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PostJun 05, 2006#26

not related to the exact issue here, but i have definate opinions on why a "creative" class isnt that turned on by Saint Louis.

The first problem is negativity of the natives. There is some sort of inbuilt mechanism that most creative natives of Saint Louis have that makes them loathe the ground that built their very atoms.



I think alot of that was that a few famous beat artists such as Burroughs and Henry Miller (not that he was a beat artist but you get my drift) had nothing but venom for STL because at the time they experienced the city it was the prime example of segregation and spite under the guise of positivity. I don't think we have shaken that image well even though in my opinion the black and white cultural differences are bridged here quite a bit more than they are in other cities I have lived in and/or visited.



In other words, the artist and writers that a lot of creative people look up to, the icons, were really dismal on stl, and probably rightfully so, but we haven't really broadcasted that this issue has changed here either.
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PostJun 05, 2006#27

Interesting point!



I am sure that the literary dissing of St. Louis over the years does have an impact. I had never really thought about it, but many of the authors/poets/musicians that were born here or spent time here have not exactly painted a rosy picture of St. Louis. I can think of a few other examples: W.C. Handy, Tennessee Williams, Mark Twain, Maya Angelou (indirectly - she wrote about racism), A.E. Hotchner. And, there were many that left and basically never came back, Josephine Baker, Miles Davis, Tina Turner...'tis a shame, so we should value those that stayed/came back even more. So, make sure you go to Chuck Berry's concert in a couple of weeks...and every month for that matter...

PostJun 06, 2006#28

From an MSN.com article:



"Most-Educated Cities in the United States



Seattle tops the list of America's most educated cities, with more than half its population 25 years and older holding at least a bachelor's degree. Data collected by the Census Bureau's American Community Survey shows that 51.3 percent of 25-and-over Seattleites have a bachelor's degree or higher, closely followed by San Francisco (51.0 percent), Raleigh, North Carolina (49.7 percent), Washington, D.C. (47.7 percent), and Austin, Texas (45.1 percent)."



Read more: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departmen ... atedCities





I think this is very interesting from a perception standpoint. St. Louis is never on any of these types of lists. Moreover, most of the cities that are on the list are cities that have been cited as doing a good job in retaining and attracting the creative class. After looking at the actual census figures, however, I find the list to be very misleading. The actual 2003 U.S. Census data to which this article refers ranks places, i.e. cities, not metropolitan areas, so any comparison is useless. But the article implies that it is ranking metro areas, since it has removed the word 'city' from the name of each place. Very misleading.





2003 Census Data - Percent of People 25 Years and Over Who Have Completed a Bachelor's Degree Population 25 years and over (Place level): http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/ ... 02T160.htm



If you look at the county ranking, St. Louis Co. does much better, still unacceptably low, but better.



2003 Census Data (County level) http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/ ... 02T050.htm
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PostJun 13, 2006#29

Deb Peterson from the post wrote an article in todays post about Cabanne Schlafly, a member of the "creative class" that recently returned to St. Louis. She's living in a loft and working for an Arts organization. The city's recent and continuing transformation seems to be attracting some creative types.
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PostJun 13, 2006#30

jlblues wrote:Interesting point!



I am sure that the literary dissing of St. Louis over the years does have an impact. ...


Good point.

Similarly, does anyone on here read Men's Health? Does anyone notice that everytime they have city rankings (things like Crime, Best cities to live, Most active cities, Most healthy cities, Most STD's) ST. Louis is ranked near the bottom... Men's health has a huge subscrition base and is frequently read by youths, as well as young adults and the like. It is circulated around the world and many millions of people see this. It seems that Men's Health never has anything possitive to say about our region..
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PostJun 13, 2006#31

bpe235 wrote:
jlblues wrote:Interesting point!



I am sure that the literary dissing of St. Louis over the years does have an impact. ...


Good point.

Similarly, does anyone on here read Men's Health? Does anyone notice that everytime they have city rankings (things like Crime, Best cities to live, Most active cities, Most healthy cities, Most STD's) ST. Louis is ranked near the bottom... Men's health has a huge subscrition base and is frequently read by youths, as well as young adults and the like. It is circulated around the world and many millions of people see this. It seems that Men's Health never has anything possitive to say about our region..


Maybe there is nothing positive to say.



I get a kick out of how worked up people get about these city rankings. The ones at the top crow, the ones at the bottom whine and none of it means a damn thing.
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PostJun 13, 2006#32

bpe235 wrote:
jlblues wrote:Interesting point!



I am sure that the literary dissing of St. Louis over the years does have an impact. ...


Good point.

Similarly, does anyone on here read Men's Health? Does anyone notice that everytime they have city rankings (things like Crime, Best cities to live, Most active cities, Most healthy cities, Most STD's) ST. Louis is ranked near the bottom... Men's health has a huge subscrition base and is frequently read by youths, as well as young adults and the like. It is circulated around the world and many millions of people see this. It seems that Men's Health never has anything possitive to say about our region..


I used to subscribe to Men's Health, but I quickly came to the realization that they produce the same magazine every month - Last longer in bed! Get ripped abs! St. Louis sucks!



I'm sure that the small size of the City of St. Louis and its concentration of crime and poverty play a role in our poor performance in the Men's Health rankings.



However...



It does not shock me to find us scoring low in health-related rankings. We have a ridiculous amount of fast-food restaurants, most of the population is too lazy to walk more than a block to their office or climb a flight of stairs, and we smoke like chimneys.

PostJun 13, 2006#33

Xing wrote:There really isn't much here, besides an occasional Movie, and graphic design jobs. An Art school would help, as would tax incentives for films.


