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PostMar 07, 2006#301

stlouiscitizen wrote:Check out the St. Louis Citizens for Responsible Development. They aren't against development, just irresponsible development.


Welcome to the forum, but something tells me your particular group is not going to make many friends on this forum. You might want to do a little more reading in the Urban Living forum.

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PostMar 07, 2006#302

Not Found

The requested document was not found on this server.



Web Server at stlouiscitizens.org


:lol:

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PostMar 07, 2006#303

St. Louis Texan wrote:Why would anyone want to cancel this project? For almost any reason its gonna help revitalize the CWE and more importantly the city.


Revitalize? I remember when the CWE was being revitalized-- in the 80's.



Now it's more than plenty vital at the corner of Euclid and Maryland with bars that bring in tourists from the county who pee in the yard of our 118 year old house that is several generations in the family, and leave beer bottles for me to run the mower over. And parking in front of the house-- forget it. Drunk girls screaming at 2am- plenty of that. I'm pretty tolerant though, I live and let live and understand and respect the relationship between residential and commercial interests. But this attracts crime, it doesn't increase property values, and it sometimes uses up resources that are funded by our property taxes.



Moving another 300 units of people not even a 1/2 block away will only add to the mess. Just think how difficult it is already to drive Euclid, make a left onto Lindell, etc...



So, in my immediate neighborhood, I'd like to not have the congestion, not have our property taxes support the additional strain on the infrastructure (due to TIFF), and I don't believe that this part of the neighborhood is "blighted." If Opus, Lyda, and the City want to fix blighted, they should build this building at the corner of Euclid and Delmar. That would be some true mixing of upper-class and blighted, and push the niceness boundry of the neighborhood farther north.



And, according to the language found in Board Bill 358CS http://stlcin.missouri.org/Document/ald ... /BB358.pdf), I really don't like how Opus is planning to target people who live "an alternative lifestyle." That is just offensive language, the equivalent of, "we think they are abnormal but we'll take their money anyway."



But most of all, I don't think it's right for a corporate interest (that isn't even based in our local economy) to recieve special treatment from city officials, especially when this may break the law and create a bad historic preservation precedent. Yes, St. Louis needs development, but needs to travel down a more responsible path and develop the areas that are impoverished, need infrastructure built, and need to be revitalized. Just think, the parking lot next to the Breadco is pretty crappy and might make a nice revitalization high-rise project too-- just tear down a few hundred year old houses next to it for the parking garage. But it makes more sense to build these "revitalization projects" someplace else where it won't affect continuing to live in our nice houses, our view, the traffic, the added strain on the other infrastructure and will help elevate the standard of living and property values along the less affluent fringes of the neighborhood. That is how you help with revitilization.

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PostMar 07, 2006#304

I don't think bringing in new residents is the equivalent to county people coming in to use the bars. Perhaps with new residents, different types of retail will balance out the overabundance of bars and open up some new amenities. And perhaps with higher densities, more people will opt for public transportation.



I do agree that we need to also focus on some of the more blighted areas as well (and if you look around, this forum clearly shows that). However, I do think that if the CWE, Downtown, and hopefully Grand Center and Gaslight Square can become more and more vibrant (creating a continuous central corridor) then I think the development may have a chance of swelling around it even moreso. The Central West End and Downtown are the most important parts of this process and, as a city, we must work to make our greatest strengths even stronger.


But most of all, I don't think it's right for a corporate interest (that isn't even based in our local economy) to recieve special treatment from city officials,


I don't see how it is a bad thing to have interest from other places. Most successfull cities have vested interests from both local and foreign corporations. And, you'll notice, this law was "broken" by the grand Chase Hotel many decades ago. I think that if we are going to stick with the city, as you and your family have, we should be prepared to face change and not fear it. We have the chance to make a great neighborhood even better. We have the chance to open up new retail markets and jobs. We have the chance to make the CWE the most walkable, urban-friendly environment that is open to many different financial situations. Come on, if we all preferred easy parking, border-line-paranoid safety precautions, round the clock quiet, and solitude to great architecture, people, art, and diversity, we would have all moved to the suburbs by now.

