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PostJun 23, 2010#101

There are already huge traffic jams during rush hour. Plus, I would think the traffic lights would be synchronized for the high volume times of the day.

Putting in a boulevard gives drivers the opportunity to easily reroute themselves through downtown, if needed. The traffic along the boulevard, and through downtown, creates opportunities for economic growth. Who wouldn't want to open a restaurant/business that gets 50,000 commuters driving by it a day (plus easy pedestrian access)? Maybe if most drivers reroute themselves through downtown, they can find new and interesting places to shop/eat/visit...which spurs new growth and a larger interest in downtown.

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PostJun 23, 2010#102

^ ^^ Excellent comments.

Yes, traffic seems to be the number one (sometimes only) concern for some. There are several ways to address this concerns, but in general whether we have a boulevard and 20 blocks of restored street grid or a three-block tunnel, (or pedestrian bridges) is a choice. We know by looking at traffic from the I-64 project and countless Interstate removal projects elsewhere in the US, that traffic is not like water, that is, you can't take x number of cars and put them on a spreadsheet to figure out where they will go. Road s and traffic are self-healing in this respect. Now, if a traffic study of the City to River boulevard concept were to show that it would create two-hour backups, that downtown streets were already at capacity, etc. then, OK.

To share one story that was passed on to me: while consulting for a West County road project, a MoDOT engineer told a local group that without x road improvement that cars would have to wait a stoplight for 4hrs according to their projection. The engineer was very confident in their numbers. When a person responded that that couldn't possibly be true, that no one would choose to wait for four hrs at a west county stop light, the engineer again cited their numbers. Do you see the problem here? Traffic and human behavior aren't spreadsheets or calculators. When a road becomes too busy people choose other options.

Ultimately, any plan will have to be accepted by MoDOT and the USDOT. City to River simply contends that it's possible, that it's the only solution that truly reconnects our city to the Arch and river and that it should be further explored. Again, a tunnel/lid or pedestrian bridges do absolutely nothing to reconnect the city/Arch/river, failing to add a single additional access point for anyone.

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PostJun 23, 2010#103

How many EB70 cars passing through that area will be diverted due to the new Bridge.

Still, I prefer a lid option with the depressed section depressing further north (so the Landing can be woven back into town.)

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PostJun 23, 2010#104

shadrach wrote:Still, I prefer a lid option with the depressed section depressing further north (so the Landing can be woven back into town.)
Almost impossible because it's Metrolink that forces I-70 above ground. The Metrolink tunnel can't be easily/cheaply reconfigured and therefore is very unlikely to change. (not to mention the HUGE cost of building a 1.4 mile tunnel for the interstate).

Taking out the elevated lanes is the only realistic way to deal with the connectivity issues north of the depressed lanes.

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PostJun 23, 2010#105

:oops: forgot about MetroLink.

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PostJun 24, 2010#106

^yeah, I think the corner of the park by Washington Ave is the most compelling reason to get rid of the interstate. That corner should obviously be one of the main entrances to the arch grounds and to the landing. Ripping out the skybridge was great, but that elevated section has got to go.

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PostJun 24, 2010#107

Oh Gloria, how you disappoint me. :cry: Hold on while a take a walk four blocks over and have a little chat.

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PostJul 06, 2010#108

Seattle moving forward with their own interstate removal.

http://www.seattlepi.com/transportation ... ront1.html

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PostJul 06, 2010#109

^ Question: One of the design firms working with the Arch Grounds Redux positioned themselves for their work uniting parkland in Downtown Seattle around an interstate highway that cuts through their city. Any idea if this would be the same highway mentioned in the article? And in conjunction with the Arch Grounds Redux plans underway, could this group's retention be a harbinger for progress on the City to River idea?

