bikin'_man wrote:http://www.mayorslay.com/news/display.asp?prID=123
Wow, I just love renderings.
That one is beautiful.
Wow, I just love renderings.
That one is beautiful.
- 1,649
trent wrote:bikin'_man wrote:
Wow, I just love renderings.
That one is beautiful.
Steve Patterson just posted his own critique of the Grand Avenue Bridge...
Grand Bridge Should Follow Columbus Ohio Example
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/000408.php
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Again - while I love the new bridge and am thankful for it - what about a street car line? This mere sentence would console me: "we have considered addig a street car line in the future and believe it could run alongside traffic."
I just want to know that people are at least thinking about and that the bridge could be compatioble with a street car line in the future. I just don;t understand why we never hear any serious suggestions on this issue ... adding a few street car lines just makes so much sense for the region. I've said it a dozen time ... couple metrolink with 4 -6 decent street car lines and you essentially create a fully functional transit system - and give birth to a city where one really can get by without a car.
the increased foot traffic (and resultant development) could well elevate this city back to its once vaunted position as one of this country's premier urban centers.
I just want to know that people are at least thinking about and that the bridge could be compatioble with a street car line in the future. I just don;t understand why we never hear any serious suggestions on this issue ... adding a few street car lines just makes so much sense for the region. I've said it a dozen time ... couple metrolink with 4 -6 decent street car lines and you essentially create a fully functional transit system - and give birth to a city where one really can get by without a car.
the increased foot traffic (and resultant development) could well elevate this city back to its once vaunted position as one of this country's premier urban centers.
I do love the bridge though ... it will look fantastic ...
(streetcar - cough - streetcar)
(streetcar - cough - streetcar)
I have a vision for St. Louis - and it includes the ability to zip around on fixed line mass-transit. Anyone who has lived in a city with such a system will attest to the fact that it is central to the urban expereince. It creates crowds - density - variety and the bustle we all refer to when we call an area "urban." (not to mention significant new development)
If I had the power, I would add about six well placed street car lines and intergrate them with metrolink. Create stations along the routes similar to the metrolink stations we have now. Add heat lamps (ala Chicago's EL) and maybe even air coolers for the summer. Then I would mandate that the entire system stay open until 3 am (maybe some residential stations could close earlier). I would sell transit passes that allow for unlimited use for about 40 bucks a month. If I could, I would continue to add metrolink lines and design the metro so that people in the county could use it to get quickly back into the urban core (I envision people zipping in from kirkwood, webster, chesterfied, st. charles etc - and then linking up with the street car lines if need be).
I just can't imagine that such a projet would be beyond our city's ability to fund.
anyway - anyoen want to vote for me?
(if elected I also promise to employ a spell check)
If I had the power, I would add about six well placed street car lines and intergrate them with metrolink. Create stations along the routes similar to the metrolink stations we have now. Add heat lamps (ala Chicago's EL) and maybe even air coolers for the summer. Then I would mandate that the entire system stay open until 3 am (maybe some residential stations could close earlier). I would sell transit passes that allow for unlimited use for about 40 bucks a month. If I could, I would continue to add metrolink lines and design the metro so that people in the county could use it to get quickly back into the urban core (I envision people zipping in from kirkwood, webster, chesterfied, st. charles etc - and then linking up with the street car lines if need be).
I just can't imagine that such a projet would be beyond our city's ability to fund.
anyway - anyoen want to vote for me?
(if elected I also promise to employ a spell check)
- 1,026
I aslo excuse your horrible typing/spelling ... we are truly brothers
Resurrecting the, imo, ever importance of a new Grand Bridge...I came across an article written in University News. I apologize if its been discussed in other threads. Interesting stuff. If anyone has any more or new information, I'd love to hear about it.
A Grand Idea
Group makes bold statement for making the boulevard grand again
Matthew Lehner
Issue date: 4/6/06 Section: Features
Grand Boulevard and the industrial wasteland below it may undergo a major transformation if a new plan is implemented. In the Pere Marquette Gallery in DuBourg Hall last Friday afternoon, the Urban Land Institute announced the winner of its Gerald D. Hines competition. The competition selected approximately 100 acres surrounding and including the Grand Boulevard viaduct area for its 2006 competition. Out of the 82 plans submitted, four finalists were chosen. Those finalists returned to St. Louis to review the site in more detail and to submit their final plans.
