urbanSTL

^ i'm not so sure. go back and read his posts (and lots of others on this forum and NextSTL). he equates what is essentially economic subjugation of poor black people in Ferguson with "feeling harassed" for example. and in my opinion he routinely makes classist statements that justify discrimination in the name of economics. in any case, i don't and didn't disagree that these events might have detrimental effects on Ferguson, but why am i a "sanctimonious outsider" for suggesting that targeted discrimination is not an acceptable solution for Ferguson's economic problems; i.e. being "on the right side of history"? And what policies, exactly, is he talking about if not the predatory profiling? I certainly didn't bring up any other policies, and I don't see where he did. If I missed something point me to it.

P.S. here's something positive that has come out of the Ferguson ordeal:

http://www.stlamerican.com/news/local_n ... 75e47.html

Another rolling gun battle, leaving two dead "south of Downtown":

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... f1a71.html

^^ oh, and to be clear AJ I was referring primarily to MH's posts. again, i'm not disputing that these events might hurt Ferguson economically, only that it doesn't justify continuing their discriminatory practices.

urban_dilettante wrote:

framer wrote:Another rolling gun battle, leaving two dead "south of Downtown":

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... f1a71.html

interesting that the car in the photo (presumably the abandoned car) has temporary plates. when i was home in December i swear i saw an oddly large number of temporary plates driving around. maybe it's nothing, but it seems weird.

Also, people register their vehicles in Illinois to avoid taxes and inpections. This is quite common especially in the African-American community (sorry, but this is a fact). You simply use a friend or relatives address or just a fake address on the East Side and you are up and running quickly and cheaply - no taxes or inspection needed ever. Temp Illinois plates in the City is an all too common sight and it's not some weird coincidence.

It's a real problem amongst the many that we have here.

http://www.stlmag.com/news/Missouri-Res ... is-Plates/

leeharveyawesome wrote:Also, people register their vehicles in Illinois to avoid taxes and inpections. This is quite common especially in the African-American community (sorry, but this is a fact). You simply use a friend or relatives address or just a fake address on the East Side and you are up and running quickly and cheaply - no taxes or inspection needed ever. Temp Illinois plates in the City is an all too common sight and it's not some weird coincidence.

It's a real problem amongst the many that we have here.

thanks for the link—i didn't realize this was a thing. i'm pretty sure the temp plate in the photo is a MO plate, no? i think most of the ones i saw while home were MO plates as well, but i could be wrong. it crossed my mind that there might be some kind of counterfeiting operation going on.

Can everyone on this forum make an attempt to go to ferguson at least once this week? Whether it's the Target up there, ferguson brewery, beauty stores, whatever.. Just go help support it. I don't want ferguson to turn into the next Wellston. I want it to stay diverse. Black, white, whatever. Downtown Ferguson is actually a cool urban designed area. Support it!

urban_dilettante wrote:^ i'm not so sure. go back and read his posts (and lots of others on this forum and NextSTL). he equates what is essentially economic subjugation of poor black people in Ferguson with "feeling harassed" for example. and in my opinion he routinely makes classist statements that justify discrimination in the name of economics. in any case, i don't and didn't disagree that these events might have detrimental effects on Ferguson, but why am i a "sanctimonious outsider" for suggesting that targeted discrimination is not an acceptable solution for Ferguson's economic problems; i.e. being "on the right side of history"? And what policies, exactly, is he talking about if not the predatory profiling? I certainly didn't bring up any other policies, and I don't see where he did. If I missed something point me to it.

P.S. here's something positive that has come out of the Ferguson ordeal:

http://www.stlamerican.com/news/local_n ... 75e47.html

Of course I make "classist" statements, St. Louis is "classist." If I don't acknowledge class, I can't be describing the situation accurately. You're a "sanctimonious outsider" if you don't have any financial 'skin in the game.' Economics are the ultimate cause of all of this. It's why the police wrote so many tickets and the municipal courts levied such high fines. It's because Ferguson couldn't pay it's way. By the way, there IS no "right side of history.' We're all connected to many interests, identities, and institutions in all sorts of ways that mean we CAN'T somehow remove ourselves from the 'bad' or imagine that we are 'good' even if we think we know what those are. To protest Ferguson police policies is BOTH good because it seeks a redress of grievances and bad because it confronts a municipality and its people with the very difficult question of how they will pay their way in the future. The odds are surely stronger that Ferguson will be hurt rather than helped economically by the last year of actions.

