-22T22:49+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:
Urban Elitist wrote: Anyways you seem to be in the extreme minority, being someone displeased with the new Metro line. So I suscpect they(Metro) are doing a better job than you want to give them credit for.

Have you ridden the system and actually tried to use it?

Yes I have ridden the system and it is a vast improvement over what we have that will comenitue to evlolve. Is it perfect now? No, but I didn't expect it to be off of the bat. $700 mil for a regional transit system is not that much money. You make it out as if we spense $2 billion on this thing.

PostSep 22, 2006#3392006-09-22T22:50+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:
Urban Elitist wrote:
cwe63108 wrote:Why did they install the current (bad) technologies onto the new line?
Go to the link and listen to the video, it is going to take TIME. You my friend are just extremely impatient.

I am impatient. But this is more about BAD solutions being implemented and then defended by those like Doug.

Why defend something that frankly isnt worth defending?

I've seen the video. The guy says that it's "new" - which I immediately noticed as a telltale sign that he doesnt know what the f he's talking about.

I'm not defending bad solutions, I'm being realistic and saying it will take 10 years for this line to mature. Not 10 days.

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3402006-09-22T22:52+00:00

Urban Elitist wrote:
cwe63108 wrote:
Urban Elitist wrote: Anyways you seem to be in the extreme minority, being someone displeased with the new Metro line. So I suscpect they(Metro) are doing a better job than you want to give them credit for.

Have you ridden the system and actually tried to use it?
Yes I have ridden the system and it is a vast improvement over what we have that will comenitue to evlolve. Is it perfect now? No, but I didn't expect it to be off of the bat. $700 mil for a regional transit system is not that much money. You make it out as if we spense $2 billion on this thing.

Look - I'm a pragmatic person. If the 700 million was all Federal money. fine. Piss it away.

The problem is that the 700 million is all LOCAL money. It could have been used for much better/different things.

For example. I now think it would have been cheaper and in fact probably better if we just stopped building at about the Brentwood I64 stop. It would have cost a lot less and have been just as functional.

The "TOD" site at Sunnen is a DEAD PROJECT. Maplewood doesnt even have an RFP out on it...it's DEAD.

So - what would the rest of the money have been better spent on? Name your pet project.

Trolleys, police, education...etc.

PostSep 22, 2006#3412006-09-22T22:54+00:00

Urban Elitist wrote:I'm not defending bad solutions, I'm being realistic and saying it will take 10 years for this line to mature. Not 10 days.

I never said you were Urban!

Doug, and others, have defended the system. Your point of patientce is a different one.

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3422006-09-22T22:56+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:
Urban Elitist wrote:
cwe63108 wrote:

Have you ridden the system and actually tried to use it?
Yes I have ridden the system and it is a vast improvement over what we have that will comenitue to evlolve. Is it perfect now? No, but I didn't expect it to be off of the bat. $700 mil for a regional transit system is not that much money. You make it out as if we spense $2 billion on this thing.

Look - I'm a pragmatic person. If the 700 million was all Federal money. fine. Piss it away.

The problem is that the 700 million is all LOCAL money. It could have been used for much better/different things.

For example. I now think it would have been cheaper and in fact probably better if we just stopped building at about the Brentwood I64 stop. It would have cost a lot less and have been just as functional.

The "TOD" site at Sunnen is a DEAD PROJECT. Maplewood doesnt even have an RFP out on it...it's DEAD.

So - what would the rest of the money have been better spent on? Name your pet project.

Trolleys, police, education...etc.

Hindsight is 20/20. Also Metro did years of studies to determine where to build, and I trust people like southslider & busdad(whose posts are always filled with logical FACTS and never rants) working for metro, far more than your baseless rants. I haven't seen you post any hard numbers to support anything you've said, yet southslider & busdad consatntly do...

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3432006-09-22T22:59+00:00

What hard numbers can I bring to the notion that things are hard to use? Or ill connected? Or poorly designed?

When I point out that there arent any timers?

Or that security/visibility isnt in the design?

Or that it's hard to walk a huge distance?

What numbers can I show for that?

Busdad IS a great source of info. I dont know if his level of professional competence is the exception or the rule.

From my view as a tax payer and potential rider of MetroLink; he seems the all to uncommon exception.

doug · PostSep 22, 2006#3442006-09-22T23:01+00:00

CWE STFU.

Everyone needs to remember that this Metro Line is replacing the proposed and cancelled 170 SOUTHERN EXPANSION.

We are looking at MASS TRANSIT replacing HIGHWAY EXPANSION.

Thats worth drinking a beer to.

TOD does not appear overnight CWE.

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3452006-09-22T23:04+00:00

Doug wrote:TOD does not appear overnight CWE.

Of course not. But a RFP would be nice...

urban elitist · PostSep 22, 2006#3462006-09-22T23:05+00:00

cwe63108 wrote:What hard numbers can I bring to the notion that things are hard to use? Or ill connected? Or poorly designed?

When I point out that there arent any timers?

Or that security/visibility isnt in the design?

Or that it's hard to walk a huge distance?

What numbers can I show for that?

Busdad IS a great source of info. I dont know if his level of professional competence is the exception or the rule.

From my view as a tax payer and potential rider of MetroLink; he seems the all to uncommon exception.

What are the rates of crimes at metro link stations? Do these numbers warrant an increase police prescence?

What is the average walking distance to common destinations compared to the distance that you would have to walk if you parked? How much money would it have costed to move these stations closer to those destinations? Would moving the stations have justified this increased cost?

What are the CURRENT metro plans? Do you even know whether or not timers are in the planning stages? You certiantly did not know about smartcards being in planning.

When you can answer these questions, then maybe you rants will be more well received, until then you just look like a whinny taxpayer who insists on comparing STL metro to mass transit systems in world class cities.

doug · PostSep 22, 2006#3472006-09-22T23:10+00:00

He also said we should piss away Federal Tax Dollars, hes an idiot.

The Federal Government really does not fund much of anything locally so what Federal Tax Dollars we recieved better be well spent.

Besides I am sure people in the other 49 states would love to hear we are wasting their money.

The extension is a success and one will see TOD in 10 - 30 years.

You are also forgetting the affluent areas which it serves. If these people render their support for MetroLink then that would be good for future expansions.

cwe63108 · PostSep 22, 2006#3482006-09-22T23:14+00:00

You certiantly did not know about smartcards being in planning.

I've seen that video before. Like I said. The moment the guy said "new" it really tipped me off that what I'm looking at is is third rate rail system...

You are also forgetting the affluent areas which it serves. If these people render their support for MetroLink then that would be good for future expansions.

Yes...not like when the system is actually useful...that wont garner any support at all.

But - maybe you guys are right. Maybe 20 years from now everything will look great.

PostSep 22, 2006#3492006-09-22T23:17+00:00

urban-elitist -

Your questions are very good ones. I would love to see the numbers myself, especially regarding crime.

In terms of security. The next time you see a Wehlan security gaurd not on the MetroLink platform, ask him or her what the situation on the MetroLink is.

The numbers/incidents are recorded by local police departments. If Metro was a serious transit system and had its own transit police force (something that they're working on apparently, although they havent gotten a charter so far as I know); then these questions would be much eaiser to answer.

doug · PostSep 22, 2006#3502006-09-22T23:17+00:00

How is the system not useful?

Please tell me how 140,000k Bi-State riders must be wasting their time and not getting to where they need to go????

Where should this expansion have gone Mr. Planner?

Metrolink Blue Shrewsbury Line

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