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PostMar 07, 2006#305

I don't disagree with historic district guidelines. I do disagree with height restrictions where they aren't necessary. How will a 28-story building all of a sudden make nearby historic buildings non-historic? If anything, I'm glad this new OPUS project is challenging the status quo. I'm all in favor of a redesigned tower, but there is absolutely no need to make it shorter.

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PostMar 07, 2006#306

^Yeah!! And besides, isn't the history of the CWE one in which high rise appartments are a part of that history? Sure, the homes are historic and should be preserved, but does that cancel out the historic merit of highrises? When was Monclair-On-The-Park built? When was the Park Plaza built? When was the Executive, Lindell Towers, etc. built? Aren't these part of CWE history, too? Would it be appropriate to tear them down? I think these people are grabbing at straws for very selfish reasons. It's time for this neighborhood to move on in the vein it originally started as, one of a mix of mansions and multilevel housing and one that sensible St. Louisans can be proud of.

Downtown is also a historical area, yet new highrises have been built and are planned here. The CWE has far more in common with downtown than Lafayette Square. So really, on what grounds can those opposed to the proposed highrises in the CWE stand on?

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PostMar 07, 2006#307

stlouiscitizen wrote:And, according to the language found in Board Bill 358CS http://stlcin.missouri.org/Document/ald ... /BB358.pdf), I really don't like how Opus is planning to target people who live "an alternative lifestyle." That is just offensive language, the equivalent of, "we think they are abnormal but we'll take their money anyway."


What is offensive about "an alternative lifestyle"?



Of course they will take their money just like any one else's. Like any good business would. In fact, I find it the opposite of offensive. They have no predjudices. If it's offensive to you, that implies that you have some predjudices and I find that more offensive.



Are your objections to the development really about the "type" of people you think it will attract??

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PostMar 07, 2006#308

stlouiscitizen, you are not allow to advertise on this website in your posts. If you read the regulations you will see this.



I disagree with your stance completely, and I am not advertising my site, except in my signature.











If you have a problem with diversity and different lifestyles, then you are living in the wrong Ward. Your Ward is the most diverse in the city. These condos/apartments are going to be for people with money, who are you to say where they recieve their paycheck? This is a market economy, you are not the regulator.





http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=2036

PostMar 07, 2006#309

stlouiscitizen wrote:
St. Louis Texan wrote:Why would anyone want to cancel this project? For almost any reason its gonna help revitalize the CWE and more importantly the city.


Now it's more than plenty vital at the corner of Euclid and Maryland with bars that bring in tourists from the county who pee in the yard of our 118 year old house that is several generations in the family, and leave beer bottles for me to run the mower over. And parking in front of the house-- forget it. Drunk girls screaming at 2am- plenty of that. I'm pretty tolerant though, I live and let live and understand and respect the relationship between residential and commercial interests. But this attracts crime, it doesn't increase property values, and it sometimes uses up resources that are funded by our property taxes.



Moving another 300 units of people not even a 1/2 block away will only add to the mess. Just think how difficult it is already to drive Euclid, make a left onto Lindell, etc...



So, in my immediate neighborhood, I'd like to not have the congestion, not have our property taxes support the additional strain on the infrastructure (due to TIFF), and I don't believe that this part of the neighborhood is "blighted." If Opus, Lyda, and the City want to fix blighted, they should build this building at the corner of Euclid and Delmar. That would be some true mixing of upper-class and blighted, and push the niceness boundry of the neighborhood farther north.



And, according to the language found in Board Bill 358CS http://stlcin.missouri.org/Document/ald ... /BB358.pdf), I really don't like how Opus is planning to target people who live "an alternative lifestyle." That is just offensive language, the equivalent of, "we think they are abnormal but we'll take their money anyway."