^IF that's the case, so be it. It's unfortunate that a community of good people would face that, but that's not the way a city is supposed to be run. That's not an efficient, sustainable, or morally-acceptable system.

We need cities in this position to realize they have to make sweeping changes. And financial constraints sometimes have the impact.

jstriebel wrote:^IF that's the case, so be it. It's unfortunate that a community of good people would face that, but that's not the way a city is supposed to be run. That's not an efficient, sustainable, or morally-acceptable system.

We need cities in this position to realize they have to make sweeping changes. And financial constraints sometimes have the impact.

So you purport to care about Ferguson and all you have to offer it's struggling property and business owners is "so be it?" I dare you to say it to their faces and see how they respond.

I'd rather see Ferguson disincorporate and its services taken over by St. Louis County than for its police department to continue abusing the constitutional rights of its citizens.

Every police dept in America is searching last 20 years of emails for racist keywords. When found, do they fire folks or just delete?

MatthewHall wrote:

jstriebel wrote:^IF that's the case, so be it. It's unfortunate that a community of good people would face that, but that's not the way a city is supposed to be run. That's not an efficient, sustainable, or morally-acceptable system.

We need cities in this position to realize they have to make sweeping changes. And financial constraints sometimes have the impact.

So you purport to care about Ferguson and all you have to offer it's struggling property and business owners is "so be it?" I dare you to say it to their faces and see how they respond.

I don't understand what's happening here. You're mad at us for saying an unjust, corrupt, and racist system is not better than a town where businesses fail due to bad economic decisions.

When you build something on a bad foundation, it's going to crumble. When innocent victims are involved, that sucks. I don't know any other way to put it. But it doesn't mean you just ignore the bad foundation.

Look, that foundation can be fixed. North County's foundation can be fixed. St. Louis County's can be fixed. The whole region's foundation can be fixed.

I'm not rooting for anyone to fail. I'm saying if they fail because they don't make the right changes, then yes, so be it. Ferguson doesn't have to fail. If they attempt to continue running as a completely separate municipality with completely separate services, then yes, they'll fail as well a number of others in the county who would be impacted by these laws limited revenue from municipal courts. But if they wise up and consolidate, they can avoid failure.

If they remain intent on being super separate and independent, then the economic realities will hit them.

Also, "would you say that to their face" is really not a valid point of discussion. Delivering bad news sucks. No, I don't want to say that to their face. I like to sugar coat things to people. But that doesn't de-legitimize the discussion we're having here. By the way, I'd probably advice them to consolidate because then they don't have to fail.

All over the map here. Sorry.

Ferguson and many places in North County were never sustainable and were destined to ultimatley fail if the solid taxpaying base ever dried up. Which it did. North County happened to go predominantly black at the same time. These municipalities then realized there was no way to pay for itself without writing the tickets to whomever happened to be around and it happened to be a lot of black people. And because it was black people the debate shifts from "how can we fix this fundementally flawed situation" to "it's all racist" at which point any constructive conversation is voided. Many white people have gotten multiple tickets in the North County disaster too and if they would still be getting them if they still lived there.

Apparently, Ferguson was viable and "nice" not too many years ago they tell me. But it took a large solid taxpaying base to keep it afloat. Ferguson or suburbia is not my style but it DID work at some point. I said Ferguson and its neighbors are "big government" in a post. Someone responded that it was not big government but that it was "bad" government". When you shouldn't even EXIST, well then, technically you're too "big" in my opinion.

Someone posted that the strip malls and wide boulevards of Ferguson doomed it. Those same strip malls and wide boulevards were the picture-perfect version of an ideal American suburbia back when it was "nice". But now those same strip malls and wide boulevards are given as one excuse as to why Ferguson is an impossible place to live and the residents are all victims of this awful design.

We've tried the urban density route (the North Side). Didn't really work.

We've tried public housing (Pruitt Igoe and others). That failed and quick.

Now, the suburban model is failing.

So, please tell me, what is going to work and how can I help?

