Me too but I think this is the reason they switched trolley cars. The ones they will use now seem to be longer and higher capacity than the Portland, OR cars with probably a wider turning radius which would not work around the U city round-a-bout.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
I was also disappointed to find that the trolley doesn't actually loop around by City Hall or the History Museum, I always thought that aspect of the project was cool.
^^Yes; much improved. Big new windows have really opened it up and given it some life. Looks like some architectural details have been restored too.
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St. Louis Public Radio is reporting that there has been a delay in getting the trolley cars on site. They were expected in November but won't arrive until mid-February. Joe Edwards says the project remains on track despite this.
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/loo ... k#stream/0
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/loo ... k#stream/0
^Hopefully they at least get it up and running by Labor Day, so we can see what its potential is during the Loop's busy summer months.
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I just hoping it actually gets up and running at any time. I'm taking a very "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude toward the trolley these days.
Before Memorial day would be nice but at this point there is probably another issue they aren't telling people about
I get the reservations people have, but folk should understand that this trolley was basically bootstrapped. It didn't get a lot of federal dollars like some of the other new lines recently completed and currently under construction.
I personally think this is going to be a fine line when it gets going.
Little-by-little and inch-by-inch, we are almost there.
I can wait a little longer - even though I am anxious too.
From yesterday (02/01/17): via Twitter.
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I personally think this is going to be a fine line when it gets going.
Little-by-little and inch-by-inch, we are almost there.
I can wait a little longer - even though I am anxious too.
From yesterday (02/01/17): via Twitter.
Yeah, but it took some cities even longer - just to get their first line.
- 11K
Hmmm... I don't think that's correct if one counts from the federal award, start of construction, then through to operation. This project here has been a mess for years. Have other cities seen a similar process in executing an approved and funded line?
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^ Cincy Streetcar had some big hurdles overcoming an attack from first the Gov. and then by a new mayor, but I don't believe even that took as long.
Washington D.C.'s was by far the worst. D.C. Transit funding is extremely complicated though. And their biggest issue was having to adapt two vehicles they bought from another shuttered streetcar project.
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Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
In fairness to Loop Trolley I believe most streetcar lines built have been through local transit agency or establish local transportation entities with experience and shared resources at their disposal. I can only assume that being independent and separate from Bi State Development Agency (Metro) made a hug difference from finalizing the grant (actually getting the money in hand), to planning to the necessary preliminary & final engineering not to mention construction procurement behind the project. It didn't help that the Loop Trolley thought a one price for everything was going to give them a cheaper price only to have bids come in way above the Engineers Estimate.
To me the biggest hurdle is yet to come and that is ridership once it is running. I think of Ybor trolley in Tampa when it first started running between the cruise terminal believe and Ybor city. The trolleys always seemed empty when I was in town for work (Tampa's Port/shipyards not too far from Ybor City) as it seemed to cater to tourists/entertainment establishments as Loop is betting on. However, believe they have extended Tampa's Ybor City trolley/streetcar to incorporate more of downtown & the residential development that has taken place. At some point I see the loop trolley having to find a way to either extend to CWE to further promote Delmar East/Residential Development and or Clayton CBD
I'm also wondering if KC's model of no fare is a better way to go for Loop Trolley. Not sure if they could make it work with expected tax revenues supporting it.
To me the biggest hurdle is yet to come and that is ridership once it is running. I think of Ybor trolley in Tampa when it first started running between the cruise terminal believe and Ybor city. The trolleys always seemed empty when I was in town for work (Tampa's Port/shipyards not too far from Ybor City) as it seemed to cater to tourists/entertainment establishments as Loop is betting on. However, believe they have extended Tampa's Ybor City trolley/streetcar to incorporate more of downtown & the residential development that has taken place. At some point I see the loop trolley having to find a way to either extend to CWE to further promote Delmar East/Residential Development and or Clayton CBD
I'm also wondering if KC's model of no fare is a better way to go for Loop Trolley. Not sure if they could make it work with expected tax revenues supporting it.
