Metro's MovingTransitForward.Org

matguy70 · PostJan 20, 2010#262010-01-20T04:19+00:00

OK, Let's not get too crazy there Southslider.

STL is very much ahead in mass transit in this country yet today.
The list of cities you posted are not all "modern" streetcar cities at all... not sure where you got that list.

There is an acurate list:
Current and future (under construction) light-rail systems
Austin, Texas – Capital MetroRail (scheduled opening currently delayed)
Baltimore, Maryland – Baltimore Light Rail
Boston, Massachusetts – MBTA Green Line and Ashmont–Mattapan High Speed Line
Buffalo, New York – Buffalo Metro Rail
Camden, New Jersey to Trenton, New Jersey – River Line
Charlotte, North Carolina – Lynx Light Rail
Cleveland, Ohio – RTA Blue and Green Lines
Dallas, Texas – Dallas Area Rapid Transit Light Rail
Denver, Colorado – TheRide
Houston, Texas – METRO Light Rail
Hudson County, New Jersey – Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
Los Angeles, California – LACMTA Blue Line, Green Line, Gold Line, Expo Line (Expo Line projected to open in 2010)
Minneapolis, Minnesota – Hiawatha Line
New Orleans, Louisiana – New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA)
Newark, New Jersey – Newark Light Rail
Norfolk, Virginia – Tide Light Rail (scheduled opening in 2010)
Oceanside, California – SPRINTER
Phoenix, Arizona – Valley Metro Rail
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania – SEPTA Subway-Surface Trolley Lines and Suburban Trolley Lines
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania – Pittsburgh Light Rail ("The T")
Portland, Oregon – MAX Light Rail, Portland Streetcar
Sacramento, California – Sacramento Regional Transit District Blue and Gold Lines
St. Louis, Missouri – St. Louis MetroLink
Salt Lake City, Utah – UTA TRAX
San Diego, California – San Diego Trolley
San Francisco, California – Muni Metro
San Jose, California – Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority
Seattle, Washington – Sound Transit Central Link, South Lake Union Streetcar
Tacoma, Washington – Sound Transit Tacoma Link
Washington, D.C. – Anacostia Streetcar (projected to open in 2012)

http://www.lightrailnow.org/success1.htm

The largest in USA for track length are:
(St. Louis is #6)
San Fran
Los Angel
Philly
San Diego
Portland
St. Louis

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... _ridership

The most rode systems:
(STL is 9th in USA)
BOSTON
SAN FRAN
LOS ANGEL
PORTLAND
PHILLY
SAN DIEGO
DALLAS
DENVER
and ST. LOUIS 9

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... _ridership

Not too mention STL will add the Delmar Loop Trolley Line soon.
and don't forget - METRO has added the Metro East Line in the late 90's, and the new Blue Line (Shrewsbury) just two years ago.
METRO also runs completely right-away --- unlike any other light rail system in North America - running more like heavy rail than Light Rail. All stations are also flush level and raised - no climbing into train cars - no street running systems.

jennifer · PostFeb 09, 2010#272010-02-09T22:00+00:00

Sorry I'm late to the party on this discussion, but I wanted to answer Brody's question about why the lack of non-highway BRT routes. The answer is that Metro very much wants to build BRT on Grand, which is Metro's busiest bus corridor currently. That BRT line would then be used as a model for building other on-street, in-city BRT. The Moving Transit Forward plan, if adopted by Metro's Board this Friday, is the preliminary plan for the region but is intended to be a living document, subject to updates at least every five years. As funding situations change and population centers shift, the plan would have to be updated. But the simple answer is that Grand BRT would be a prototype and, we would hope, would serve as such an excellent model that it would prompt/allow for more similar BRT routes.

moorlander · PostFeb 10, 2010#282010-02-10T15:53+00:00

^ Jennifer,
LOVE you input on the forum. You are 2010's version of bus dad. Keep it up.

goat314 · PostFeb 15, 2010#292010-02-15T10:33+00:00

I downloaded the final board presentation and I found it very interesting. It had a lot of good data and the maps were extremely informative.
The only thing that didn't make sense to me is the proposed Westport line.
On the last referendum they told County voters that this would be the priority line, but looking at the charts I have come to the conclusion that this line is a major FAIL!
If E-W Gateway chooses Westport as the next line my notions that Metro has become heavily politicized will be vindicated.
This project will not get federal funding when put up against true urban light rail projects. St. Louis can no longer play politics with Metrolink. I don't know if any of you have heard but the FTA has new rules regarding transit funding. In order for a project to be competitive it must exhibit.
* Economic development
* Mobility improvements
* Environmental benefits
* Operating efficiencies
* Cost effectiveness
* Land use

