urbanSTL

This has turned out to be one of the more childish threads I have seen on here. Funny? yes. Insightful? No. ( I am more or less talking about the last two pages)

There was a little bit of back and forth but you really should read this - http://www.mc4be.com/STL_Intergovt_Report.pdf

This feasibility study was conducted at the joint request of the City and County. It is very "feel good" in that it doesn't factor in the political aspect of these initiatives, but MAN if the region could implement half of these suggestions....

ttricamo wrote:There was a little bit of back and forth but you really should read this - http://www.mc4be.com/STL_Intergovt_Report.pdf

This feasibility study was conducted at the joint request of the City and County. It is very "feel good" in that it doesn't factor in the political aspect of these initiatives, but MAN if the region could implement half of these suggestions....

The Post's article on the matter... http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 40f99.html

I can't say I'm real happy that you are suggesting that I voted for Prop E because I'm taking a kickback.

Alex Ihnen wrote:increased property taxes etc. could very well shift an increasing burden to city residents.

Interesting you brought this up. Care to share your property tax over in FPSE? On the Hill, for a modest shotgun style rental property, our property tax is roughly $1100. I would be interested to know what someone in a "developing" area pays on property tax on a much larger home. For larger homes in developing neighborhoods, is property tax valuation fair and reasonable? Should it be adjusted upward?

I would definitely be in favor of City property owners carrying more of a tax burden in order to eliminate the earnings tax, myself included.

Any math wizzes here? Or people with time to do calculations? I would think the necessary increase in property taxes and sales tax would prove to be more of a negative to the city than 1% earnings tax. Your average homeowner would probably fork out more in property taxes than what they pay in etax every year. I don't know for sure though.

Alex Ihnen wrote:So let's play this out. If the earnings tax was eliminated let's say my family would save $500. But what if my home wasn't tax abated? That would be a $700+ increase in taxes, making the city a less affordable place to live. More likely, some will advocate for measures that would put my property tax at $1,500+. Then, the home in U-City or Richmond Heights with a property tax of $3,200 looks better and better and we're more likely to leave the city.

^ Congratulations - you've just proved why St. Louis shouldn't have the earnings tax. In your last paragraph, substitute "my family/my home" for "a business", "property tax" for a "earnings tax", and "Richmond Heights" for "Clayton".

Also, I love that when we're "playing this out" you never make the point that you would be willing to pay higher taxes in the City because you like living the "in the City" (remember all the feel-good stuff about living next to mass transit, cool stores, and historic architecture?).

A few thoughts:

1: Property tax abatements don't last forever. My house recently came off abatement and our tax bill jumped six-fold. The city is abating residential property far less than it used to, and a lot of the ten-year abatements issued in the early 2000's are starting to come off the rolls, which will generate a good chunk of new tax revenue.

2: But it won't be nearly enough to offset the earnings tax. That's because most of your property tax bill, like two-thirds of it if I recall, goes to the schools. In this year's $451 million budget, City Hall only gets $53.2 million from property taxes. Getting another $137.5 million (the money raised through earnings taxes) would require nearly tripling property taxes.

3: Even putting aside the Hancock Amendment, this would be political suicide. Try telling retirees (who don't pay earnings taxes) that their property tax bill is going to soar. Try it. I dare you.

4: And the more you raise property taxes, the more you hurt property values. Most city neighborhoods are already fairly weak housing markets. Hiking taxes - relative to what you might pay in the county or Illinois or wherever - is only going to make them weaker. So not only am I paying higher taxes, and receiving less services, but the value of my most important asset is falling. Why would I support this again?

If you really think the earnings tax is such a drag on the city (itself a big if), higher property taxes are a piece of the solution. But there are going to have to be lots of other pieces, or it just won't fly.

Key points in regards to my position on removal of the earnings tax (very high-level).

1) I fully support paying taxes, so long as they're used efficiently and for the long term growth of the region.

2) Removing the earnings tax would have been a change-agent, a catalyst. The near-term pain of removing the earnings tax, i feel, is trumped by the long-term, compounding benefits of not having an earnings tax.
Those benefits are:
a - real or perceived benefit to doing business in the city (more businesses move into the city, tax base is expanded, etc.)
b - the ten-year, spoon-fed, PHASED OUT, reduction in tax revenues would force City Hall to operate more efficiently.
c - items 1&2 begin to create a value proposition for the City to merge with County.

3) Property Tax is not a red herring. Property Tax policy (along with everything else) would have to be reformed once the earnings tax goes away.

Sen Schaefer prefiled a bill to end the earnings tax in KC and STL. I doubt the Gov would sign it.

http://www.senate.mo.gov/16info/BTS_Web ... D=22246556

Regardless it'll be on the ballot again next year.

quincunx wrote:Sen Schaefer prefiled a bill to end the earnings tax in KC and STL. I doubt the Gov would sign it.

http://www.senate.mo.gov/16info/BTS_Web ... D=22246556

Regardless it'll be on the ballot again next year.

Typical Missouri Republican. Beat up on the Urban areas right to self govern while claiming to be for "Small government". Meanwhile St. Louis City, St. Louis County, and Jackson County pay over half of State income and sales tax.

Where's his bill to eliminate STATE income or sales taxes?

Is a land tax permissible under current MO statute and constitution?

We've already seen a lot of property abandoned under the current system. What effect would it have on that?

OK, so what does the city do if MOLeg or city voters (not likely) gets rid of the earnings tax?

The funding solutions St. Louis County munis have come up with seem worse to me. Chasing sales taxes and traffic tickets. And its lack of an earnings tax hasn't deterred people, jobs, and wealth from leaving it either.