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PostJul 06, 2010#110

Gone Corporate wrote:^ Question: One of the design firms working with the Arch Grounds Redux positioned themselves for their work uniting parkland in Downtown Seattle around an interstate highway that cuts through their city. Any idea if this would be the same highway mentioned in the article? And in conjunction with the Arch Grounds Redux plans underway, could this group's retention be a harbinger for progress on the City to River idea?
The park you mention is Olympic Park in Seattle. It passes over a busy road, but not an Interstate. Weiss/Manfredi did Olympic Park and have spoken about embracing traffic and existing infrastructure. My opinion is that they may be the least likely to propose removing I-70. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Sculpture_Park

The park is cool, but here's one view of it that's not (reminds me of I-64 sound walls):

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PostJul 06, 2010#111

http://www.tpl.org/content_documents/Ur ... raffic.pdf

Link to article (ULI, 2007) regarding highway caps and parks. The St. Louis example is in bold but gives the whole article gives some further perspective.

Nature Over Traffic

by Peter Harnik and Ben Welle

Urban radicals want automobiles banned from cities, while urban moderates can, perhaps, live with them—as long as they are not seen or heard. In European central cities, the urban radicals have the upper hand. In the United States, where moderates reign, cities are increasingly settling for a compromise—an expensive compromise—by putting freeway segments underground and covering them with parkland. Whether called lids, decks, bridges, or tunnels, there are already at least 20 highway parks across the country and at least a dozen more somewhere in the planning pipeline. As urban auto impacts become less welcome, these decks have moved from the novel, to the accepted, and, increasingly, to the expected. The sometimes considerable cost has gone from being classified “pork barrel” to being redefined as “amenity investment with high economic payback.”

Most famous is Seattle’s aptly named Freeway Park, designed by the Lawrence Halprin landscape architecture and design firm, which opened with great fanfare in 1976. But the concept actually goes back to 1939 when Robert Moses built the Franklin D. Roosevelt Expressway along Manhattan’s East River, tunneled it under the mayor’s home at Gracie Mansion, and constructed 14-acre (5.6-ha) Carl Shurz Park on top. Moses did it again in 1950, in Brooklyn, when citizens rose up against a planned expressway through the center of Brooklyn Heights. As a compromise, he added the one-third-mile-long (0.5-km-long) Brooklyn Promenade with its supreme view of lower Manhattan, remarking self-satisfiedly at the ribbon cutting, “I don’t know of anything quite like this in any city in the world.”

The latest decks have been New Jersey’s innovative highway redesigns in Trenton and Atlantic City and the still-not-completed series of Rose Kennedy Greenway parks over Boston’s massive “Big Dig.” [See “Filling the Cut,” March 2006, page 65.] In a study carried out by the Washington, D.C.–based Trust for Public Land’s Center for City Park Excellence, it was found that the average size of the nation’s freeway parks is about nine acres (3.64 ha), and that, on average, each one covers 1,620 linear feet of highway.

The Interstate Highway System, when it was conceived in the early 1950s, was designed to link but not penetrate cities. By the 1960s, however, that detail had been forgotten. Highways became the preeminent tool of urban renewal and redesign, and vast swaths of urban real estate were paved over. Waterfronts were blockaded in Portland, Cincinnati, Hartford, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and San Francisco. Nooses of concrete were tightly wound around the downtowns of Dallas and Charlotte. Trenches of noise and smog cut through Boston, Detroit, Seattle, and Atlanta. Massive elevated structures threw shadows over Miami and New Orleans. And wide strips of land were taken from large iconic parks in Los Angeles (Griffith Park), St. Louis (Forest Park), Baltimore (Druid Hill Park), and San Diego (Balboa Park).

A few downtown parks actually survived the devastation thanks to the intervention of historic preservationists, including Lytle Park in Cincinnati and the National Mall in Washington, D.C. In both cases, citizen outcry forced the highway builders to tunnel underneath the surface (although technically Lytle Park was leveled and then reconstructed three years later).

