Good news. If you figure an average of 2 people per unit, the 2.91 sq miles of downtown will have about 16000-18000, or more residents in about 2 years or so.
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do you know how many, or what proportion are going to be rentable apartments perchance? It seems with the new metrolink stations opening up at Wash U and Clayton there could be a new group of people who could very easily reverse commute.
I know everyone on this forum is very positive over downtown. St. Louis should be pleased with all the developments in the past 5 years. The Downtown St. louis Housing Report shows that from 2000-2005 appx. 1,500 units were added.
The Downtown St. Louis Partnership also shows the downtown population to be 9,610 as of 2004, also a great number.
Here is my problem. The 2000 census shows the total downtown and downtown west population to be 3,000. Now, there is no way to get from 3000 to 9610 with only 1,500 new units. The obvious answer is that the Downtown St. Louis Partnership uses additional areas, such as Columbus Square or Carr Square when caulculating the 9000 people.
I have a problem with this because i think it miss represents the number of people living in what most people would think of as the downtown neighborhood, (The river to jefferson and Chouteau to Carr). My guess is that the number of people living 'downtown' would be aroud 5,000, which is a big improvement from 3000, but it is a far cry from 9000.
The Downtown St. Louis Partnership also shows the downtown population to be 9,610 as of 2004, also a great number.
Here is my problem. The 2000 census shows the total downtown and downtown west population to be 3,000. Now, there is no way to get from 3000 to 9610 with only 1,500 new units. The obvious answer is that the Downtown St. Louis Partnership uses additional areas, such as Columbus Square or Carr Square when caulculating the 9000 people.
I have a problem with this because i think it miss represents the number of people living in what most people would think of as the downtown neighborhood, (The river to jefferson and Chouteau to Carr). My guess is that the number of people living 'downtown' would be aroud 5,000, which is a big improvement from 3000, but it is a far cry from 9000.
Don't know. I would believe the 9000 number, but is it maybe less? Maybe. Unless we actually go out and count all the people living in a specific spot, we won't know. So my answer- I don't know, but I prefer to use the 9000-10000 number.
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Lofts aren't the only housing being built downtown
By Tavia Evans
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
11/02/2005
The market for housing in downtown St. Louis is becoming more diverse, offering high-end condominiums, townhouses and finished lofts along with traditional open loft spaces.
Pent-up demand is driving the market, said Jim Cloar, president of Downtown St. Louis Partnership, a nonprofit organization that focuses on improving downtown.
About 9,700 residents live downtown now, he said, and by 2008 that number is expected to bloom to almost 15,000. And they're not just young and single urban dwellers anymore.
Downtown developers are building varied products to meet demand - especially from a growing segment of empty nesters who want less house and upkeep and are interested in a more finished look.
That's part of the idea behind the loft corridor's newest entry, the Ely Walker Lofts at 1520 Washington Avenue. The 365,000-square-foot building is to have 173 lofts with carpeting in some rooms and more plastered and painted interior walls.
Read More
By Tavia Evans
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
11/02/2005
The market for housing in downtown St. Louis is becoming more diverse, offering high-end condominiums, townhouses and finished lofts along with traditional open loft spaces.
Pent-up demand is driving the market, said Jim Cloar, president of Downtown St. Louis Partnership, a nonprofit organization that focuses on improving downtown.
About 9,700 residents live downtown now, he said, and by 2008 that number is expected to bloom to almost 15,000. And they're not just young and single urban dwellers anymore.
Downtown developers are building varied products to meet demand - especially from a growing segment of empty nesters who want less house and upkeep and are interested in a more finished look.
That's part of the idea behind the loft corridor's newest entry, the Ely Walker Lofts at 1520 Washington Avenue. The 365,000-square-foot building is to have 173 lofts with carpeting in some rooms and more plastered and painted interior walls.
Read More
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I am crossing my fingers that 2010 will back Cloar's oft-cited numbers. I really hope this residential demand downtown fills up new towers like that of Ballpark Village and the Bottle District (and any other site available for new construction--Gateway Mall anyone?).
I am pessimistic that 2010 will back Cloar's number because his numbers take in much more than what most people would deffine as downtown. You might be right though, by 2010, the actual downtonw population might be 9,000.
I have a feeling that no matter how many residential units the Ballpark Village puts in it's area, they will fill up.
Someone mentioned the rebuilding of townhomes in the Eugene Field block. I wonder how long it will be before someone does build single-family townhomes? Because of the price of land in the DT area, these would have to be like the infill examples in Chicago--upscale, million dollar units.
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I am pessimistic that 2010 will back Cloar's number because his numbers take in much more than what most people would deffine as downtown. You might be right though, by 2010, the actual downtonw population might be 9,000.
Actually; 9700 is the total living downtown when tallied by the RCGA in 2003.
Today there are probably many more. This number is totalled by the Downtown Partnership and RCGA in using the Downtown boundaries of:
Tucker/Jefferson to the west.
Cole to the north.
I-64 to the South.
The Mississippi River to the east.
Small boundaries for downtown if you ask me.