Grand idea
One of the four finalists, a group from Harvard, Bridging Innovation at Grand Crossing, was selected as the winner of this year's competition. Their plan focuses on making the area a major entertainment and economic district, while also setting aside space for residential housing. The winning group's plan is built on three main ideas: Developing the armory, reactivating Grand Boulevard and promoting biotech industry. These initiatives will make the area a place to work, live and entertain, and will better connect Saint Louis University's Frost and Health Sciences campuses.
The anchor of the area would be a proposed 20-story residential high-rise or hotel that would have a view of the Gateway Arch and the proposed Chouteau's lake. The armory would be redesigned into a multiuse facility with a cinema, bookstores, cafes, a fitness center and restaurants. The winning group wanted to focus its development on the existing Grand Boulevard corridor, rather than building more infrastructure, as other groups had proposed.
Under this plan, retail space would extend from the north and south sides of the bridge toward the center, making the bridge shorter. The bridge would also be redesigned to provide for wider sidewalks, planted medians, street parking and access to the MetroLink station.
In fall 2005, the City of St. Louis announced a design for the replacement of the Grand Bridge, after United States Senator Kit Bond got $15 million allocated for the Grand Bridge project (The University News reported on the design, in this section).
Which plan gets put into action to redo the Grand Bridge?
The plan that was announced in fall 2005 will most likely go through in the near future, when the project is fully funded. Elements of the Harvard plan could possibly be used later down the road, since it calls for more than the reconstruction of the Grand Bridge.
Almost all agree that the current bridge does not serve as a pedestrian-friendly area.
"Right now, the bridge serves only as a vehicular thoroughfare and deters the pedestrian activity that is so crucial to a successful urban environment," said Tom Hussey, one of the winning group's members.
Urbanists agree that this plan for the bridge and the surrounding area is a long-term solution to fixing the industrial wasteland that has not only been an eyesore for years, but that has also restricted urban growth.
"Long bridges, no matter how pretty the median plantings, are just not something people want to cross, as pedestrians. By shortening the bridge length to just the area that is needed to cross the tracks and building up the rest of Grand Boulevard as a retail/entertainment street, this is the best approach to connect SLUs two campuses and to connect St. Louis," said Steve Patterson, an urbanist who has written extensively on St. Louis' urban decay and recovery.
If this plan were implemented, would it actually bring about urban growth or would it just be another big flop? People want to know what makes this project different from others such as the Grand Center, which was supposed to be one of the projects that would bring Grand back to life (most argue it has a ways to go).
"This plan acts as a catalyst for future development and growth. People are once again looking for urban living, where they can be closer to work and school, public transit and commercial activity. This plan embodies all of this," said Hussey.
Many love the idea and applaud it, but are wondering who will pay for it. Hussey said that one of the hardest things for his team was to create a plan that accomplished all of the goals of redesigning the area, while also making it feasible for developers and institutions to invest in, and for the project to be done in stages.
"Forecasting projected demand for particular uses over the next 20 years was the hardest challenge to this project. We had to envision a plan that could be phased such that the initial development could thrive and lead to demand for future phases and development," Hussey said.
Will the plan ever happen?
The most important thing to note is that these students were given a real-world application, and that these are some of the ideas of what may happen. "The area will get rebuilt at some point. Sadly, this will be after many years of the current owners not doing much, since the area has been blighted for redevelopment. The final outcome may borrow some elements from the concepts presented, but most likely we will get something far less inspiring, wrapped in red brick," Patterson said.
The plan will affect SLU in the years to come, whether the whole plan or just parts are implemented. Students often mentioned the Grand Bridge as one of their complaints about SLU. Urban retail along Grand Boulevard and the redevelopment of the armory, as the plan calls for, could mean no more trips to Brentwood or West County for students. Many of these things will come with time and action by developers, including SLU, and continuing investment in urban development as a catalyst for growth.
