There are businesses on the Landing?
Seriously though, this seems like a good idea to me.
Seriously though, this seems like a good idea to me.
This is a much better solution for tourist dependent businesses. The Landing will never thrive with weekend and summer spikes. The residential renovations will be the step one for it's revival.
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The easier we make it to hang out by the Arch for an extended period the more likely I think the Landing does well. Just my guess.
I think Aprice is right on. To me landing development long term is really about building up residential & north riverfront development (would make for a nice Apple campus) on one hand and Drury Hotel-residential tower/Convention Center expansion on the other hand. Same extra people hanging around the Arch is a seasonal bonus.
I think this is a great idea (and much needed). I always feel bad when I see tourists wandering around on the levee, wondering "well, now what do we do?".
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Honestly, as much as I grouse about closing Washington, the real blow to the landing was Lumiere Place, which tore down a strip of popular businesses and made access across 70 even more difficult than it already was. Kind of a double whammy. I'd like to see CAR do something to make the landing more obvious, to point folks that way. Maybe see the city provide some better wayfinding in and out. But yes, I think APrice has it. What it needs is probably residential. More density. More development not oriented to seasonal tourists. It'd be a desirable spot, I should think. Positively an ideal location transit oriented development. Would be even better if you could slow down 70 through there, even if you can't really get rid of it.
I've said it before but since Lumiere isn't going anywhere and Washington Ave isn't coming back, reestablishing Lucas Ave as a public street between 2nd and Memorial would go a long way to addressing the Landing's current ingress/egress issues. And it wouldn't even cost Drury (who currently owns the parking lot) a single parking spot.
I think it's a pipe dream right now, but if the lot is ever proposed to be build upon my hope is reestablishment of the street grid is a requirement.
-RBB
I think it's a pipe dream right now, but if the lot is ever proposed to be build upon my hope is reestablishment of the street grid is a requirement.
-RBB
FWIW. Lumiere has led the local casino market in increased revenue for at least 4 quarters in a row. They're clearly doing something right, and that's got to be a boost for the Landing.
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RIP Mississippi Nightssymphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 14, 2018the real blow to the landing was Lumiere Place, which tore down a strip of popular businesses
So... It's "peak" in (what?) 2005-to-2010 was the best it'll ever be? Really??? That's depressing.rbb wrote: Washington Ave isn't coming back
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I don't doubt they're doing well for themselves, but do you really think they bring traffic to the landing? I would suspect the reverse, actually, since you can eat, sleep, and play without ever leaving the building. I never see anyone out walking around near the casino. Not that I'm there every day, but . . . off and on. They strike me as more competition to the landing than commensal with it.
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^That is absolutely accurate. The casino industry does best when they are in monopolistic situations (as do most industries) and every other entity that $$ could be spent is a competitor to gaming properties.
I think the opposite could be true - that the industry does best when there's the most competition. Las Vegas being the best example. And Harrah's New Orleans is an example of a casino benefitting from the patrons attracted by nearby bars, restaurants, entertainment and general historic environment.
In any event, Lumiere hasn't been the lifeline that The Landing needed and the needless demolition for parking was a big detriment.
Had they built the promised residential building that may have made it a wash. Hopefully the end of construction and opening of a newly updated park next door brings some investment interest back to the neighborhood after all these years of uncertainty and isolation.
I think with more foot traffic funneled toward Downtown proper with the new western-facing entrance and use of Kiener garage, Laclede may not benefit from Arch tourism as much as the pre-construction years and may need to try and reinvent itself as a quaint/quiet more sleepy pocket of the city than its bar-crawling past. Almost a mini, more dense Lafayette Sq. type of feel, than a mini, more dense Soulard.
In any event, Lumiere hasn't been the lifeline that The Landing needed and the needless demolition for parking was a big detriment.
Had they built the promised residential building that may have made it a wash. Hopefully the end of construction and opening of a newly updated park next door brings some investment interest back to the neighborhood after all these years of uncertainty and isolation.
I think with more foot traffic funneled toward Downtown proper with the new western-facing entrance and use of Kiener garage, Laclede may not benefit from Arch tourism as much as the pre-construction years and may need to try and reinvent itself as a quaint/quiet more sleepy pocket of the city than its bar-crawling past. Almost a mini, more dense Lafayette Sq. type of feel, than a mini, more dense Soulard.
Sorry, not talking about the 'Washington Avenue district' losing significance or appeal, I meant the literal physical stretch of Wash Ave that ran parallel to the Eads bridge and was severed from Memorial Ave as a part of the Arch Grounds improvements. The Landing lost a point of ingress when that was taken away, and that's been a major pain point for businesses located there. Restoring Lucas from Memorial to 2nd would give visitors a new way in.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Feb 15, 2018So... It's "peak" in (what?) 2005-to-2010 was the best it'll ever be? Really??? That's depressing.rbb wrote: Washington Ave isn't coming back
-RBB
I think the opposite could be true - that the industry does best when there's the most competition. Las Vegas being the best example. And Harrah's New Orleans is an example of a casino benefitting from the patrons attracted by nearby bars, restaurants, entertainment and general historic environment.