Westport may have environmental and mobility improvements but compared to the rest of the proposed lines it has nothing. The communities along the line would have to make a commitment to become more walkable, livable communities in order for this to happen. That would include actually having sidewalks, increasing density, trying to get people out of their automobiles etc. and personally I dont think the people in Creve Coeur, Ladue, and Maryland Heights are really there yet. Maybe Overland and Olivette, but I can already see the NIMBY signs along Lindbergh boulevard.

Bottom Line = N-S Line or BUST!

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 15, 2010#302010-02-15T16:04+00:00

I certainly understand your sentiment, but don't be surprised if a Westport line is considered to produce "economic development" by increasing the number of jobs in the Westport area. Also, I believe that most, if not all of the right-of-way is accessible - likely cheaper than in the city - so it's cost effective. I don't know the specifics of the new funding, but "land use" could even work because MetroLink would encourage more dense development.

goat314 · PostFeb 15, 2010#312010-02-15T17:50+00:00

^ A Westport line would create a decent amount of economic development, but I'm suspect a few things.
1)This line is trying to reposition Clayton as the center of the region
2)Zoning is not conducive to transit usage
3)Not a lot of transit dependent individuals, so ridership will be low
4)How long will this be a park-and-ride system?
5)Lack of sidewalks in a lot of this area
6)Will not be competitive for federal funds against true urban light rail lines
7)If they build this line, how long before they build in the city? 20-30 years

I'm sorry but I would rather have N-S up in running in 5-10 years than this boondoggle Westport line.

midcoaststl · PostFeb 15, 2010#322010-02-15T18:12+00:00

^agree

I think a westport line would be good down the road but I think the CITY needs to have the network built out. This will end up a place for West Countians to Park and go to Cards Games. How about a N S city like that spurs development on jefferson, and the future Northside development etc?

I am afraid that this will be next and it will be forever until the city actually has a good system.

Wish we still had those street cars ALL OVER THE CITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

goat314 · PostFeb 16, 2010#332010-02-16T07:54+00:00

The County Council and E-W Gateway make the decision on where Metro is going and I'm 90% sure it will be Westport. Does the city even have a say?
here is an interesting debate on the issue: http://www.kmox.com/topic/play_window.p ... Id=4392001

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 16, 2010#342010-02-16T17:35+00:00

Even though many of us believe (know) that mass transit works better as a dense system and not as quasi-commuter rail, the reality is that the City can't afford to do much of anything. Maybe County residents should be altruistic enough to pay 1/2% sales tax for another line in the city, but we can't count on that. At least Westport's a better line than one down the center of I-64!

jennifer · PostFeb 16, 2010#352010-02-16T23:27+00:00

Hey, guys, NOTHING will be built in St. Louis any time in our lifetimes without federal funding. Therefore, I believe there is a very good chance that the best light rail alignment option will get funded.

Not being a planner, and not getting involved in politics, I'm going to keep my opinion to myself as to which corridor I think that is. But are you guys hearing me? We have to compete for federal dollars with these projects. The feds are not going to fund a bum route.

goat314 · PostFeb 17, 2010#362010-02-17T01:30+00:00

Jennifer wrote:Hey, guys, NOTHING will be built in St. Louis any time in our lifetimes without federal funding. Therefore, I believe there is a very good chance that the best light rail alignment option will get funded.

Not being a planner, and not getting involved in politics, I'm going to keep my opinion to myself as to which corridor I think that is. But are you guys hearing me? We have to compete for federal dollars with these projects. The feds are not going to fund a bum route.

Thanks for your responses. I just wanted to ask about Streetcars. Is Metro considering them down the line? The City of St. Louis was built on the streetcar and there are remnants of tracks all over the city. I bet if we dug up some streets we could probably find fully intact lines. Has Metro ever considered modern street car that feeds into the current Metrolink line in the central corridor. Streetcars could run N and S on Grand - Jefferson - Gravois - Kingshighway like the used to 50 years ago, when my grandfather rode them lol.

dredger · PostFeb 17, 2010#372010-02-17T03:39+00:00

I believe the N-S line, at least the northern portion, has one of the worst projected ridership levels of all and would be big hindrance in any federal funding. So I'm having a tough time comprehending how that portion is any more favorable over Westport when the Westport line also has a much higher employment density. Even though it might not be very walkable, a loop bus service timed with train service provides people transit access to a lot of jobs.