"The biggest challenge [in St. Louis' urban recovery] is those in charge, all the way from the aldermen to business and institutional leaders. Large institutions such as A.G. Edwards and Saint Louis University have spent hundreds of millions of dollars but sometimes done so in a way that does not encourage good urbanity. These investments actually stifle the rebirth of the city by not bringing folks together on the streets and sidewalks," Patterson said. "Many of the proposals, including the winner, would be a major step forward for this area and the region."
A Grand Idea
Group makes bold statement for making the boulevard grand again
Matthew Lehner
Issue date: 4/6/06 Section: Features
Grand Boulevard and the industrial wasteland below it may undergo a major transformation if a new plan is implemented. In the Pere Marquette Gallery in DuBourg Hall last Friday afternoon, the Urban Land Institute announced the winner of its Gerald D. Hines competition. The competition selected approximately 100 acres surrounding and including the Grand Boulevard viaduct area for its 2006 competition. Out of the 82 plans submitted, four finalists were chosen. Those finalists returned to St. Louis to review the site in more detail and to submit their final plans.
Grand idea
One of the four finalists, a group from Harvard, Bridging Innovation at Grand Crossing, was selected as the winner of this year's competition. Their plan focuses on making the area a major entertainment and economic district, while also setting aside space for residential housing. The winning group's plan is built on three main ideas: Developing the armory, reactivating Grand Boulevard and promoting biotech industry. These initiatives will make the area a place to work, live and entertain, and will better connect Saint Louis University's Frost and Health Sciences campuses.
The anchor of the area would be a proposed 20-story residential high-rise or hotel that would have a view of the Gateway Arch and the proposed Chouteau's lake. The armory would be redesigned into a multiuse facility with a cinema, bookstores, cafes, a fitness center and restaurants. The winning group wanted to focus its development on the existing Grand Boulevard corridor, rather than building more infrastructure, as other groups had proposed.
Under this plan, retail space would extend from the north and south sides of the bridge toward the center, making the bridge shorter. The bridge would also be redesigned to provide for wider sidewalks, planted medians, street parking and access to the MetroLink station.
In fall 2005, the City of St. Louis announced a design for the replacement of the Grand Bridge, after United States Senator Kit Bond got $15 million allocated for the Grand Bridge project (The University News reported on the design, in this section).
Which plan gets put into action to redo the Grand Bridge?
The plan that was announced in fall 2005 will most likely go through in the near future, when the project is fully funded. Elements of the Harvard plan could possibly be used later down the road, since it calls for more than the reconstruction of the Grand Bridge.
Almost all agree that the current bridge does not serve as a pedestrian-friendly area.
"Right now, the bridge serves only as a vehicular thoroughfare and deters the pedestrian activity that is so crucial to a successful urban environment," said Tom Hussey, one of the winning group's members.
Urbanists agree that this plan for the bridge and the surrounding area is a long-term solution to fixing the industrial wasteland that has not only been an eyesore for years, but that has also restricted urban growth.
"Long bridges, no matter how pretty the median plantings, are just not something people want to cross, as pedestrians. By shortening the bridge length to just the area that is needed to cross the tracks and building up the rest of Grand Boulevard as a retail/entertainment street, this is the best approach to connect SLUs two campuses and to connect St. Louis," said Steve Patterson, an urbanist who has written extensively on St. Louis' urban decay and recovery.
If this plan were implemented, would it actually bring about urban growth or would it just be another big flop? People want to know what makes this project different from others such as the Grand Center, which was supposed to be one of the projects that would bring Grand back to life (most argue it has a ways to go).
"This plan acts as a catalyst for future development and growth. People are once again looking for urban living, where they can be closer to work and school, public transit and commercial activity. This plan embodies all of this," said Hussey.
Many love the idea and applaud it, but are wondering who will pay for it. Hussey said that one of the hardest things for his team was to create a plan that accomplished all of the goals of redesigning the area, while also making it feasible for developers and institutions to invest in, and for the project to be done in stages.
