Took a few photos of the New Kirkwood Performing Arts Center being constructed a the corner of South Taylor and East Monroe street in Kirkwood, one block East of Kirkwood Road (Lindberg) and a block South of Kirkwood City Hall.
![]()
![]()
Has an idea like this ever been floated by Bi-State? MoDot? Blogger? Anyone? Really seems like a no-brainer. Commuter line to Pacific(SW), Festus(S), Alton(N), Edwardsville(NE). The lines already exist right?dredger wrote: ^ Kirkwood is one of the communities like Webster Groves and the county that would benefit from a heavy rail commuter offering shared with the UP/BNSF from Alton, IL to maybe as far west as Pacific, MO. Something for morning and evening commutes along with specials timed for games, major events at Busch/Downtown. Think of my time living downtown Lisle IL a short walk away from Metra trains/service.
No need for massive build out vision or plan but something along the line of the Nashville commuter service. A lot of the infrastructure seems in place for Amtrak corridor trains River Runner and Lincoln Service. Just need a few more cities and stations to add
- 6,153
^The lines are there, and there was at one time commuter service on all of these lines. A few of the commuter stations still survive. (Perhaps most notably Tuxedo Park in Webster Groves.) But all of the lines were much different when than they are now. Old pictures and Sanborn maps can be eye-openers. MoP was three and four track most of the way to Kirkwood and maybe beyond. (There was a small yard by the station, including engine servicing facilities, storage tracks for commuter coaches, and a team track or two.) It was double and sometimes even triple or quadruple track on the Iron Mountain more or less all the way out of town. There were dedicated passenger mains, long switching leads for local freight service, more passing tracks, and so on and so forth. Mostly, there was an awful lot more track. And MoDOT is nearly prohibited by state law from investing in rail, and no freight railroad is going to allow commuter passenger service to tie up its mains without significant incentives. Sure, you could do it. Maybe should. But . . . it will take real money to set it up in a way commuter and freight can coexist. Since all of those lines are still very much in freight service. Those which were excess are already trails, Metrolink, or parkways. (And in the case of Metrolink . . . NS was paid handsomely, I believe.)
thank you for such an informative post! What years were the commuter rail lines dismantled? Maybe a bit beyond your expertise but do you know why in other cities commuter rail never died off and continues to thrive?symphonicpoet wrote: ^The lines are there, and there was at one time commuter service on all of these lines. A few of the commuter stations still survive. (Perhaps most notably Tuxedo Park in Webster Groves.) But all of the lines were much different when than they are now. Old pictures and Sanborn maps can be eye-openers. MoP was three and four track most of the way to Kirkwood and maybe beyond. (There was a small yard by the station, including engine servicing facilities, storage tracks for commuter coaches, and a team track or two.) It was double and sometimes even triple or quadruple track on the Iron Mountain more or less all the way out of town. There were dedicated passenger mains, long switching leads for local freight service, more passing tracks, and so on and so forth. Mostly, there was an awful lot more track. And MoDOT is nearly prohibited by state law from investing in rail, and no freight railroad is going to allow commuter passenger service to tie up its mains without significant incentives. Sure, you could do it. Maybe should. But . . . it will take real money to set it up in a way commuter and freight can coexist. Since all of those lines are still very much in freight service. Those which were excess are already trails, Metrolink, or parkways. (And in the case of Metrolink . . . NS was paid handsomely, I believe.)
Commuter rail largely did die out in most cities outside of the nation's transit hubs like NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Philly. Mostly because of suburbanization, freeway building and easy ownership of cars. Some cities like LA and others have had success in resurrecting some of that service but it all comes down to density for the most part. Those larger cities have the population to support large expansive systems. They also have far more resources to manage and maintain them. St. Louis isn't really in that boat. Metro's old long range plan had two commuter lines from Downtown to both Alton and Eureka/Pacific planned, but without funding and serious track improvements, it's not likely to happen.RuskiSTL wrote:thank you for such an informative post! What years were the commuter rail lines dismantled? Maybe a bit beyond your expertise but do you know why in other cities commuter rail never died off and continues to thrive?symphonicpoet wrote: ^The lines are there, and there was at one time commuter service on all of these lines. A few of the commuter stations still survive. (Perhaps most notably Tuxedo Park in Webster Groves.) But all of the lines were much different when than they are now. Old pictures and Sanborn maps can be eye-openers. MoP was three and four track most of the way to Kirkwood and maybe beyond. (There was a small yard by the station, including engine servicing facilities, storage tracks for commuter coaches, and a team track or two.) It was double and sometimes even triple or quadruple track on the Iron Mountain more or less all the way out of town. There were dedicated passenger mains, long switching leads for local freight service, more passing tracks, and so on and so forth. Mostly, there was an awful lot more track. And MoDOT is nearly prohibited by state law from investing in rail, and no freight railroad is going to allow commuter passenger service to tie up its mains without significant incentives. Sure, you could do it. Maybe should. But . . . it will take real money to set it up in a way commuter and freight can coexist. Since all of those lines are still very much in freight service. Those which were excess are already trails, Metrolink, or parkways. (And in the case of Metrolink . . . NS was paid handsomely, I believe.)
