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PostSep 01, 2009#751

Matt,



I agree about narrowing Market, and we used to have a farmers Market Downtown like 100 years ago.



No arguments on removing garages.



But, you're saying that Skyhouse couldn't exist on the Gateway Mall today, as in when the economy gets better?



It could, but I disagree and do believe that some sort of convoluted reverse Montgomery Ward-like Gateway Mall fetish has evolved over the years and some neurosis compels our leadership to keep it underdeveloped under the guile that this attracts corporations and residents.



Otherwise we would have planners not arguing for dog runs and ***** beach volleyball courses, but saying "build sh*t here in 3-5 years." That's not in the Master Plan because that's not the outcome City Hall and the old crows want.
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PostNov 17, 2009#752

How has no one posted SPACE Architects' proposed putt-putt course for the Gateway Mall yet?



Here are the relevant Tweets:



This sounds to good to be true....but, we are working on a parcel of ground between Citygarden, & Union Station on an interesting concept.

A putt putt golf course...but wait, it get better. Way better. The holes will be designed in a collaboration between SPACE & local artists

It is still early, but a group of area sculptors will develop concepts that we will collaborate with them on overall design

SPACE will lead the overall design of the course, but we will give the artists lots of creative freedom.

RT @ennuisansmerde: @SPACEarchitects Can we hope for a Bevo Windmill? <actually>

We (SPACE) envision the course being a natural complement and extension of Citygarden, although on a smaller scale.

The client is still evaluating other sites, but we are strongly encouraging him to at least start with this site, and he has agreed.

We are approved to begin design services, which at first will be a rendering that gives City officials an idea how the course could look.

For this initial rendering, we have the added task of conjuring up designs for the sculptures as well as the course as a whole.

I have really had some crazy thoughts about the possibilities for this project ever since the last meeting.
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PostNov 18, 2009#753

Eh, not too sure how I feel about a putt-putt course. Don't get me wrong, putt-putt is cool and all, but I picture City Garden as kinda a more upscale family place. Putt-putt just has a cheap and corny vibe.
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PostNov 18, 2009#754

I think is sounds cool!
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PostNov 18, 2009#755

In my opinion, this sounds like something that would make City Museum even that much better and the Mall that much worse.



I would much rather see a fixed music venue at the corner of Tucker and Chestnut next. At least it would support or improve upon the various festival/downtown events that happen on the mall during the summer. If anything, lets find a way to compliment the city garden by doing something with the block west of 10th street.
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PostNov 18, 2009#756

Trust SPACE. They are awesome.
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PostNov 18, 2009#757

Hmmm...who knows...could be OK...maybe...in the right location...



Any other funky artsy-fartsy urban mini-golf courses out there that could give us an idea of what they're tallking about?
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PostNov 18, 2009#758

DeBaliviere wrote:Trust SPACE. They are awesome.
Sounds cool, but where's their portfolio and company vision?



Edit - It's here: http://www.space-stl.com/. They clearly have talent. Interested in seeing and hearing more from them...
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PostNov 18, 2009#759

Shimmy wrote:Eh, not too sure how I feel about a putt-putt course. Don't get me wrong, putt-putt is cool and all, but I picture City Garden as kinda a more upscale family place. Putt-putt just has a cheap and corny vibe.


I hear you, but keep in mind this won't be even adjacent to Citygarden. I think they just want to make sure it doesn't clash with Citygarden as they'll both be features on the Mall.



I'm a bit skeptical, but SPACE seems to be on their game. They designed BoBo, one of my favorite STL restaurants. It's done amazingly. They're super accessible--they Tweet 50 times a day. I'm tired and that's all the evidence I'lll present now, but you get the picture.
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PostNov 18, 2009#760

Didn't architects erect buildings, or are they now in the business of putt-putt and parking lots?



Horrible idea. How about we get some RESIDENTS on the Mall.



How about we abandon the entire concept of a Mall?
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PostNov 18, 2009#761

Doug wrote:Didn't architects erect buildings, or are they now in the business of putt-putt and parking lots?
Architects don't erect buildings. They design solutions.
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PostNov 18, 2009#762

What do you guys/gals want?



Buildings on the mall? Not going to happen...



Festivals? Already happens.



Citygarden is a huge success because it is cool and unique in our area. Imagine the families that will be downtown enjoying city garden, a sports game, and finally a putt putt match in downtown. Sounds like exactly what we all say we want. More things to do downtown, more options for families and people of all ages etc. This will be a draw and will actually bring life to those desolate parks. This will create activity and a sense of safety and will contribute to the downtown feel.