I don't want to continue derailing this thread—my apologies for it thus far—so here's my final comment on Mr. Hall's statements:

onecity wrote:I believe M Hall is not making a value judgment in saying these things. He is simply saying what appears to be the case.

yet he's responded with indignation to me and to jstriebel for suggesting that economic decline is preferable to continued extortion. he has implied multiple times that the economic interests of "owners" in Ferguson trump the interests of abused citizens (some of which are likely owners themselves). i perceive that as a value judgement.

MatthewHall wrote:Of course I make "classist" statements, St. Louis is "classist."

i'm not sure you understand the difference between making classist statements, and making statements about classism.

leeharvey...nice, thoughtful post. thank you.

you suggest ferg is "big government" and should be disbanded. by any chance do you live in a STL county muni, and if so, do you think it should be disbanded, too?

shimmy wrote:

southsidepride wrote:What's funny is the right wingers who normally hate hate hate unions in their slavish support for the 1% are all about Roorda.

I guess as long as he's against the "coloreds" they'll put that aside.

Nice false equivalency. This is right out of the Salon.com talking points, the left wing's hate speech equivalent to the Breitbarts of the right. If you can't beat the other side with reason, just call them "racist", "sexist", or "bigots".

It's really quite simple. On Ferguson, most on the right have sided with the police union because it defended an officer who acted in self-defense while defending himself against a punk who assaulted him. Seeing people, mostly from the left, continually try to push a false narrative that has been continually disproven was frustrating and put a partisan spin on things. And when this false narrative led to deadly or potentially deadly assault on cops (depending on your perspective of the New York cop slayings), Roorda has every right to be defensive.

Now, the work of the police union in this case defending an officer and his livelihood from popular lies is quite different from a union who works the system so a guy who sits in a lawn chair at a port and hoses off equipment that comes off a ship from overseas gets paid $50+ an hour (just an example from my personal experience). But, that obvious reality doesn't fit with your talking points as painting everyone on the right as a chauvinistic, racist, bigots. So, by all means, don't let logic disrupt your thought process.

I admit I was a bit hyperbolic in my post, and for that I apologize.

But talking points from the left fringe and right fringe aside you can't help but wonder why the Tea Partiers--who rallied to the aid of Cliven Bundy the Nevada rancher 20 years delinquent on his taxes in his fight against the big bad government--haven't shown the least bit of interest in those who have been shaken down for minor traffic offenses in mostly African-American communities?

I don't lump the conservatives on here as they are also urbanists who see the folly of our fragmented government. But you have to wonder when you have the same people who consider Bundy a hero for thumbing his nose at the government either have no sympathy for thousands who see $10 tickets turn into court cases costing hundreds and thousands of dollars or berate them for being "criminals" (a favorite of mine is their simplistic "can't do the time don't do the crime"--easy to say when you don't get stopped for going five over or a broken tail light means a friendly warning from an officer instead of a night in jail) !

urban_dilettante wrote:I don't want to continue derailing this thread—my apologies for it thus far—so here's my final comment on Mr. Hall's statements:

onecity wrote:I believe M Hall is not making a value judgment in saying these things. He is simply saying what appears to be the case.

yet he's responded with indignation to me and to jstriebel for suggesting that economic decline is preferable to continued extortion. he has implied multiple times that the economic interests of "owners" in Ferguson trump the interests of abused citizens (some of which are likely owners themselves). i perceive that as a value judgement.

MatthewHall wrote:Of course I make "classist" statements, St. Louis is "classist."

i'm not sure you understand the difference between making classist statements, and making statements about classism.

I'm not sure you can either. You're shooting the messenger, here. I'm not suggesting that anything is preferable to any other thing. You have no idea what my values or interests are. I'm saying that there are different CLASS interests in Ferguson as in all human societies. I'm making statements about how class has worked in metro St. Louis. I see no reason to think that this will change in the future. To suggest that class, that is a set of economic interests and corresponding social identities and political alliances, will somehow stop working as it has done in metro St. Louis is preposterous. You can't eat 'good will.' You can't pave your roads with a lack of police harassment. You need money for roads, schools, police, etc. Ferguson's one hope is that it can offload some of its costs onto St. Louis County.