As always, I am somewhat skeptical of the Downtown St. Louis Parternships populaiton numbers, but for those who want to see a comprehensive list of the residential development in downtown the following link has it all. Downtown St. Louis
Many are intersting, but I found the numbers in the excel file under the link "Downtown Housing Inventory" to be the most interesting. While I have not made it all the way through here are a few intersting tidbits:
the Union Pacific building may have a new residential tower as part of it with 48 units. Looks like 1,232 units in development and 1,800 under construction.
Check it out for yourself.
Many are intersting, but I found the numbers in the excel file under the link "Downtown Housing Inventory" to be the most interesting. While I have not made it all the way through here are a few intersting tidbits:
the Union Pacific building may have a new residential tower as part of it with 48 units. Looks like 1,232 units in development and 1,800 under construction.
Check it out for yourself.
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I am skeptical about the population and amount of primary resident downtown. I was speaking with a realtor about a month ago and he claims that 70-80% of the lofts selling on Wash Ave are investments which the owner will soon flip and never live in as their primary. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
Mill204 wrote:Well, afterall, 79% of all statistics are made up.
WRONG!
It is 72%
Numbers are all booster fodder, the increased life on the street is the convincer, and I am seeing more.
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Yeah, I'd say don't listen to another thing that realtor says. If that were anywhere close to being true, wouldn't there be a hell of alot more resales on the market currently. I mean seriously, there's way less than 100 resales on realtor.com out of thousands of units.Downtown2007 wrote:I am skeptical about the population and amount of primary resident downtown. I was speaking with a realtor about a month ago and he claims that 70-80% of the lofts selling on Wash Ave are investments which the owner will soon flip and never live in as their primary. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
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Plus I think most developers are doing what they can to keep the speculation to a minimum. I know that The Meridian had intended to keep it below 25% and they feel they are well below that currently. I don't know figures on other developments but each one that I looked into had some penalty or bar against reservers they felt were speculators. (Charging a higher amount to reserve, etc.) Obviously no one really can tell until it comes time for you to move in or sell but I feel really safe in agreeing that the numbers listed above are way off.
If it were true then I hope the buyers are truthful on their mortgage applications and answering that the home is not the primary residence and they do not intend to occupy the unit. If so, the Realtor may be obligated to report the speculation as mortgage fraud.
Lets move this topic back to the subject. Anyway I encourage all of you to look at the site I posted and the numbers it contains. I want to see if you all notice any other tidbits of info that I missed.
A few more I noticed:
The site gives info on possible staging of the Ballpark Village and the unit distribution throughout the site. Looks like Phase 1 wil be one highrise condo tower and some lowlever structures with maybe residential over them, looks like 275 units for the tower and 125 apartments. Looks like this is the tower along Clark. Phase two would incudle another tower with 275 units and this is the proposed tower at the corner of Broadway and Clark. Phase 3 calls for a third tower of 250 units, but wouldn't be done till 2012
Phasing for the Bottle District:
Looks like phase might include a highrise and midrise condo tower of 450 total units and some low rise and mixed use buildings, with 800 units between all the towers and the other units.
A few more I noticed:
The site gives info on possible staging of the Ballpark Village and the unit distribution throughout the site. Looks like Phase 1 wil be one highrise condo tower and some lowlever structures with maybe residential over them, looks like 275 units for the tower and 125 apartments. Looks like this is the tower along Clark. Phase two would incudle another tower with 275 units and this is the proposed tower at the corner of Broadway and Clark. Phase 3 calls for a third tower of 250 units, but wouldn't be done till 2012
Phasing for the Bottle District:
Looks like phase might include a highrise and midrise condo tower of 450 total units and some low rise and mixed use buildings, with 800 units between all the towers and the other units.
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Downtown2007 wrote:I am skeptical about the population and amount of primary resident downtown. I was speaking with a realtor about a month ago and he claims that 70-80% of the lofts selling on Wash Ave are investments which the owner will soon flip and never live in as their primary. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
So? If there are 100 units, and each unit will be occupied by 2 people, we have a population increase of 200 people. Even if all 100 units have been bought by flippers, and even if they get flipped 6 times, when all the smoke clears, and the flipping is done, at some point, 200 people will actually live there.
I don't know what point that guy was trying to make, but it wasn't a very well thought out one.
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Honestly, i believe in most of those stats. With the new rejuvination of downtown there is going to be a lot of expansion of numbers.
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Downtown2007 wrote:I am skeptical about the population and amount of primary resident downtown. I was speaking with a realtor about a month ago and he claims that 70-80% of the lofts selling on Wash Ave are investments which the owner will soon flip and never live in as their primary. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
So? If there are 100 units, and each unit will be occupied by 2 people, we have a population increase of 200 people. Even if all 100 units have been bought by flippers, and even if they get flipped 6 times, when all the smoke clears, and the flipping is done, at some point, 200 people will actually live there.
I don't know what point that guy was trying to make, but it wasn't a very well thought out one.
Clearly this guy doesn't know anything about economics. A high amount of flippers in the market would indicate that the units are underpriced because people are willing to pay more for them = higher demand.
An interesting read. A lot of discussion regarding the amount of residential (both for sale and rental) coming on line over the next several years, absorption rates, and competition.
http://www.downtownstl.org/docs/FullHousingReport06.pdf
http://www.downtownstl.org/docs/FullHousingReport06.pdf