urbanSTL

gone corporate wrote: ↑

Jul 14, 2021

Here's a thought... I'd bet that Fresh Thyme is a good candidate for this site. Reasoning: They're opening their first City site at City Foundry this November, maybe 3 miles up Forest Park Parkway from Expo. It would benefit both locations to have another in relatively close proximity, from establishing brand awareness to ease of transferring inventory to and between sites. 

I think that makes the most sense...store size & logistics.

gone corporate wrote: ↑

Jul 14, 2021

Here's a thought... I'd bet that Fresh Thyme is a good candidate for this site. Reasoning: They're opening their first City site at City Foundry this November, maybe 3 miles up Forest Park Parkway from Expo. It would benefit both locations to have another in relatively close proximity, from establishing brand awareness to ease of transferring inventory to and between sites. 

The retail space is too small.  Fresh Thyme's new stores are in the 25,000-30,000sf range and, unlike many grocers, consistency in layout and product selection from store to store seems to be a highlight of their current business model.  For example, their grand opening press releases highlight that half of their stores' footprints are dedicated to fresh produce.  That requires a fairly large space to have that much produce and still squeeze in everything else a full-service store offers.

The only variant seems to be an attached but separate liquor store, such as their Prospect Park location next to the University of Minnesota campus (which probably has something to do with it).

I think it's more likely an Aldi or Save a Lot. Regarding Aldi, the one on Delmar has yet to be remodeled into the newest format which makes me wonder if they are thinking of replacing it. 

southcitygent wrote:I think it's more likely an Aldi or Save a Lot. Regarding Aldi, the one on Delmar has yet to be remodeled into the newest format which makes me wonder if they are thinking of replacing it. 

I’d be cool with whatever gets me a walking distance full service grocer with reasonable prices.


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My last drone update here on the forum for a long while brings me to the Expo at Forest Park. A truly transformational project that helps link two neighborhoods. The north building has one more floor left to go till its topped out while the south building sees framing for the 4th of 6 floors going up on the western side.

A fly around/through video can be found on the "Chris Stritzel's Drone" thread. 

^^Chris, those drone shots are great even just for the transit infrastructure passing through them. The Metrolink junction is darned pretty. And the trolley just makes it even better. (And the buildings are kind of cool too.)

^Quincunx, that really brings out how great this will look from DeBaliviere. 

That should all be pretty darn happening. Looking forward to seeing these in service.

^This project sure is moving slowly.  Not even one whole floor in almost 5 weeks?

The drone shots are helpful in watching the progress each week at a good timely rate of construction. Iwould not be surprised if the wannabe high end HOK designed Expo building procure a deal with Whole Foods, or best yet, a Schnucks Culinaria.!  Save a Lot is cheap. But overall the massive 3 pronged attack vie construction shows nothing of the massive disruption of the already 100's of residents in this denest area of the city!! Pershing Ave. has lost its main bus that is a life line for myself and many older adults and students who cannot walk the 15 blocks down to the damn train. TOD??? HOW?..Unless u rent above the pit MetroLink Station transfer center at Forest Park which needs new streps, elevators, and a better platform. However, after the long hassle of the CWE reconstruct makes it a put off. The Hudson has caused the most disruption, blocking the Pershing and Debaliviere intersection! A major thoroughfare, for buses, and all traffic. They need to hurry the F*UP!!!...Their crappy 3rd building on my street is overdue and must CLEAR the DAMN WAY!!! NO Shuttles have been offered to anyone who depend on the #1 BUS. FINISH UP. NOW!!! LUX LIVING my ASS!!
  i  can only imagine the absolute chaos and mega disruption at Lindell and Taylor.!! Which has 2 buses, and many residents on and off busy as heck Lindell...Have fun with that one spot. I am sure it will throw off a bus I take sometimes to the CWE station.!!

damon9863 wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2021

The drone shots are helpful in watching the progress each week at a good timely rate of construction. Iwould not be surprised if the wannabe high end HOK designed Expo building procure a deal with Whole Foods, or best yet, a Schnucks Culinaria.!  Save a Lot is cheap. But overall the massive 3 pronged attack vie construction shows nothing of the massive disruption of the already 100's of residents in this denest area of the city!! Pershing Ave. has lost its main bus that is a life line for myself and many older adults and students who cannot walk the 15 blocks down to the damn train. TOD??? HOW?..Unless u rent above the pit MetroLink Station transfer center at Forest Park which needs new streps, elevators, and a better platform. However, after the long hassle of the CWE reconstruct makes it a put off. The Hudson has caused the most disruption, blocking the Pershing and Debaliviere intersection! A major thoroughfare, for buses, and all traffic. They need to hurry the F*UP!!!...Their crappy 3rd building on my street is overdue and must CLEAR the DAMN WAY!!! NO Shuttles have been offered to anyone who depend on the #1 BUS. FINISH UP. NOW!!! LUX LIVING my ASS!!
  i  can only imagine the absolute chaos and mega disruption at Lindell and Taylor.!! Which has 2 buses, and many residents on and off busy as heck Lindell...Have fun with that one spot. I am sure it will throw off a bus I take sometimes to the CWE station.!!

You must be exhausted.

Construction halted. Heard from two people that banks wont lend money to finish the project. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, so take that as a grain of salt. Another rumor is that construction is paused because of a coronavirus outbreak on site. Again, take that as a grain of salt. Both seem like pie in the sky, but I can also see how they're true.