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True. It doesn't really connect anything... even it's station next to Union Station is in the middle of the road on the back side that you essentially have to walk through parking garages to get to. That said, development along that street car line has exploded. H St. corridor is much better for it being there.
Put in that context, true. But like I said, Loop Trolley had to do more bootstrapping - meaning that it had to gather additional funding from internal and alternative sources - including St. Louis County to make it come to fruition and be viable. Loop Trolley even had to barter vintage cars from Portland and Seattle. This is why it has taken so long - the bootstrapping. They were piecing together funding and infrastructure to make this thing work. One lump sum of $25-million was awarded to the Loop project by the feds. It was only 50% of the project's cost. And in my opinion, Joe did underestimate the cost, but what is manifesting now seems okay with me.Alex Ihnen wrote: ↑Feb 02, 2017Hmmm... I don't think that's correct if one counts from the federal award, start of construction, then through to operation. This project here has been a mess for years. Have other cities seen a similar process in executing an approved and funded line?
Other cities also had their major local transit authorities/companies working in the mix supporting their new lines. Loop Trolley and Joe Edwards had to practically beg for local assistance and expertise in helping to get this thing done when they got stuck.Other funding sources include federal Congestion Mitigation & Air Quality Improvement Program (CMAQ) and Surface Transportation Program (STP) grants; proceeds from the Loop Trolley Transportation Development District; TIF and New Market Tax Credits; and donations. Funding for this project also is provided by Great Rivers Greenway District. Source
I'm not saying - by any stretch - that the Loop Trolley's development has been a perfect process. And mind you, I had been fairly critical at times. However, I like what I am seeing so far - and all of this so far has been done with just a few local tax dollars. I can't wait to take a ride. I want it to be a success.
By the way, Detroit, Kansas City, Cincinnati and others had planned and desired new streetcar lines for years - just like Joe's Loop Trolley - and now they have come to fruition FINALLY.
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My concern with the Loop Trolley is not really how long it's taken, but the fact that I don't think they've been truthful in their communications. Everything they say is spun to be as positive as possible if not outright misleading. This was especially frustrating when it came to their construction updates. So, while I was initially a big fan of the Loop Trolley, I've come not to trust those who are running it.
- 11K
"it had to gather additional funding from internal and alternative sources - including St. Louis County to make it come to fruition and be viable."
Why is that? And we're all aware that we're on set three of the street cars, right? The first one's were just for show - but hoped to use. The second were acquired and then wouldn't work, so a third set have been acquired. This isn't simply a case of a difficult project taking time to put together. It's been overpromised and mismanaged. Every deadline has been missed since 2012. Still, as of two months ago, the latest deadline was missed. There's a reason people don't believe that this will be managed well even once it's operational.
Analogies to other streetcars miss the point for a couple reasons. The Loop Trolley is a one-man show, approved, greenlighted and support by any entity that mattered. Nothing stood in their way other than executed the project. It's also a more simple project than the others mentioned...and of course it's not a transportation solution, as are the others mentioned.
Why is that? And we're all aware that we're on set three of the street cars, right? The first one's were just for show - but hoped to use. The second were acquired and then wouldn't work, so a third set have been acquired. This isn't simply a case of a difficult project taking time to put together. It's been overpromised and mismanaged. Every deadline has been missed since 2012. Still, as of two months ago, the latest deadline was missed. There's a reason people don't believe that this will be managed well even once it's operational.
Analogies to other streetcars miss the point for a couple reasons. The Loop Trolley is a one-man show, approved, greenlighted and support by any entity that mattered. Nothing stood in their way other than executed the project. It's also a more simple project than the others mentioned...and of course it's not a transportation solution, as are the others mentioned.
Alex, I understand that you and others have had issues with this project for a while now. And I realize not everyone will be on the same page. Keep in mind that at one time I had complaints too. But now I am a convert.
Yes, it has felt - at times - like a "train wreck" and "a slow crawl" for a good portion of its construction. I agree.