What I do agree with the is that street cars are missing from the mix. Talk about some great corridors such as Grand and Washington within the city. These corridors already have development happening and a means to support with institutions. Imagine what could happen on Grand if SLU and Grand Center put some effort into it. Or if downtown STL org pursued a Wash Ave streetcar line going down to the river/casino. They have much more resourcees then Joe Edwards. However, I put that on local leadership rather then METRO. I'm afraid we will be discussing the all or nothing approach with the N-S line for a very long time as opportunity to boost development in some key city neighborhoods loses steam.

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#382010-02-17T04:04+00:00

I'd agree regarding the northern portion of a N/S line in the city. What we don't know is how the Feds will view North STL. It's either not worth funding because of low ridership projections or it's a great opportunity to serve a largely minority, high-unemployment, high development potential area.

goat314 · PostFeb 17, 2010#392010-02-17T04:12+00:00

Dredger wrote:I believe the N-S line, at least the northern portion, has one of the worst projected ridership levels of all and would be big hindrance in any federal funding. So I'm having a tough time comprehending how that portion is any more favorable over Westport when the Westport line also has a much higher employment density. Even though it might not be very walkable, a loop bus service timed with train service provides people transit access to a lot of jobs.

What I do agree with the is that street cars are missing from the mix. Talk about some great corridors such as Grand and Washington within the city. These corridors already have development happening and a means to support with institutions. Imagine what could happen on Grand if SLU and Grand Center put some effort into it. Or if downtown STL org pursued a Wash Ave streetcar line going down to the river/casino. They have much more resourcees then Joe Edwards. However, I put that on local leadership rather then METRO. I'm afraid we will be discussing the all or nothing approach with the N-S line for a very long time as opportunity to boost development in some key city neighborhoods loses steam.

I disagree that the Northside line would have worst ridership than Westport. How many riders would a Westport ride attract? The part of the Northside that you a probably referring to is the Near Northside that McKee is trying to transform, but the neighborhoods along Natural Bridge are actually some of the denser neighborhoods in North St. Louis. Obviously the N-S line would be built in one swoop, because if we just built the Jefferson line there would be a huge uproar regarding race and class. I just feel it would be more beneficial to the region in the long term to build the N-S line before Westport. I'm not a fan of Westport until this part of west county does some serious zoning changes to show that there is actually a commitment to transit. I would like to see a plan similar to Clayton's CBD for Westport before I become a believer. Also a N-S line would definitely be more competitive than Westport for a number of reasons.
1) urban vs suburban
2) transit dependent individuals vs suburban commuters
3) pedestrian scaled environments vs auto-centric zoning
I also think that the N-S has more potential for economic development. I guess will see what E-W gateway chooses.

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#402010-02-17T04:24+00:00

goat314 wrote:I disagree that the Northside line would have worst ridership than Westport.

You can disagree if you want, but reading through the East-West Gateway studies and other information about possible MetroLink lines, it's clear that the North Side line currently has the lowest anticipated ridership numbers. Natural Bridge and other areas have potential, but they're not dense residential corridors and there are basically no commercial or job centers along the route. I think it's a great route because of potential and the need to have a transportation system in the city, but unless the Fed equation includes consideration of economically depressed areas it's hard for me to see how a North-South line gets funding. But then again I could be wrong.

goat314 · PostFeb 17, 2010#412010-02-17T04:40+00:00

Grover wrote:
goat314 wrote:I disagree that the Northside line would have worst ridership than Westport.
You can disagree if you want, but reading through the East-West Gateway studies and other information about possible MetroLink lines, it's clear that the North Side line currently has the lowest anticipated ridership numbers. Natural Bridge and other areas have potential, but they're not dense residential corridors and there are basically no commercial or job centers along the route. I think it's a great route because of potential and the need to have a transportation system in the city, but unless the Fed equation includes consideration of economically depressed areas it's hard for me to see how a North-South line gets funding. But then again I could be wrong.