But most of all, I don't think it's right for a corporate interest (that isn't even based in our local economy) to recieve special treatment from city officials, especially when this may break the law and create a bad historic preservation precedent. Yes, St. Louis needs development, but needs to travel down a more responsible path and develop the areas that are impoverished, need infrastructure built, and need to be revitalized. Just think, the parking lot next to the Breadco is pretty crappy and might make a nice revitalization high-rise project too-- just tear down a few hundred year old houses next to it for the parking garage. But it makes more sense to build these "revitalization projects" someplace else where it won't affect continuing to live in our nice houses, our view, the traffic, the added strain on the other infrastructure and will help elevate the standard of living and property values along the less affluent fringes of the neighborhood. That is how you help with revitilization.




A. Drunken people spending money does not create crime, it only creates revenue for bars and restaraunts which prevent crime due to their patrons. When there is activity in a neighborhood, crime stays away. You should be glad that your neighborhood is lucky enough to have this activity, many do not.



I have never seen any crime in Maryland Plaza, you must be stereotyping.



I have also never seen people throwing beer bottles in the front yards of houses. Furthermore, there are no houses in Maryland Plaza, at least not directly connected to the plaza.



If there is problems with this behavior, then you should call the police, instead of protesting development.



Finally, this development is not a 40 story Casino/Bar; this is residential, and the requirement for tennancy is not 20something drunks. You are stereotyping the type of residents that this building will attract.



B. Cities are dense, this is why they are called 'Urban' and not 'Suburban'. Traffic on Lindell is far better than St. Charles, where I used to live; I think you should view this traffic as positive. People obviously enjoy driving through Lindell, when they could take other streets, or the highway. The traffic is not very bad on Lindell, and another building is not going to tip it over 'the edge.'



C. Again, alternative lifestyle does not mean they will be sacrificing goats and smoking crack, while engaging in sodomy with a horse. Maybe they mean alternative compared to living in a house, or living in the suburbs. You need to realize that alternative is good. CWE offers an alternative lifestyle to my neighborhood of North Hampton, in that the CWE is more diverse and Urban in its housing and night life. Alternatives is what people need; if the city offers no alternatives, then it would be boring and stagnant.



D. Corporate interests are the people with the dollars for development. Are you planning on rehabbing houses in North St. Louis personally? Do you plan on raising the funds to develop areas of the city which are in decline? If not then you need to reevaulate your position. You are saying you want to turn away corporate investment in your neighborhood, when many other neighborhoods would kill for this. I cannot believe you are against development in your neighborhood.



These developments are not going to affect your lifestyle. I do not understand how citizens can say that a tower will truely affect their lives. Development of this kind is good, and if this tower is all you have to complain about, then your neighborhood is in good condition, be happy for that.



E. This building will be historic in 50-75 Years. New development must occur if you wish to have a neighborhood in 50-75 years. Create something for your children instead of being narrowminded and ethnocentric.

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PostMar 07, 2006#310

stlouiscitizen--



I live in a historic CWE building and I welcome new residents. The more the merrier. That's what a city should be. Everyone welcome. I don't live my life in an insular bubble. I believe my neighborhood belongs to everyone, not just me. I hate that exclusive, offensive "this is the way we've been doing it, and that's how we want it to stay." No wonder St. Louis has this provincial reputation. Bring on the tower, bring on the traffic, bring on the new neighbors. It's a sign of a growing city. I'll put up with some inconveniences if it means the city will benefit in the long-run. I realize the opposition is just as concerned for their neighborhood as I am, but I think you have irrational and misguided fears. Your historic Central West End isn't going anywhere. Nobody is going to tear down our beautiful historic buildings to build this thing. If you want everything to stay the same for decades, move to a small town where nothing happens. The city is a dynamic place by nature, and should be allowed to evolve. I'd rather this new tower be built in the CWE than in Clayton. There is a market for this type of housing now. Let's meet the demand or the newcomers will go elsewhere.



btw, I live ON THE SAME BLOCK as the proposed Opus tower. Should I be scared? Why? I see it as a boon to the neighborhood. More eyes on the streets at night when I walk my dog, more activity around the clock, more lively atmosphere to enjoy, more interesting architecture to enhance the cityscape, more neighbors to wave to, more of an urban environment. The dead American Heart Association building is far more frightening than a shiny new tower full of residents.