"Forecasting projected demand for particular uses over the next 20 years was the hardest challenge to this project. We had to envision a plan that could be phased such that the initial development could thrive and lead to demand for future phases and development," Hussey said.
Will the plan ever happen?
The most important thing to note is that these students were given a real-world application, and that these are some of the ideas of what may happen. "The area will get rebuilt at some point. Sadly, this will be after many years of the current owners not doing much, since the area has been blighted for redevelopment. The final outcome may borrow some elements from the concepts presented, but most likely we will get something far less inspiring, wrapped in red brick," Patterson said.
The plan will affect SLU in the years to come, whether the whole plan or just parts are implemented. Students often mentioned the Grand Bridge as one of their complaints about SLU. Urban retail along Grand Boulevard and the redevelopment of the armory, as the plan calls for, could mean no more trips to Brentwood or West County for students. Many of these things will come with time and action by developers, including SLU, and continuing investment in urban development as a catalyst for growth.
"The biggest challenge [in St. Louis' urban recovery] is those in charge, all the way from the aldermen to business and institutional leaders. Large institutions such as A.G. Edwards and Saint Louis University have spent hundreds of millions of dollars but sometimes done so in a way that does not encourage good urbanity. These investments actually stifle the rebirth of the city by not bringing folks together on the streets and sidewalks," Patterson said. "Many of the proposals, including the winner, would be a major step forward for this area and the region."
Pretty. But my dreams fantasize of the day that we can put retail along the bridge to really connect it. Just like the design that won that contest a while back. Dream big. Put up the money SLU!
^^ I dunno... I'm not really fond of victorian-style bridges. They always seem too heavy and too busy.
Well, the Victorian era was the original era of excess. I would rather have a pretty viaduct then the asexual ones we have all over the city.
To me at least, it seems most bridges in this country built after the 1940's lack any eye-pleasing design elements.
To me at least, it seems most bridges in this country built after the 1940's lack any eye-pleasing design elements.
Tysalpha wrote:^^ I dunno... I'm not really fond of victorian-style bridges. They always seem too heavy and too busy.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Victorian Era bridges were built with iron. After steel came along, engineers were able to produce stronger, yet lighter-looking structures.
Personally, I love the over-the-top Victorian style.
- 466
^^^ you are correct. the chicago el is made of iron, and if it was made of steel, you could have thoes wonderful huge beams be halk the size. it just wouldn't have the same impact. so yes, i agree, bigger is better.
Well I'm no minimalist, but this style is just too 'fussy' to me. For example the fencing along the perimeter and the latticework in the main supports of the superstructure. Also, I like the idea of being able to see out through a bridge to look at the view as unobstructedly as possible.
That being said, it's really just a matter of personal taste and I can value an authentic historic structure like this bridge was.
That being said, it's really just a matter of personal taste and I can value an authentic historic structure like this bridge was.
Although I'm not a fan of Victorian architecture, I feel that it had its time and think it adds dynamics to an area that such structures occupy. I DO have a problem when we try to mimic such designs today. As I said, it had its time and it isn't now. It is my philosophy to "leave the old and build in new" (designs and materials). This leaves a progression in the community and a history that many American cities lack.
P.S. - This goes for all styles, not just Victorian
P.S. - This goes for all styles, not just Victorian
I don't necessarily understand why everyone dislikes mimicking architectual styles. I say if it is done right then it still has the potential to be great. Remember, the Renaissance and Neo-Classical architects were heavily drawing from the Greeks and the Romans. We do live in a post-romantic culture where originality is highly valued but to a certain extent, you have to borrow from the past. In fact, so long as you put some sort of stamp of progress and modernity into it, romanticizing the past can be quite beautiful.
My objection to imitation usually has less to do with originality and more to do with quality. When a new building/bridge/whathaveyou is built to imitate an older style, often corners are cut and the materials used are cheap variants that are meant to look similar to the original. So much of the imitation ends up looking like cheap knockoffs that really just stand to mock an older style. Very rarely does the modern imitation do justice to the original masterpiece.