E-W Gateway is playing politics with Metrolink in my opinion, but besides that I just don't think Westport will be competitive on a federal level against other truly urban light rail extensions. We all know that ridership projections are can often be flawed, but I just don't see more people riding a Westport line than a N-S line (which would be one line, not two like it was proposed earlier. Your argument about residential density is mislead in my opinion, the neighborhoods along Natural Bridge like the Ville, Penrose, O'Fallon Park and Goodfellow are indeed ghetto and dilapidated, but still have a higher density than anything along the Westport line. The N-S line would also serve the largest commercial center in the region......DOWNTOWN! Which will never reach the critical mass we all want it to without more rail.
Also I posted earlier that the FTA has changed its funding criteria and will be considering.
* Economic development
* Mobility improvements
* Environmental benefits
* Operating efficiencies
* Cost effectiveness
* Land use This is the big one to me.

PeterXCV · PostFeb 17, 2010#422010-02-17T12:40+00:00

goat314 wrote:
Grover wrote:
goat314 wrote: E-W Gateway is playing politics with Metrolink in my opinion, but besides that I just don't think Westport will be competitive on a federal level against other truly urban light rail extensions. We all know that ridership projections are can often be flawed, but I just don't see more people riding a Westport line than a N-S line (which would be one line, not two like it was proposed earlier. Your argument about residential density is mislead in my opinion, the neighborhoods along Natural Bridge like the Ville, Penrose, O'Fallon Park and Goodfellow are indeed ghetto and dilapidated, but still have a higher density than anything along the Westport line. The N-S line would also serve the largest commercial center in the region......DOWNTOWN! Which will never reach the critical mass we all want it to without more rail.

I know you think that EW gateway is playing polotics, but the truth is they have to, personally I don't think proposition A would win if Metro told all the St. Louis County voters the first metrolink expansion would be in St. Louis City. But believe me, I live just a block from the proposed Jefferson ave. line and would like to see it built. Also, what do you mean by there would only be only one N-S line? Does this mean the end of the Downtown Loop?

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#432010-02-17T16:19+00:00

^ He's just saying that a N/S line would be one line and not a north line terminating downtown and a south line terminating downtown.

jennifer · PostFeb 17, 2010#442010-02-17T16:25+00:00

You guys are arguing over the head of my experience/comfort level. I'm just a J.D. who works in the Real Estate dept. - I have no formal planning training. What I need to do is get one of the planning guys on here and will try to do that today.

However, regarding North-South, I do know this - the MTF map shows two segments of the North-South alignment; one is the minimum operating segment that would get built (and it goes both north and south of downtown) and then there are further extensions North and South of the MOS that could be added in the future. The initial alignment is both north and south though.

And remember, even though we go by the business name "Metro," we're really the Bi-State Development Agency. One thing we look at is how can transit be used to attract/increase development and connect people with jobs? That's important; and also remember that when the new bridge is completed, the area where it lands will look pretty different.

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#452010-02-17T17:41+00:00

Jennifer wrote:I have no formal planning training.

No worries, neither do 99% of us (me included).

goat314 · PostFeb 17, 2010#462010-02-17T17:54+00:00

Grover wrote:
Jennifer wrote:I have no formal planning training.
No worries, neither do 99% of us (me included).

I'm finishing my bachelors in planning right now and going for my Masters in Urban and Regional Planning this fall.

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#472010-02-17T18:28+00:00

^ That's great.

jennifer · PostFeb 17, 2010#482010-02-17T21:22+00:00

Hey goat, what do you want to be when you grow up? Like, what's your ideal job, with those credentials?

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 17, 2010#492010-02-17T21:40+00:00

(say, "work for Metro", say "work for Metro")

goat314 · PostFeb 17, 2010#502010-02-17T23:03+00:00

Jennifer wrote:Hey goat, what do you want to be when you grow up? Like, what's your ideal job, with those credentials?

Things about Goat314
I'm in my early 20s
I'm in my last semester at Florida State University
I will be pursuing my Masters in Planning next fall or spring
I'm a native St. Louisan that came to Florida on a scholarship
I'm obsessed with SimCity4, Skyscraperpage, and urbanstl.com.
I come from a strong union/community oriented family ( My grandfather was assistant director for AFSCME - Eastern Missouri for many years)
My family thinks I'm crazy, because I want to come back to St. Louis and help with the revitalization.
They want me to move to Tampa with my mom ewwwww.
I don't know if I want to work in community development (ONSL style) or a transportation planner (working with you at Metro).
I guess we will find out in a few years.

Maybe we should start putting faces to the profiles. I always wondered what you guys looked like.

Hey Goat's a black guy

Metro's MovingTransitForward.Org

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