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PostMar 07, 2006#311

I think that St Louis Citizen wanted to express his platform, opinions and website.

Good to see he found us and there is opposition to his/her opposition.

The best way to fight their platform is with ours which I believe will prove stronger, larger and more level/logical. After reading his/her comments about this project, it sounds like he/she has "other motives" or particulars that are driving this opposition that are masked by "historical" reasoning.

But overall, these issues will not get done here bantering back and fourth - but on the streets and in meetings.

Great job. :)



PS: Make sure the issues above (given by stl citizen) are taken/printed and brought up at meetings/votes. I think the public may want to know what other "issues" are truly in play to block this great project.



STAND TALL!


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PostMar 07, 2006#312

StLcitizen wrote:
Just think how difficult it is already to drive Euclid, make a left onto Lindell, etc...


Yep, that's why I like walking Euclid better than driving it. And those moving to the CWE largely prefer a more walkable lifestyle.



StLcitizen also wrote:
I really don't like how Opus is planning to target people who live "an alternative lifestyle."


By "alternate lifestyle," Opus means the very people choosing to live a more walkable lifestyle. These are buyers, renters and patrons that choose to live, work and play in a denser, more walkable environment. Since many American households still prefer to drive everywhere (and maybe yourself included if worried ultimately about traffic), these self-selecting individuals are an "alternate" market. But the demand is there, with the CWE being an area in high demand for such less auto-dependent lifestyle.

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PostMar 07, 2006#313

The "I don't want any traffic congestion" argument is just laughable.



Okay sir, sorry to inconvenience your little corner of the world. There is traffic because people want to be there. That is a good thing. Traffic is a characteristic of a CITY. Get used to it. If you want a quiet place all to yourself, you picked the wrong neighborhood.

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PostMar 07, 2006#314

Like most in this forum, I take serious issue with many of StLcitizen's points.



First off, the "out of town money is bad" argument. Frankly, this makes no sense. How is it anything but a positive that an entity from out of town wants to pump millions of dollars INTO the St. Louis economy? And moreover, I believe the whole point to be disingenuous because I highly doubt that his objections would suddenly disappear if a local entity, rather than a foreign one, was funding this project.



the corollary to his argument states that an "out of town" entity should not be receiving tax credits. This appears to be yet another example of the fundamental misperception regarding how these tax credits work - they do not "cost" St. Louis tax revenue. They increase tax revenue - dramatically (as ALL economic impact studies that I have ever seen have proven rather convincingly). The point he is missing is this - absent the tax credits this development would not happen. So you are essentially saying - it is better to receive 70% of a huge pile of tax revenue than none at all. - again, the fact that this revenue is generated from "out of town" capital is nothing but a plus to the region's economy.



The argument that additional residents will increase crime is ridiculous. More people on the street has always lead to a decrease in crime. Moreover, these are high income residents. When on earth has an increase in high income residents lead to an increase in crime?



as for the inconveniences of congestions argument: the fact that traffic will increase. So what? As many have pointed out, if you desire monastic solitude and sparsely populated roadways you should live in the suburbs (though you might be surprised at the current traffic levels of Manchester and the rest). Moreover, I would wager the central west end has "historically" supported a far denser population than it does now. Who are you kidding when you imply that a sparsely populated west end is somehow consonant with its "historic character."



