“I love what’s happening in St. Louis. There is so much redevelopment going on all over. The next four to five years will be the most exciting in the last hundred in terms of revitalization...There is so much new activity in The Loop right now. In the next 18 months, the Loop will take a leap to the next level.

--Joe Edwards



Given the Loop's push Eastward (and north with Wash U North Campus) and the CWE's rising property values, how long do you think it will take before the two are completely connected (no vacant or extremely "ghetto" gaps) along Delmar?



I said about ten years to some of my friends and they looked at me like I'm crazy, but I think this might be a conservative estimate because:



1. It is not like the entire stretch is wasteland. There are nice highrises, retail buildings and apartment buildings that are in decent shape along Delmar between Des Peres and Kingshighway (esp. around DeBaliverre and Belt, etc). Nice neighborhoods are directly south of these nodes and can support them so retail built here won't have to be supported by the western edge entirely.



2. Once the Loop is solidly connected to the Metrolink on the west (some could say it already is), land values of all property on the eastern stretch will rise dramatically. People will be more willing to ride to the Loop once the area around the station is more built up and thus safer. This will lead to more foot traffic to support more retail.



3. Joe Edwards thinks that the Trolley is only 3 years away from being a reality. Obviously this is going to spur some development and raise property values.



4. Joe Edwards has nearly finalized financing on the hotel he is building next to the Pageant. The Loop will become more of a tourist destination now that people from out of town can actually stay in a hotel on it. In the words of Edwards, "A hotel is really what The Loop needs to complete the whole experience and attract more tourism. People can fly to St. Louis, take the MetroLink to the Delmar Loop Station and walk west—it’s that easy. With 45 restaurants, retail shops, a movie theater, bowling alley and 10 live music venues, we have everything right here for a unique experience."



5. The Euclid Business node seems to be moving north, as well as the one on Taylor, towards Delmar. There are some tall buildings with retail in good shape on Euclid and Delmar already. Aren't the Roberts or someone proposing development at Delmar and Kingshighway?



Also isn't there talk about extending the limits of the CWE northwards or something along those lines that would allow for tax credits in rehabbing buildings in that northern area? That would go a long way towards making the area north of Delmar as an acceptable area to own a house. The housing stock is top notch and would be a bargain compared to the houses in the heart of the CWE.

Without specific development like a streetcar or an ambitious developer taking on a section in the middle (like the area around the old St. Luke's), it will take well more than 10 years for the areas to connect. Why? While Joe Edwards is pushing hard to move east and connect the Loop with the Delmar Metrolink stop, the CWE is not making a similar push north. If anything, the CWE is moving east (Gaslight Square, Cortex). And while Edwards can push the commerical strip for the Loop further east, at a certian point, the commerical must become a new node with housing and a different center, and my guess is that center would be approximatly where the old St. Luke's sits.



(roll that idea in your head for a minute, what if St. Lukes had never left... sigh... ok back to reality).



And remember, while the CWE is a great neighborhood, what is the ultimate driver of its growth? My guess is Wash U and Barnes. There is no similar weight node pushing growth between the Loop and the CWE. Without such a draw, the CWE has little reason to expand north, but great reason to expand south and east with all thats happening with Cortex and with Forest Park Southeast.



so where does this lave the CWE and Loop. Both are great neighborhoods and the respective development for each are only strengthening both, but without a concerted effort to either develope a streetbased transit link with stops that will help define new nodes for growth or a developer steping up and taking an 3-4 block area around delmar and creating a node, I just don't think the momentum will push the two together anytime soon.

tbspqr wrote:I said 20+ years becuase of all the momentum that is going to only pickup downtown, it will hamper developments else where I am afraid. BV, TBD, Casino, CL etc. These are all big deveopmetns that if all of them are going to go thru, the entire metro area needs to be behind them. And part of me doesn't want them to combine, they are both urban and they are both fun, but they have such differnet feels, if they were to combine, it may neutralize the feelings of each one...

I disagree. Development in the city is not a zero-sum game. A lot of people on this forum seem to believe that demand for city living is fixed. That there are only a certain amount of people and once they all move in, no more development can take place. This is evident in the threads about the Bottle District, Ballpark Village, and Chouteau's Landing. "Can we support all of this development? Who are going to buy all of those condos?" etc. The reality is that as downtown is renovated and becomes nicer, more people will want to live there.



Demand for living in a downtown with abandoned bombed-out buildings, empty cracked sidewalks, and no retail is much lower than demand for a renovated, rejuvenated and safe city center. The Bottle District, Ballpark Village, Chouteau's Landing will all compliment each other rather than compete for survival just the same as Washington Avenue and Old Post Office Square's revival have supported each other. With all of these developments coming online and the lake connecting downtown to the historic southside, I believe we have only begun to see a trickle of demand for city living...



This applies citywide as well. What is good for downtown is good for midtown and the CWE and the Loop. It will change people's perceptions of the city for the better.





That is why I like the possibility of two of the city's most visible and interesting neighborhoods connecting. It will alter the perception of the city as a bunch of islands of cool neighborhoods in a sea of vacant lots and abandoned buildings. The larger these islands grow and connect the better. That is why it is important for downtown to connect to grand center, Soulard to connect to LS and BPW, Chouteaus lake and landing to connect downtown to the southside, midtown to the CWE, CWE to the Loop and hopefully Bottle District to Old North St. Louis.

I think we will see some more renovation in the houses that are within walking distance of Delmar, and especially the station. These are built of quality construction. For things to really take off, they will need to be listed as historic neighborhoods. Wasn't there talk of extending the CWE Historic District north? The biggest obstacle is all of the suburban crap housing being built on a lot of the blocks to the northeast.



There is already work going forward on the eastern parts of Delmar, not just stuff by the Pageant. There are some newly constructed townhomes near Kingshighway (not that I like the design) and it seems that a lot of storefronts are renovated near DeBaliviere.

Framer wrote:I think Delmar will continue to fill-in simply because it's the only street with commercial potential between UCity and the CWE. Neither Lindell nor Forest Park Parkway are available for development. And Page is too far North. There's really no option other than Delmar. As the CWE and UCity continue to grow, Delmar will inevitably become more and more important as a connector.

pershing feels like it is not reaching its potential commercially...