I'm by no means arguing that STL should have a heavy commuter rail line. Our downtown needs 10+ years of office repopulation before that can happen.The Mayor wrote: Commuter rail largely did die out in most cities outside of the nation's transit hubs like NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Philly. Mostly because of suburbanization, freeway building and easy ownership of cars. Some cities like LA and others have had success in resurrecting some of that service but it all comes down to density for the most part. Those larger cities have the population to support large expansive systems. They also have far more resources to manage and maintain them. St. Louis isn't really in that boat. Metro's old long range plan had two commuter lines from Downtown to both Alton and Eureka/Pacific planned, but without funding and serious track improvements, it's not likely to happen.
But I will say that you'd be surprised by some heavy commuter rail lines around the country. Mainly Nashville, Albuquerque, Austin, Orlando, parts of suburban Dallas, suburban San Diego, Salt Lake City, etc. Unfortunately some of these lines have less than 3k daily users, which is pretty sad. People believe in these though and want them to work.
Nashville, Austin, and Dallas are also some of the fastest growing cities in the US that are choked with traffic. They're also larger geographically and have far more resources ($$) to advance projects like that. Orlando is one of the most visited cities in the country, Albuquerque is surprise however haha. I actually think they could work in St. Louis, even today. Downtown currently has over 80,000 jobs and close to 20,000 residents in the general area and the South County area where the current alignment runs is one of the denser parts of St. Louis County. Kirkwood, Webster, Maplewood, and a few others still maintain their historical downtowns that were born from the original lines. You could even reopen an old stop like Vandeventer/Tower Grove, which would open a large chunk of the dense South Side to it. It's not out of the question, but would be a monster task.aprice wrote:I'm by no means arguing that STL should have a heavy commuter rail line. Our downtown needs 10+ years of office repopulation before that can happen.The Mayor wrote: Commuter rail largely did die out in most cities outside of the nation's transit hubs like NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Philly. Mostly because of suburbanization, freeway building and easy ownership of cars. Some cities like LA and others have had success in resurrecting some of that service but it all comes down to density for the most part. Those larger cities have the population to support large expansive systems. They also have far more resources to manage and maintain them. St. Louis isn't really in that boat. Metro's old long range plan had two commuter lines from Downtown to both Alton and Eureka/Pacific planned, but without funding and serious track improvements, it's not likely to happen.
But I will say that you'd be surprised by some heavy commuter rail lines around the country. Mainly Nashville, Albuquerque, Austin, Orlando, parts of suburban Dallas, suburban San Diego, Salt Lake City, etc. Unfortunately some of these lines have less than 3k daily users, which is pretty sad. People believe in these though and want them to work.
Anyway, I'm kind of getting us further off topic here. I really love the design of this project. It has a great modern look.
According to the Kirkwood Gadfly blog, there is supposedly a multi-family development in the works for the immediate area around the new Performing Arts Center. It was very vague
https://kirkwoodgadfly.com/performing-a ... is-acting/
https://kirkwoodgadfly.com/performing-a ... is-acting/
From March 2019
Webster-Kirkwood Times - Action On Downtown Kirkwood Study Tabled – Again
Webster-Kirkwood Times - Action On Downtown Kirkwood Study Tabled – Again
https://www.timesnewspapers.com/webster ... b6d5b.htmlThe council has been wringing its hands for months over certain provisions of the report which was delivered in March 2018 by Duany Plater-Zyberk & Co. (DPZ) of Gaithersburg, Maryland. The report cost $120,000.
In November, some council members balked over recommendations regarding building heights and setbacks. The bill implementing the recommendations was tabled until January, and was then set aside for further consideration in March.
- 3,442
I happened to be in Kirkwood yesterday evening and noticed this. It's a superb looking building. Great to see things like this getting built.
- 6,153
I look forward to seeing the inside of it one day soon . . . when we can all play again.
- 3,442
- 6,153
^Agreed. I look forward to the day we can have shows there.
Is that large-scale artwork behind the stairs a static piece, or is it some kind of video or projection?
- 3,442
I've been calling in to the Kirkwood City project zoom meetings exploring ways to extend Grant's Trail into downtown Kirkwood. Latest charts are at this link: https://www.kirkwoodmo.org/home/showpublisheddocument/9360/637728330963970000. Here is a map showing the 4 options under consideration.
- 6,153
^I think I'll nickname option four the "why bother?" option. I used to bike more or less that exactly to school. I can envision few more unpleasant bike rides. Lots of hills. Lots of light industry. Modest traffic. Some significant portions without much in the way of shade. (On a hill by a highway no less.) At least the sewage cistern at the bottom of Leffingwell is out of service. But I'm not sure why they need a study to tell them that one is a bad idea. I could have told them that when I was twelve *mumblety mumble* years ago.
- 3,442
In the Zoom discussion, it was pretty clear that #4 is a non-starter. I think it will come down to #1 or #2. #1 is expensive with tunnels under RR tracks etc. I suggested route #2 as cheap interim step to route #1 eventually. They would just need to acquired the RR spur portion that currently has no tracks on it and has 20 year old trees growing between missing ties. I don't think the RR can argue that they need to keep that spur for the future.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Nov 29, 2021^I think I'll nickname option four the "why bother?" option. I used to bike more or less that exactly to school. I can envision few more unpleasant bike rides. Lots of hills. Lots of light industry. Modest traffic. Some significant portions without much in the way of shade. (On a hill by a highway no less.) At least the sewage cistern at the bottom of Leffingwell is out of service. But I'm not sure why they need a study to tell them that one is a bad idea. I could have told them that when I was twelve *mumblety mumble* years ago.