Urban Review St. Louis wrote:In cities like Chicago or Seattle they'd let you have a single curb cut and then you put your parking underneath the whole building to serve the units. Not quite as private as your own garage but it really makes a big difference.
Exactly... just one of those small details that would have made this development a little better. I wasn't at the meeting, but I wonder if the St. Louis Planning Commission gave that idea some thought?
Shared parking underneath with one entrance would require condos owning only the air space above, with the lower level held by the condo association.
Though when single-family detached homes get so close together, you might as well have townhomes, evidently, detached is still seen as more marketable. Likewise, even when townhomes get so narrow, the yards so small and individual parking access impractical that you might as well have condos, apparently, townhomes are still seen as more marketable.
IOW, many folks, no matter how close their house sits to another, still wouldn't want a party wall. And likewise, many folks, no matter how little yard and parking they have, still want to independently own their little piece of land and pavement.
southslider wrote:Shared parking underneath with one entrance would require condos owning only the air space above, with the lower level held by the condo association.
Though when single-family detached homes get so close together, you might as well have townhomes, evidently, detached is still seen as more marketable. Likewise, even when townhomes get so narrow, the yards so small and individual parking access impractical that you might as well have condos, apparently, townhomes are still seen as more marketable.
IOW, many folks, no matter how close their house sits to another, still wouldn't want a party wall. And likewise, many folks, no matter how little yard and parking they have, still want to independently own their little piece of land and pavement.
But are they really more marketable or is that simply the developers in St. Louis thinking this is what the public wants? The lofts downtown with shared garage parking are certainly marketable. Other cities have embraced this concept so what makes us different?
You are not going to get people coming to the open house saying, "I would have bought here except for the five curb cuts." The general public doens't think about those things. They look at what they offered and either buy it or they don't.
In Clayton/U-City along Forsyth we've seen some very high-end buildings go up with shared parking via a single entrance. Those buyers didn't seem to object to this arrangement. Are you suggesting it is a class or city thing?
I think it is that our developers don't travel much and simply don't know much beyond single family houses. They are only creative enough to squeeze single family homes together and call them townhouses.
Show me a 5-unit development in St. Louis that used shared parking like I described that didn't sell and then I'll buy your argument.
UrbanReview, I prefer the parking set up that you suggest and think it would sell.
Of course, it would create a need for a condo fee, which wouldn't bother me personally. But, as it is, are these houses without that type of fee? This area is semi-suburban. The developers might think that condo type developments would be less popular in this neighborhood, and I suspect they are correct. Clayton, CWE, UCity, and similar areas have a history of condo ownership. I don't think this neighborhood does.
Again, you are probably right, they would sell. The developer could probably push the envelope a little more. But, could they be responding to the market in this neigbhorhood?
Expat wrote:Again, you are probably right, they would sell. The developer could probably push the envelope a little more. But, could they be responding to the market in this neigbhorhood?
It is very hard to say they are "responding to the market" simply because we haven't seen much development at all. Most of what has been built new has been single family houses. This has more to do with the false thinking by many that if the city were all single family houses we would have no social ills.
The public, officials and developers are afraid of density. But a five-unit condo with common parking is the same density as five townhouses on the same site. Developers and city officials are simply too afraid to try something new.
The one exception is Rollin Stanley. I could see him trying to convince this developer to do a single entry to parking for this site.
I'll conceed that such an arrangment would have added some additional code requirements and would have likely needed another unit or two to get the same financial return to the developer. This brings us back to the fear of density issue.
First...I agree with you. St. Louis development seems to rarely focus on these sort of issues.
That said, I'm less concerned for this project because of its location. The 5700 block of Arsenal? It's a very quiet residential street at that point. So I'm relatively unmoved by the amount of curb cuts. Maybe it's the idea of it being west of Kingshighway, which I think is sort of the barrier for the true urbanity.
Trent I agree the location is less of a concern than say Arsenal & Grand (or Jefferson). But it is still in the city therefore I think it is valid to expect at least some thought given to requiring things a bit more urban. If we are going to excuse less urban development I'd prefer we did so at the city limits or even on the other side of the first ring of suburbs.
What happens when this developer buys a similar lot East of Kingshighway and wants to build the same thing. I'm just afraid we are going to let things get to lax all over the city.
Aside from all the doors and the fact they are shown in bright white (I'd prefer darker windows & garage doors) I think they'd done a nice job with design.
Like I said, Steve, we are in agreement. I'd say that you have to approach each project differently. We're not dealing with terrorists, we're dealing with developers. Some might say they are one in the same, but if they wanted to do that developement in TGS, I'd have a problem with it, and would do what I could to eliminate the curb cuts.
But good points. I'd really like to see them abandon the white doors.
I still think there is some market distinction between detached houses, townhomes and condos. You might get someone looking for a house to consider a townhome, or someone looking for a townhome to consider a condo, but to make the full leap from house to condo is harder. Conversely, you have those in the condo market that wouldn't dare consider having a yard to maintain.
And there is even a market value or unique appeal to a segment of buyers to have private garage access. Indeed, some buyers won't consider things like alley access, a detached garage, or shared parking access. Personally, my only prefence as a buyer is some form of off-street parking, though I ultimately choose a location more so by how many amenities I can walk to. But as you see, preferences vary.
And you have to realize the context of this area. The 5700 block of Arsenal and its immediately surrounding blocks generally lack sidewalk storefronts and other zero-lot-line development, with limited exceptions on nearby Southwest Avenue, but nothing in close proximity along Arsenal. If there were an alley or the lot had access to a corner to make a new alley, then I'd say no garages fronting Arsenal. But in this case, the site is landlocked, and surrounding development to the south also has front-access garages.
While developers scramble to deliver downtown lofts and Central West End condos to meet a renewed demand for city living, other opportunities exist to cash in on St. Louis' budding urban revival in much lower-profile ways.
One company attempting to do so is Highland Homes, a small builder based in University City.
The company, just three years old, is trying to carve a niche of building new houses on small, under-used lots in St. Louis and its older suburbs.
Half of the footings were pumped into place last week, and forms are going up on top of the footings this week for the eastern half of the building. looks like real work is getting started.