In any event, Lumiere hasn't been the lifeline that The Landing needed and the needless demolition for parking was a big detriment.
Had they built the promised residential building that may have made it a wash. Hopefully the end of construction and opening of a newly updated park next door brings some investment interest back to the neighborhood after all these years of uncertainty and isolation.
I think with more foot traffic funneled toward Downtown proper with the new western-facing entrance and use of Kiener garage, Laclede may not benefit from Arch tourism as much as the pre-construction years and may need to try and reinvent itself as a quaint/quiet more sleepy pocket of the city than its bar-crawling past. Almost a mini, more dense Lafayette Sq. type of feel, than a mini, more dense Soulard.
In any event, Lumiere hasn't been the lifeline that The Landing needed and the needless demolition for parking was a big detriment.
Had they built the promised residential building that may have made it a wash. Hopefully the end of construction and opening of a newly updated park next door brings some investment interest back to the neighborhood after all these years of uncertainty and isolation.
I think with more foot traffic funneled toward Downtown proper with the new western-facing entrance and use of Kiener garage, Laclede may not benefit from Arch tourism as much as the pre-construction years and may need to try and reinvent itself as a quaint/quiet more sleepy pocket of the city than its bar-crawling past. Almost a mini, more dense Lafayette Sq. type of feel, than a mini, more dense Soulard.
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^ promised residential buildings. plural. they basically promised to build an entire new city on the landing. they unveiled a cute little model and city leaders wet their pants and gave them free reign to demolish anything they wanted.
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I have always thought that an amendment to Missouri law allowing small scale gambling establishments would be a huge boon for cities like St. Louis. As it stands now, casinos are massive and monolithic one stop shops that don't do anything for neighborhoods.
Imagine instead if St. Louis had a gambling "district" of small scale gambling houses and bars. A street could be filled with different small bars that specialize in different forms of gambling. One could start at the western themed roulette bar, move to the slot machine bar, get dinner at one of the restaurants on the strip, then head to a nightclub, and finish the night at a local boutique hotel. This would be especially prevalent in cities like St. Louis with large strips of unfilled retail.
Imagine instead if St. Louis had a gambling "district" of small scale gambling houses and bars. A street could be filled with different small bars that specialize in different forms of gambling. One could start at the western themed roulette bar, move to the slot machine bar, get dinner at one of the restaurants on the strip, then head to a nightclub, and finish the night at a local boutique hotel. This would be especially prevalent in cities like St. Louis with large strips of unfilled retail.
urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Feb 15, 2018^ promised residential buildings. plural. they basically promised to build an entire new city on the landing. they unveiled a cute little model and city leaders wet their pants and gave them free reign to demolish anything they wanted.
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Ah, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I recall you could go all the way down to the riverfront on Washington. Looking at Google Maps streetview I see that to no longer be the case.rbb wrote: ↑Feb 15, 2018Sorry, not talking about the 'Washington Avenue district' losing significance or appeal, I meant the literal physical stretch of Wash Ave that ran parallel to the Eads bridge and was severed from Memorial Ave as a part of the Arch Grounds improvements. The Landing lost a point of ingress when that was taken away, and that's been a major pain point for businesses located there. Restoring Lucas from Memorial to 2nd would give visitors a new way in.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Feb 15, 2018So... It's "peak" in (what?) 2005-to-2010 was the best it'll ever be? Really??? That's depressing.rbb wrote: Washington Ave isn't coming back
-RBB
Just wanted to share my experience from today on the Arch Grounds and walking Downtown.
There's no eastern sidewalk on 1st street going under and towards the new arch grounds. I had the pleasure of walking through mud. Small thing, I could have used the other side, but it's just sh*tty looking. Coupled with the feral cat den and cast iron remnants just to the left, it isn't a good polish on the whole project, though, I'd guess that CAR is not in charge of adding a sidewalk there or cleaning anything up. Maybe the city should be fining whoever owns those two lots east of 1st street and west of LKS. They have been like that for the last several years I've been coming down to the Landing and the riverfront.
Secondly, that lack of entry from Washington was a complete pain in the ass. There's not even a sidewalk on the east side of Memorial at the Eads because the fences abut the street. I couldn't cross over there, and there's no cross walk. Then you have a parking lot that has a pointless fence all around it to where you have to walk 50-100 yards just to enter it (ohh high security). And the traffic pattern there, without a crosswalk is so erratic that it felt pretty dangerous. From what I saw, all they were doing over there was power washing the pavement or some light posts. That really needs to be opened. Closing off the entry also makes little to no sense for me. It really is limiting traffic into the landing. I imagine if the Drury tower ever happens the city might consider reopening it, though would end up as a giant waste of money. It's basically been displaced for a narrow strip of grass abutting the stairway. I realize pedestrian safety is important, and I get that they're trying to cultivate that, but it really cuts down on avenues into Lacledes. I don't even mind it ending and turning onto 1st, as it's more of a director of traffic into that neighborhood at least.