But it was not until the construction of Seattle’s brand-new Freeway Park that the “deck-the-freeway” concept began getting some serious attention. Because of the constrained, hourglass geography of Seattle, Interstate 5 (I-5) was a particularly damaging road, and the environmentally oriented populace was dismayed by the impact. “There was a large moat of traffic between downtown and historically residential First Hill neighborhood,” says David Brewster, president of the Freeway Park Neighborhood Association. But the city was lucky: not only was I-5 sunk into a deckable trough as it passed downtown, but also a former Seattle mayor, James “Dorm” Braman, had just been appointed assistant secretary of transportation for urban systems and the environment by then-president Richard Nixon. Pushed by civic leader Jim Ellis and paid for under the city’s “Forward Thrust” bond initiative, Freeway Park opened in time for the Bicentennial and garnered coast-to-coast attention. “It was a model for other cities to heal the scar that cuts right through a neighborhood,” says Brewster.

Freeway Park, while beautiful and memorable, failed on one major count: acoustics. At just five acres (2 ha), it could not completely muffle the sound of traffic, and the park experience is accompanied by a constant white noise—not obtrusive, but not minimal, either. The park also has some safety and design issues that the city is now seeking to resolve.

Phoenix’s ten-acre (4-ha) Hance Park seems to have solved the noise challenge (as has Seattle’s new, much larger Sam Smith Park). Described by the Phoenix New Times as “a rare Phoenix instance of nature over traffic—in this case, literally,” Hance Park is decked over the Papago Freeway, uniting uptown and downtown and providing a park adjacent to the city’s central library. The freeway (Interstate 10) was originally planned as an elevated bridge through downtown, but opposition by citizens and the Arizona Republic killed that idea in a 1973 ballot measure. Not until ten years later did the city finally accept a below-grade solution with the park as a key sweetener. Hance Park opened in 1992 and today is the site of a Japanese garden.

Freeway parks have also bridged the divide between cities and their waterfronts. In Duluth, Minnesota, for example, a plan to build Interstate 35 through downtown Duluth along the shoreline of Lake Superior generated intense opposition from environmentalists and historic preservationists. “The highway extension became a very polarizing issue in the city,” says former city planner Richard Loraas. In an effort at compromise, Duluth architect Kent Worley proposed covering the road with a large platform for about four city blocks. “That’s the solution,” Loraas recalls saying. Through shortening the freeway and using the resources for the covers, the idea received support from federal transportation officials and powerful Duluth Congressman John Blatnik. Ultimately, three different deck parks were built, including one that saved Duluth’s historic rose garden. “The solution cleaned up the whole stretch of land along the lake,” says Loraas.

While construction costs for deck parks can be painfully high, there is also an upside: the land itself is generally free, made available as air rights by the state transportation agency. In center-city locations, this can amount to a multimillion-dollar gift. Land near the Santa Ana Freeway by Los Angeles City Hall, for instance, goes for $2 million to $3 million an acre ($4.94 million to $7.41 million per ha). In near-downtown San Diego, by Balboa Park, an acre is worth up to $13 million ($32 million per ha).

Regardless of cost, the forces driving—and making feasible—most deck parks is the opportunity for private development and redevelopment around them. In Trenton, for instance, the New Jersey Department of Transportation spent $150 million on the new 6.5-acre (2.6-ha) Riverwalk deck over U.S. 29, linking the city to the Delaware River. In response, notes Trenton planning director Andrew Carten, “The project resulted in a significant spike in interest in and the sale prices of property. After all, would you rather look over 600 trucks barreling past every day, or a scenic park and river?” One lot, worth $120,000 before construction, was developed with six housing units that sold for $200,000 each. The existence of the park also helped attract a new 82-unit market-rate residential building.

Projects where freeways are already below grade are much more feasible than others, and there are four particularly high-prospect opportunities in major downtowns today in St. Louis, Dallas, Cincinnati, and San Diego. In St. Louis, one of Mayor Francis Slay’s top priorities is the “three-block solution,” a plan to cover a portion of I-70 between center city

and the Gateway Arch. “We’re trying to get the annual 3 million visitors to the Arch into downtown St. Louis,” says Peter Sortino, president of the St. Louis–based Danforth Foundation, which is handling the planning. “We’re also trying to help those already downtown more easily reach the Arch and the Mississippi riverfront.” An early rough estimate put the cost at a minimum of $40 million.