^ Also, historic styles were contemporary in their own time, and often things that we think of as unique "features" to the style were really just the way architects worked within the limitations of the materials. Someone pointed out the heaviness of iron structures (compared to steel today). Another example would be the setbacks on deco-era skyscrapers.
Part of the problem, I think, is that we don't have these same limitations today, and so when we build in some of these "features" they look superflous and discordant. And as Jax said, we then cut other features for cost.
Part of the problem, I think, is that we don't have these same limitations today, and so when we build in some of these "features" they look superflous and discordant. And as Jax said, we then cut other features for cost.
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The old consultant for this project was let go, HDR has been selected to continue design work on the bridge. BTW, the latest renderings I've seen look similar minus the wires on top.
HDR wins Grand Ave Viaduct project
St. Louis Business Journal - 11:25 AM CST Friday, February 9, 2007
HDR Engineering Inc. was selected by the St. Louis Board of Public Service to lead the first phase of planning the $25 million replacement of the Grand Avenue Viaduct, located between Chouteau Avenue and Interstate 64.
Upon completion, the proposed bridge will carry two traffic lanes in each direction separated by a landscaped median, according to the city of St. Louis' request for qualifications (RFQ).
Omaha, Neb.-based HDR Engineering Inc. operates more than 140 offices in the United States, Canada and U.K., including one in St. Louis. HDR was selected as the bridge design's prime consultant after making the city's short list, which included Modjeski and Masters Inc., based in Harrisburg, Pa., and St. Louis-based Horner & Shifrin Inc.
[snip]
The new bridge will feature a bicycle lane located outside the traffic lanes, and a raised sidewalk for pedestrians will be provided on each side of the structure. Earth-filled concrete planters will be placed on the sidewalk near the face of curb to protect pedestrians from errant vehicles. The middle of the completed bridge will be additionally widened to accommodate bus drop-off lanes in each direction and to provide adequate sidewalk width for passengers awaiting buses, according to the RFQ.
Link to Story
HDR wins Grand Ave Viaduct project
St. Louis Business Journal - 11:25 AM CST Friday, February 9, 2007
HDR Engineering Inc. was selected by the St. Louis Board of Public Service to lead the first phase of planning the $25 million replacement of the Grand Avenue Viaduct, located between Chouteau Avenue and Interstate 64.
Upon completion, the proposed bridge will carry two traffic lanes in each direction separated by a landscaped median, according to the city of St. Louis' request for qualifications (RFQ).
Omaha, Neb.-based HDR Engineering Inc. operates more than 140 offices in the United States, Canada and U.K., including one in St. Louis. HDR was selected as the bridge design's prime consultant after making the city's short list, which included Modjeski and Masters Inc., based in Harrisburg, Pa., and St. Louis-based Horner & Shifrin Inc.
[snip]
The new bridge will feature a bicycle lane located outside the traffic lanes, and a raised sidewalk for pedestrians will be provided on each side of the structure. Earth-filled concrete planters will be placed on the sidewalk near the face of curb to protect pedestrians from errant vehicles. The middle of the completed bridge will be additionally widened to accommodate bus drop-off lanes in each direction and to provide adequate sidewalk width for passengers awaiting buses, according to the RFQ.
Link to Story
^ Also, historic styles were contemporary in their own time, and often things that we think of as unique "features" to the style were really just the way architects worked within the limitations of the materials. Someone pointed out the heaviness of iron structures (compared to steel today). Another example would be the setbacks on deco-era skyscrapers.
Part of the problem, I think, is that we don't have these same limitations today, and so when we build in some of these "features" they look superflous and discordant. And as Jax said, we then cut other features for cost.
The Eads bridge was the first to use steel trusses in the WORLD. That was in the 1860's. I'm not sure the exact date of the Grand Bridge, but might have used both. I'm not sure. What's next in bridge design? I assume some kind of graphite compound that will be stronger than steel. As someone said, this bridge had its time and place, I certainly like it more than the one today. It would be cool to see something like this:
http://bridges.transportation.org/sites ... aware1.jpg