Ditto to the "tower is against the character of the neighborhood" argument. The Central West End is riddled with high rises. In the past, it was riddled with more. So how on earth could a building be against the "character of the neighborhood" because its tall? If anything, if we wanted to recreate "historic central west end" we would ADD high rises.



as for the people peeign in your yard. I sympathize. I live in Soulard. But let me tell you this, I would never in a million years want those "bar patrons" to leave my neighborhood. They may be loud at times (and dirty)but they are a tremendous asset. An active city street is a safe city street. Would you rather your streets be dark and empty at night? I could show you many areas in St. Louis where that is the case - they're not the safest areas.

PostMar 07, 2006#315

I've ignored the "alternative lifestyle" point because it makes absolutely no sense.



and as for the comment that this development will "not raise" property values. What are you smoking? I'm an attorney and I deal with quite a bit of development. Let me tell you that you're WAY off on this one. This development and others like are sparking a tremendous interest in CWE real estate.

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PostMar 07, 2006#316

matguy70 wrote:The best way to fight their platform is with ours which I believe will prove stronger, larger and more level/logical.


So there is no room for debate or compromise between the two sides? There is plenty of room as long as one side does not simply want the tower as it is designed and the other wants no development at the site. From what I have heard, neither side is as extreme as the other paints it to be.

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PostMar 07, 2006#317

If they are simply against high rises that bring density then, no - I don;t think we can compromise. If they're concern lies with the design of the highrise then I'm sure a compromise is possible. From what I've read though ... they don't seem to care much about the design - they just don't want the height and density.

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PostMar 07, 2006#318

ecoabsence-- from all we've read and heard from the opposition to this tower, the group appears to be against a fundamental and necessary element of a healthy urban neighborhood: DENSITY. There is no neighborhood in St. Louis better suited for highrsises than the CWE. You needn't look any further than this thread to see the arguments against it...



--it will cause too much traffic

--it will attract too many drunks

--it will attract too many people peeing on 'my' house

--it will bring more crime

--outside investors are bad for the neighborhood



...to see that these objections are absolutely outrageous and therefore incredible.



First they say it's too tall. Then they say it will block their views and cast shadows on their homes. Now they say it's against historic district guidelines. I can't help but question their real motives here. They seem to be uniformly against highrises on their cozy little block, even though such development promises to bring more people who are investing in the neighborhood, spending money in our neighborhood's businesses, and providing a critical mass which will attract even more. I didn't know having hundreds of more homeowners nearby would be a liability. It would seem to me that new homeowners are good for neighborhoods.

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PostMar 07, 2006#319

Has anyone seen Opus' shadow survey to see what kind of shadows the building will cast? I thought I remember hearing that the building is slim enough that the impact will be minimal.

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PostMar 07, 2006#320

It looks even from the first rendering that will be redone that the tower is not wide enough to put any one area under shadow for more than a few hours. Trees can put areas under shadows for as long or longer than a new high rise would.

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PostMar 07, 2006#321

DeBaliviere wrote:Has anyone seen Opus' shadow survey to see what kind of shadows the building will cast? I thought I remember hearing that the building is slim enough that the impact will be minimal.


I concur.

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PostMar 07, 2006#322

So there is no room for debate or compromise between the two sides? There is plenty of room as long as one side does not simply want the tower as it is designed and the other wants no development at the site. From what I have heard, neither side is as extreme as the other paints it to be.


compromise... most likely not - not with the reasonings listed above.



debate away... my post didn't say not to. It did say that we need to attend and be seen/vocal at meetings. The posts here are not going to make a difference on the outside.

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PostMar 08, 2006#323

hmmm, i'm guessing those public meetings will be fun! :lol:

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PostMar 08, 2006#324

Yes, but again, I think we need to have our own meeting to organize our group before we talk with them. This way we can organize and present an agreed upon agenda for the Opus tower. We have to go about this in a systematic way, rather than inviting them before we, ourselves, are organized enough to counter their position.

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PostMar 08, 2006#325

^Yes. But I do think we should get as many urbanstl members to join their forum as possible. Solidarity is very important here. Based on our performance on this thread, I think we're very credible.

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