Cincinnati faces the identical situation.

An interstate highway, Fort Washington Way, blocks downtown from the Ohio River and the city’s two new sports stadiums. However, there the political will has not yet solidified. Cincinnati had an opportunity to construct

a five-block-long park deck during a recent reconstruction (and road narrowing), but opted not to because of cost. As a compromise, the new Fort Washington Way was equipped with $10 million worth of steel pilings capable of supporting a future park. (Adding the park deck is estimated to cost $46 million.)

Dallas, on the other hand, is fired up about the opportunity of building a park over a stretch of the Woodall-Rodgers Freeway. The freeway separates the city’s downtown and arts district from the Uptown neighborhood, and a three-block park cover is seen as both improving the urban form and opening up new opportunities for development. An existing trolley line would run through the park and condominium towers are expected to flank it on both sides. The park’s price tag is estimated to exceed $60 million, but ardent boosters are seeking to raise one-third of that from private sources.

Downtown interests in San Diego are in the early stages of evaluating decking a few blocks of I-5 so as to link with Balboa Park. The city is in the midst of an unprecedented center-city residential construction boom, and the highway presents a major barrier for the thousands of apartment dwellers who have little access to green space.

Despite the cost of a park deck, there are numerous sources of local, state, and federal funds to cobble together, particularly if an analysis shows that associated development will generate significantly more tax revenue. One direct approach is to create a tax increment financing (TIF) district, whereby future increased tax revenue is used to pay back the costs of the deck park. (Chicago used a TIF as partial funding for Millennium Park, which was built over railroad tracks.) Other local funding sources include general public works capital funds, revenue from another form of a special tax district, or municipal bonds. (Seattle’s “Forward Thrust” bond paid 20 percent of the cost of Freeway Park.) Often, the deck superstructure is paid for by the federal government, while actual park development is financed by the city. (Phoenix, for example, spent $5 million landscaping Hance Park.)

On the federal level, several decks were built using the transportation department’s interstate construction program, but that no longer exists. At present, a state can use national highway system or surface transportation program funds (although only at the time of road construction, not as an after-the-fact retrofit). The transportation enhancement program conceivably could be used if the project provides pedestrian and bicycle facilities and landscaping and scenic beautification. In addition, while the community development block grant (CDBG) program has shrunk since Seattle used it for Freeway Park in the 1970s, it is still also available.

State transportation funding may be available, too. The Trenton project involved reconstruction of a New Jersey highway, and the state transportation department paid for it. In Duluth, the Minnesota department of transportation contributed 10 percent of the cost. Private funding also can play a role. In Cincinnati, for instance, 20 percent of the narrowing of Fort Washington Way was financed through private dollars, including $250,000 from the Cincinnati Bengals.

The real key to a successful highway park deck is the economic spin-off that is generated. With a deck costing as much as $500 per square foot ($5,380 per sq m) to build, it must be carefully justified through its potential impact as a redevelopment tool for surrounding real estate. Only then will the rate of return show both public and private funding sources the value of the investment.

Many years ago, urbanist and public intellectual Lewis Mumford said, “Forget the damned motor car and build the cities for lovers and friends.” Constructing parks over freeways does not forget the automobile, but, if done right, it offers some help to lovers and friends. That is a combination that could make political leaders happy.

Peter Harnik is director of the Center for City Park Excellence of the Trust for Public Land, and author of Inside City Parks. Ben Welle is a program assistant with the center. (A condensed version of this article was published in the January issue of Governing Magazine.)