We can't get rid of the mall and we are not going to start building high rise towers if we can't even finance BPV, the Keil, Bottle DIstrict, etc.



Anyway, as usual something is proposed in STL and it is never any good. I for one if it is done well will enjoy a game or two on a nice summer STL evening. :D
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PostNov 18, 2009#763

Eh... Seems like a kitschy solution to draw folks in (on par with the awful ferris wheel idea).
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PostNov 18, 2009#764

Putt Putt will be hoosier central. (someone needs to say it since CS is no longer here...)
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PostNov 18, 2009#765

OOO YEAH Batting cages, go carts, and Putt Putt on the mall!!!



Why not? We could have a skate park for the xtreme kids and a frisbee golf course for all the stoners.
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PostNov 18, 2009#766

First things first. "Putt-putt" is a trademarked name. This will be a miniature golf course. Second, Moorlander, it's "disc golf course" and not "Frisbee". And I thought some of you were liberal hippies!?!? :shock:



Anyway, I'm not sure that the Gateway mall is the right place for this. My problem is that it will presumably cost money to play. City Garden is great because it's open and free to everyone. Anyone can enjoy any part of the park at basically any time. My one real complaint about Forest Park is the amount of land given over to paying visitors...
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PostNov 18, 2009#767

The cost is not the issue here.



We have enough parks -- and certainly miniature golf exists in suburbia.



The Mall will always fail until people live around and on it. The entire area happens to be single use office space. Nothing occurs around those blocks. We can program things all we want on the Mall, but that isn't real urbanism which actually attracts.
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PostNov 18, 2009#768

^ True.



It's the not the cost per se - that is, it's not that it's going to be expensive, it's that it is city parkland that a person must pay a fee (in addition) to taxes to use, removing free parkland from the public.
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PostNov 18, 2009#769

Not so quick on the free parkland judgment, the city just did it in Carondelet Park. How many tax payers will be able to afford the cost of the new Rex Plex even though it was funded by our own money?
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PostNov 18, 2009#770

^ I know. I can still make the argument can't I? The city does it a lot of places, I'm asking if it's the right choice for the Gateway Mall.
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PostNov 18, 2009#771

Just putting out there that Chicago's downtown has a mini-golf course adjacent to Millenium Park. Now, personally I was not that big of a fan of it - it seemed out of place to me. However, clearly this exists in other cities downtown showcase park areas.



So, I'm not sure they should be reserved only for suburban locations. As a city resident and parent, having a mini-golf course within the city limits would be nice.
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PostNov 18, 2009#772

I think its a bad idea. We should be creating density to attract twenty and thirty somethings.
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PostNov 19, 2009#773

Density, and building on the mall, is just not going to happen. That's just the cold hard truth. And even if someone did want to build there, you think that they would be stopped by a mini golf course? Density, and building up the mall is not the issue right now. I wish it was, but it's just not realistic.
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PostNov 19, 2009#774

While some of the above above criticisms of the project certainly hold merit and should be addressed, it's pretty clear that certain people never like anything...



The Gateway Mall isn't going anywhere. As such, adding art that can be engaged by the public in unique manner (i.e. mini-golf) holds a lot of promise... if done correctly. Luckily, Space is one of those firms that stands a good chance of doing it right... as their past work indicates.



Furthermore, although I can't point at any particular example, I don't think mini-golf is necessarily kitsch. And if this project is executed properly, we could be looking at St. Louis having the most unique, modern, and artistic mini-golf course on the planet (whatever that means). I say run with the idea and see where is goes.
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PostNov 19, 2009#775

Honestly, I think thay there is a lot more interesting locations downtown for miniature golf. Trying to put things in the mall for the sake of having things on the mall won't work in the long run. Second, miniature golf is all about entertainment. Trying to make it unique by emphasizing art doesn't change the business model or what it is. Just makes it more expensive to build which makes it a riskier business to sustain.



Instead, I would love to see some conceptual renderings for different themes for different areas.



For one, why not Laclede's Landing? It would be within easy walking distance of the proposed Ferris Wheel, the Arch Grounds, and casinos. On top of it, you are in the middle of an unique historical area with restaraunts and night life. The business model of minitature golf fits what is happening on the landing itself. Where's Joe Edwards!



Another thought, Why not take a gamble on the near north side? Build it at the rivertfront trailhead as a compliment to the new park and Trailnet's desired development or even incorporate in into the proposed greenway elvated/trestle trail.
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