And yes, Joe and his assembled team had a bigger learning curve. In fairness, how long has it been since a streetcar entity operated in the Delmar Loop - let alone St. Louis? I am not going to blame, belittle, bully or badger Joe nor any of the participating entities for attempting to restore streetcars in the Delmar Loop and St. Louis. I won't. I had to come around. They were only trying to make St. Louis a more interesting place to visit and live.
This project has ALWAYS been the goal of one man - so no surprise there whatsoever. Yet, there were funding entities, politicians and USDOT who signed on because THEY obviously believed in its necessity, possibilities and viability.
Further, I know of problems KC's faced. I know of problems Cincy's faced. I know of problems that DC's, Atlanta's and Houston's all faced. I know of problems Detroit's faced. Visit the links. I also don't believe this project was simplier than the others as it faced some of the same problems as the others. Problems are problems regardless of when or where they arose. Loop Trolley is no different.
With that said, I don't think this 2.2-mile line was ever intended to be a "major" transportation solution for the region or St. Louis City/U City even. A vintage tourist trolley for one of St. Louis' busiest commercial districts is not a problem for me. I've ridden on fixed tourist trolleys in New Orleans (The Riverfront Line) and Memphis. The trolley will make the district more interesting while offering some connectivity near MetroLink stations.
Truth of the matter is, despite numerous hiccups along the way, those who desire to ride the Loop Trolley will be able to do so pretty soon. At the end of the day, it is almost completed. While St. Louis also pisses me off with some of its development trends, I want the trolley to succeed.
Yes, it has felt - at times - like a "train wreck" and "a slow crawl" for a good portion of its construction. I agree.
And yes, Joe and his assembled team had a bigger learning curve. In fairness, how long has it been since a streetcar entity operated in the Delmar Loop - let alone St. Louis? I am not going to blame, belittle, bully or badger Joe nor any of the participating entities for attempting to restore streetcars in the Delmar Loop and St. Louis. I won't. I had to come around. They were only trying to make St. Louis a more interesting place to visit and live.
This project has ALWAYS been the goal of one man - so no surprise there whatsoever. Yet, there were funding entities, politicians and USDOT who signed on because THEY obviously believed in its necessity, possibilities and viability.
Further, I know of problems KC's faced. I know of problems Cincy's faced. I know of problems that DC's, Atlanta's and Houston's all faced. I know of problems Detroit's faced. Visit the links. I also don't believe this project was simplier than the others as it faced some of the same problems as the others. Problems are problems regardless of when or where they arose. Loop Trolley is no different.
With that said, I don't think this 2.2-mile line was ever intended to be a "major" transportation solution for the region or St. Louis City/U City even. A vintage tourist trolley for one of St. Louis' busiest commercial districts is not a problem for me. I've ridden on fixed tourist trolleys in New Orleans (The Riverfront Line) and Memphis. The trolley will make the district more interesting while offering some connectivity near MetroLink stations.
Truth of the matter is, despite numerous hiccups along the way, those who desire to ride the Loop Trolley will be able to do so pretty soon. At the end of the day, it is almost completed. While St. Louis also pisses me off with some of its development trends, I want the trolley to succeed.
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Maybe it isn't fair to project construction issues onto future operations, but the challenge I see for the trolley is figuring out what success looks like for them. For instance, will they be going back to taxpayers for additional funds in the future on top of the TDD that has been funneling money to them for a decade? Hard to even speculate about that since they've yet to share their pricing model with the community.
I get your point on giving them some leeway a this is their first rodeo. And I really tried to do so initially. But it's hard to trust people who have lied to me. Case in point: at a pre-construction open house I was told by a trolley rep that the DeBaliviere bridge would only be closed for "the summer". Then the first act of their construction project was to close the bridge for six months. Reaching out to them has typically only resulted in being told to subscribe to their weekly email construction updates, which have been intermittent and incomplete. For example, their construction emails promised a 10-day closing of Pershing at DeBaliviere at one point. The road was instead closed for nearly 30 days and no construction updates were sent out during the entirety of the closure.
It's entirely possible that my experience with them is unique. I certainly hope so. But I remain skeptical that a group that can't manage to successfully send out weekly emails will be able to run this trolley successfully. That being said, I really do hope I'm wrong.