BTW, Xing makes a great point here. While I have no idea how to quantify the amount of sheer creativity that an art school can add to a city, cities that I've visited that do have their own art schools, such as KC and Milwaukee have always seemed more bohemian to me.



While Wash U. and Webster have some fine creative programs, I think that having the "St. Louis School of Design" or the "Art Institute of St. Louis" would go a long way towards adding the creative population that we all want to attract. Imagine what Grand Center would be like with an art school instead of just a bunch of theaters!
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PostJun 13, 2006#34

DeBaliviere wrote:cities that I've visited that do have their own art schools, such as KC and Milwaukee have always seemed more bohemian to me.


I don't think these cities are in reality any more bohemian than St. Louis. I think the difference is one of perception. Those cities seem more bohemian because those types of people are more concentrated around certain areas that have some type of magnet, such as an arts school, cultural center, etc.



...Which brings me back to the point I have tried to clarify on this, and other threads, again and again. Everything here is too spread out, with no honest attempt to create magnets or districts for different kinds of people. In St. Louis, you can find substantial populations of the 'bohemian' types in Soulard, Benton Park, Lafayette Square, CWE, U City, Dogtown, Maplewood, South Grand/Tower Grove, Washington Avenue (less and less every day), and soon, The Grove and Cherokee Street. Everywhere BUT Grand Center, ostensibly our Arts District.



I should make this my motto - 'We need to do a better job of building upon those assets that we already have or abilities at which we already excel'. There is a business strategy concept known as 'competitive advantage' that is extremely applicable to cities as well. To be successful, you must learn what your competitve advantage is, understand it, and then create your strategy around it. This applies to tourism, attracting jobs, attracting new residents, new developments, etc.
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PostJun 13, 2006#35

jlblues wrote:
DeBaliviere wrote:cities that I've visited that do have their own art schools, such as KC and Milwaukee have always seemed more bohemian to me.


I don't think these cities are in reality any more bohemian than St. Louis. I think the difference is one of perception. Those cities seem more bohemian because those types of people are more concentrated around certain areas that have some type of magnet, such as an arts school, cultural center, etc.



...Which brings me back to the point I have stated on other threads again and again. Everything here is too spread out, with no honest attempt to create magnets or districts for different kinds of people. In St. Louis, you can find substantial populations of the 'bohemian' types in Soulard, Benton Park, Lafayette Square, CWE, U City, Dogtown, Maplewood, South Grand/Tower Grove, Washington Avenue (less and less every day), and soon, The Grove and Cherokee Street. Everywhere BUT Grand Center, ostensibly our Arts District.


Totally. I guess it might have something to do with the fact that the city, practically as a whole, experienced a decline over several decades. For instance, had Tower Grove South maintained its status as a middle/upper-middle class neighborhood, it would have never been affordable enough for creatives/artists to move there.



And I could not agree with you more about needing to build on our strengths and connect them.



I'd still like to have an art school though. I love how Wash U. established downtown lofts for its art students, and would love to see the other local universities do the same. Imagine if Webster, Fontbonne, UMSL, Lindenwood, Maryville, etc. were to jointly develop housing, studio space and exhibition space for their art programs downtown.
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PostJun 13, 2006#36

having spent tons of time in Austin...I think much of it's success can be attributed to it's beautiful hill country, the overall growing population of Texas, and the fact that there is one main area of hightly concentrated nightlife (6th street) surrounded by a university of over 50,000 students UT and another large university (san Marcus) nearby... I have never met a native texan that didn't love austin...Everyone that goes there loves it... Everyone that goes to school there loves it and doesn't want to leave...
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PostJun 13, 2006#37

DeBaliviere wrote:I'd still like to have an art school though. I love how Wash U. established downtown lofts for its art students, and would love to see the other local universities do the same. Imagine if Webster, Fontbonne, UMSL, Lindenwood, Maryville, etc. were to jointly develop housing, studio space and exhibition space for their art programs downtown.


That's exactly what should have happened at Old Post Office Square. As I stated before, I think that was the original concept, but it quickly degenerated into turf battles between schools (typical), and then arguments over parking, and we ended up with a half-assed version (or more like an eighth-assed version) of the initial concept.
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PostJun 13, 2006#38

bpe235 wrote:having spent tons of time in Austin...I think much of it's success can be attributed to it's beautiful hill country, the overall growing population of Texas, and the fact that there is one main area of hightly concentrated nightlife (6th street) surrounded by a university of over 50,000 students UT and another large university (san Marcus) nearby... I have never met a native texan that didn't love austin...Everyone that goes there loves it... Everyone that goes to school there loves it and doesn't want to leave...


Being from Texas I know LOTS of people from the "other" cities in Texas that resent Austin, like Dallas and Houston. Both of those cities are very "traditionally" business friendly and industrial. Austin is more new age business friendly with the environment and other things on their mind. One of my relatives was on the urban planning board in Austin and the state did a lot of things to stifle the progress such as smart planning and green development that the city did. Lots of resentment during the 90s over their "top place to live" rating.
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PostJun 13, 2006#39

Austin also has a strong film presence- Dazed and Confused, Sin City, Texas Chainsaw Massacre , among other things...
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PostJun 14, 2006#40

^It helps having Robert Rodriguez as a resident, and keeping Troublemaker Studios near his home (and other parts IN his home). St. Louis doesn't have that distinctive film presence. Mainly because community leaders haven't supported it in the past (it's getting better). I always planned to do the M. Knight thing when I was an aspiring director. He lives and bases all his films in (or around) his hometown of Philadelphia.



I agree with the general consensus that STL needs a bigger art presence, and I would be very excited if we had the capital to start an Art Design college here. While Webster has a great art program, it's presence in a relatively quiet suburb, and it's existence throughout the world, limits its visibility as a true art school.
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