You can get in over the cap, through a super narrow walkway around the new museum entrance flanked by construction fencing. North leg of the arch is surrounded in construction, ponds were empty (I understand it's still winter, but it looks horrible) etc. etc. Just really surprised these things haven't been fixed yet.
One thing that would be cool is instead of using that temp ice rink in Kiener would be to turn those ponds into ice rinks, or at least one. I'm surprised they didn't think of incorporating an option to retrofit it with that.
End rant.
There's no eastern sidewalk on 1st street going under and towards the new arch grounds. I had the pleasure of walking through mud. Small thing, I could have used the other side, but it's just sh*tty looking. Coupled with the feral cat den and cast iron remnants just to the left, it isn't a good polish on the whole project, though, I'd guess that CAR is not in charge of adding a sidewalk there or cleaning anything up. Maybe the city should be fining whoever owns those two lots east of 1st street and west of LKS. They have been like that for the last several years I've been coming down to the Landing and the riverfront.
Secondly, that lack of entry from Washington was a complete pain in the ass. There's not even a sidewalk on the east side of Memorial at the Eads because the fences abut the street. I couldn't cross over there, and there's no cross walk. Then you have a parking lot that has a pointless fence all around it to where you have to walk 50-100 yards just to enter it (ohh high security). And the traffic pattern there, without a crosswalk is so erratic that it felt pretty dangerous. From what I saw, all they were doing over there was power washing the pavement or some light posts. That really needs to be opened. Closing off the entry also makes little to no sense for me. It really is limiting traffic into the landing. I imagine if the Drury tower ever happens the city might consider reopening it, though would end up as a giant waste of money. It's basically been displaced for a narrow strip of grass abutting the stairway. I realize pedestrian safety is important, and I get that they're trying to cultivate that, but it really cuts down on avenues into Lacledes. I don't even mind it ending and turning onto 1st, as it's more of a director of traffic into that neighborhood at least.
You can get in over the cap, through a super narrow walkway around the new museum entrance flanked by construction fencing. North leg of the arch is surrounded in construction, ponds were empty (I understand it's still winter, but it looks horrible) etc. etc. Just really surprised these things haven't been fixed yet.
One thing that would be cool is instead of using that temp ice rink in Kiener would be to turn those ponds into ice rinks, or at least one. I'm surprised they didn't think of incorporating an option to retrofit it with that.
End rant.
That small city of buildings was never promised - it was just a vision/potential Future phase (or as you point out a sort of slight-of-hand shiny object to get pols and the public on board). What was actually promised was a single ten story residential development originally called Port St. Louis that Pinnacle Entertainment agreed to build to the tune of $25 million.urban_dilettante wrote:^ promised residential buildings. plural. they basically promised to build an entire new city on the landing. they unveiled a cute little model and city leaders wet their pants and gave them free reign to demolish anything they wanted.
They started initial planning for it, then I think tried bribing in a partner, and then fully dropped it when everything cooled off (it was planned as a condo project). They ended up buying themselves out of the promise with significant donations to GRG, the Blues Museum, CityArchRiver and a few other nearby causes.
HOLD THE PHONE. YOU CAN ENTER ACROSS THE CAP NOW???????????
Other than that, I actually really appreciate this write up. I'm highly opposed to catering our city to tourists, it's unsustainable and a terrible way to build a regional economy. BUT if we're going to have a globally recognized landmark that is expected to draw 3 million visitors a year, let's at least treat them well. Especially when it's not that hard to do it i.e. open a 8 foot wide path at Washington or at the Cap. It doesn't require a huge funding package from the Board of Alderman, just repair sidewalks here and there and put in some parallel parking to help walkability downtown and reduce traffic sewers.
Other than that, I actually really appreciate this write up. I'm highly opposed to catering our city to tourists, it's unsustainable and a terrible way to build a regional economy. BUT if we're going to have a globally recognized landmark that is expected to draw 3 million visitors a year, let's at least treat them well. Especially when it's not that hard to do it i.e. open a 8 foot wide path at Washington or at the Cap. It doesn't require a huge funding package from the Board of Alderman, just repair sidewalks here and there and put in some parallel parking to help walkability downtown and reduce traffic sewers.
From what I could see. I saw people entering over there. I had already walked the entire park so I wasn't about to walk back in again lol. Like I said, the opening is really narrow, so it might not be visibly apparent.
From walking up to and along the fence this afternoon, I could see no way to enter by the lid.