^ Trying understand the two possibilities, 

On construction financing it is usually funding for full construction and really a bridge loan to full mortgage from my understanding..  Why any construction finance would be partial doesn't make sense.  What does make sense is if they low balled the material cost only to get hammered on increased lumber prices, so on.   So I can see major overruns putting the developer/contractor in a cashflow bind.  But then you wonder why not focus material buys and constructions on at least one of the two buildings and literally make it a phase project..  

The other is very plausible from my perspective.   Been dealing with return of positive covid tests with our own crews but it hasn't shut any of our projects down.  We had at least one project shutdown during first surge and believe two project shutdowns between our construction and marine group during the winter surge with at least one lasting a solid three weeks.  In addition, while our office crowd has a very high vaccination rate our mostly union crews on the ground is literally fifty fifty and wouldn't doubt that is the norm industry wide.   A legit outbreak between a couple trades could make a big project requiring a sequence of work to happen.  If you don't have any carpenters or laborers working don't expect much else happen looking at the stage of work.  Maybe some interior on the first floor or two  but then the prudent is maybe just pause  

dredger wrote: ↑

Aug 23, 2021

^ Trying understand the two possibilities, 

On construction financing it is usually funding for full construction and really a bridge loan to full mortgage from my understanding..  Why any construction finance would be partial doesn't make sense.  What does make sense is if they low balled the material cost only to get hammered on increased lumber prices, so on.   So I can see major overruns putting the developer/contractor in a cashflow bind.  But then you wonder why not focus material buys and constructions on at least one of the two buildings and literally make it a phase project..  

If they blew their budget, which could happen for a variety of reasons, they have to go back to their lender, hat in hand.  That lender can always say, "Nope".  And others aren't going to be enthusiastic about lending millions knowing they will be at the back of the line if they need to collect.

Also, the two buildings likely have two separate financing packages.  They can't delay one for the sake of the other unless their lender/investors agree.

^ another thought, who knows except the parties themselves on how the contract was negotiated & who might be on the hook for material cost changes between developer and contractor..    Most of my projects are firm fixed pricing but mostly equipment and labor so not subject to big swing in material supply let alone costs.  Once in a while fuel prices come back and bite us if time of work is several months after bidding/pricing,.   

Heck for all know they might be just waiting on supply to catch up with things.   Which might be explained as a Covid issue as well. 

Even with cost overruns, don’t really understand the logic of refusing financing on a half finished development during a housing boom in one of the better locations in the region.


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If I recall, the Dogtown apartment by the same developer also hit delays and had multiple rumors of financing or material issues before being finished. Construction felt like it never ended.

addxb2 wrote:If I recall, the Dogtown apartment by the same developer also hit delays and had multiple rumors of financing or material issues before being finished. Construction felt like it never ended.

After seeing how Hibernia turned out and now seeing this development hit some of the same roadblocks, I have concerns.


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SeattleNative wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2021

addxb2 wrote:If I recall, the Dogtown apartment by the same developer also hit delays and had multiple rumors of financing or material issues before being finished. Construction felt like it never ended.

After seeing how Hibernia turned out and now seeing this development hit some of the same roadblocks, I have concerns.

If by any chance Expo goes south, it should be mentioned that Jeff Tegethoff, the developer, is a Partner at Clayco CRG. So they, being CRG, could take over this if need be. Hibernia's problems stemmed from the contractor, Raineri, which is notorious for change orders and undervaluing their bid work on purpose.

SeattleNative wrote: ↑

Aug 23, 2021

Even with cost overruns, don’t really understand the logic of refusing financing on a half finished development during a housing boom in one of the better locations in the region.

A housing boom which could end suddenly at any time...which is why the bank is only going to look at the project pro forma and not try to divine economists' tea leaves.

As for "the logic", that would depend on the amount of the cost overrun, wouldn't it?  On a project like this, it wouldn't take much of an overrun to take an ROI range from good to unacceptable.  And there are many reasons a bank might refuse additional financing, some of which have nothing to do with apartment and retail demand estimates.  For that matter, they wouldn't even have to refuse, in order to stall a project.  They may say sure, we'll loan you an extra ten million, but you're going to pay more for our increased risk...

Seems like something the $200,000,000 Greater STL inc real estate fund could step in to close the gap

damon9863 wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2021

Pershing Ave. has lost its main bus that is a life line for myself and many older adults and students who cannot walk the 15 blocks down to the damn train. TOD??? HOW?..Unless u rent above the pit MetroLink Station transfer center at Forest Park which needs new streps, elevators, and a better platform. However, after the long hassle of the CWE reconstruct makes it a put off. The Hudson has caused the most disruption, blocking the Pershing and Debaliviere intersection! A major thoroughfare, for buses, and all traffic. They need to hurry the F*UP!!!...Their crappy 3rd building on my street is overdue and must CLEAR the DAMN WAY!!! NO Shuttles have been offered to anyone who depend on the #1 BUS. FINISH UP. NOW!!! LUX LIVING my ASS!!

If Waterman were open at DeBaliviere the reroute would have been much less disruptive. The same thing happened when Pershing was closed for the trolley construction, albeit for a shorter time. We never learn.
NextSTL - What Should Be: Open Waterman Boulevard At DeBaliviere Avenue
https://nextstl.com/2016/10/waterman-open-debaliviere/

Heard a bad rumor about this project (not related to the already bad news of the stoppage). Starting to lose some confidence that this is going to be delivered as promised.


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