I get your point on giving them some leeway a this is their first rodeo. And I really tried to do so initially. But it's hard to trust people who have lied to me. Case in point: at a pre-construction open house I was told by a trolley rep that the DeBaliviere bridge would only be closed for "the summer". Then the first act of their construction project was to close the bridge for six months. Reaching out to them has typically only resulted in being told to subscribe to their weekly email construction updates, which have been intermittent and incomplete. For example, their construction emails promised a 10-day closing of Pershing at DeBaliviere at one point. The road was instead closed for nearly 30 days and no construction updates were sent out during the entirety of the closure.
It's entirely possible that my experience with them is unique. I certainly hope so. But I remain skeptical that a group that can't manage to successfully send out weekly emails will be able to run this trolley successfully. That being said, I really do hope I'm wrong.
You are right. The TDD authority could struggle a bit, initially. I certainly hope not. I could be very wrong, but I see a lot (or enough) people riding this - especially older locals and tourists - because of the nostalgia of the cars. Either way, transit authorities ALWAYS go back to lean on taxpayers - sooner or later. ALWAYS.hiddeninput wrote: ↑Feb 03, 2017Maybe it isn't fair to project construction issues onto future operations, but the challenge I see for the trolley is figuring out what success looks like for them. For instance, will they be going back to taxpayers for additional funds in the future on top of the TDD that has been funneling money to them for a decade? Hard to even speculate about that since they've yet to share their pricing model with the community.
I get your point on giving them some leeway a this is their first rodeo. And I really tried to do so initially. But it's hard to trust people who have lied to me. Case in point: at a pre-construction open house I was told by a trolley rep that the DeBaliviere bridge would only be closed for "the summer". Then the first act of their construction project was to close the bridge for six months. Reaching out to them has typically only resulted in being told to subscribe to their weekly email construction updates, which have been intermittent and incomplete. For example, their construction emails promised a 10-day closing of Pershing at DeBaliviere at one point. The road was instead closed for nearly 30 days and no construction updates were sent out during the entirety of the closure.
It's entirely possible that my experience with them is unique. I certainly hope so. But I remain skeptical that a group that can't manage to successfully send out weekly emails will be able to run this trolley successfully. That being said, I really do hope I'm wrong.
I think Joe's TDD may have to get creative with some of the funding sources. Ads, sponsorships (like the Cincinnati line), sponsorship of stations, naming-rights etc. It would be great if Answers.com could sponsor a car or a station since they are HQ'd in the Delmar Loop - for example.
Also, I fully get why you have reservations. And this is not an excuse - but communication with the public regarding transit projects has been a problem in other cities too - even St. Louis with Metro. Some residents are okay with just enough info monthly, while others want information daily. However, they have to find a good balance when disseminating info to the public. I agree. Sometimes it comes across as apathy or as a lack of transparency, but the government - regardless of branch levels - can be dysfunctional.
Until there are LAWS put in place that require transit authorities to offer regular communication through specific platforms and information, they aren't going to share a lot - if there's no hardcore mandates. The well-managed systems will communicate well, but I know why it seems as though Joe's hasn't. Lack of experience. At the end of the day, those paying into the TDD need to be asking questions and requesting reports regularly.
Further, in the future, call your local representatives or the local media. I bet that move would have gotten the answers you were looking for.
Again I challenge the public to predict when this trolley folly will be abandoned and the streets returned to there original use.
Sure are a lot of naysayers on these boards lately.
Geez, you would think you want things to fail.
Please leave this to STLtoday posters (and many other places online) and remember that these boards are for constructive and positive advancements and growth in the region. If you want to post hypothetical negative things about projects that are (trying) to make STL a better place to live for everyone, please do so somewhere else.
Geez, you would think you want things to fail.
Please leave this to STLtoday posters (and many other places online) and remember that these boards are for constructive and positive advancements and growth in the region. If you want to post hypothetical negative things about projects that are (trying) to make STL a better place to live for everyone, please do so somewhere else.