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PostJul 06, 2010#112

Gone Corporate wrote:^ Question: One of the design firms working with the Arch Grounds Redux positioned themselves for their work uniting parkland in Downtown Seattle around an interstate highway that cuts through their city. Any idea if this would be the same highway mentioned in the article? And in conjunction with the Arch Grounds Redux plans underway, could this group's retention be a harbinger for progress on the City to River idea?
I got the feeling that they "embraced" traffic because they had to. I can't imagine anyone designing a sculpture park and proposing that an interstate highway be built next to it.

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PostJul 07, 2010#113

Went to Fair St. Louis on the 4th (mainly to visualize the boulevard)and saw many frustrated tourists wanting to know how to cross the highway on foot. I managed to get a couple families to write down the City to River website: Who knows if they actually visited. Personally, it was one of the worst experiences I've had downtown because of the highway. If I had been a first-time visitor, I would not be visiting this area of St. Louis again. Dig that sucker up!

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PostJul 07, 2010#114

^^ Weiss/Manfredi have said on multiple occasions, including the local "Meet the Teams" event, that they are "kind of crazy about barriers". Below are my short notes from that event. Of course the Olympic Park solution was site-specific, as any good design is, but what's different about this team is that they've spoken of the upside to existing infrastructure, making many believe that they will be the most reluctant to entirely remove I-70. We don't know what the teams are going to propose, but several others have spoken over and over again about how the built infrastructure around the Arch is the problem and their priority is the "human experience."
Marian provided the most interesting comments by describing the team as "kind of crazy about barriers." She focused on the interplay of transportation components and what she thinks barriers and traffic can add to a site. She stated, "a new environment under ramps and highways is possible." It's clear that the team would embrace the site's barriers. The primary project she displayed was Olympic Park in downtown Seattle, a park that straddles a busy thoroughfare, leaving 80% of the central park as an impassable barrier. Going full in, Marian concluded by saying, "highways and trains are kind of wonderful, they add energy...(referring to Olympic Park) you can see here, we are experts at spanning highways."

PostJul 07, 2010#115

In St. Louis, one of Mayor Francis Slay’s top priorities is the “three-block solution,” a plan to cover a portion of I-70 between center city

and the Gateway Arch. “We’re trying to get the annual 3 million visitors to the Arch into downtown St. Louis,” says Peter Sortino, president of the St. Louis–based Danforth Foundation, which is handling the planning. “We’re also trying to help those already downtown more easily reach the Arch and the Mississippi riverfront.” An early rough estimate put the cost at a minimum of $40 million.
And this was before we knew the Mississippi River Bridge would be built and carry I-70 traffic north of downtown. To be sure, a lot has been invested in the "three-block solution", but things have changed and a 20-block solution is available. Hopefully we take it.

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PostJul 07, 2010#116

Alex Ihnen wrote:
In St. Louis, one of Mayor Francis Slay’s top priorities is the “three-block solution,” a plan to cover a portion of I-70 between center city

and the Gateway Arch. “We’re trying to get the annual 3 million visitors to the Arch into downtown St. Louis,” says Peter Sortino, president of the St. Louis–based Danforth Foundation, which is handling the planning. “We’re also trying to help those already downtown more easily reach the Arch and the Mississippi riverfront.” An early rough estimate put the cost at a minimum of $40 million.
And this was before we knew the Mississippi River Bridge would be built and carry I-70 traffic north of downtown. To be sure, a lot has been invested in the "three-block solution", but things have changed and a 20-block solution is available. Hopefully we take it.

Thank you for clarifying that.

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PostJul 08, 2010#117

Alex Ihnen wrote:And this was before we knew the Mississippi River Bridge would be built and carry I-70 traffic north of downtown. To be sure, a lot has been invested in the "three-block solution", but things have changed and a 20-block solution is available. Hopefully we take it.
The way our city leaders speak of the plans to revive the Gateway Arch grounds, you'd think they're oblivious to the fact that Interstate 70's relocation makes the removal of the depressed and elevated sections through downtown possible. I'm very glad City to River is working hard to influence people's perceptions of how much better our linkage to the riverfront could be with an at-grade boulevard in place of the current I-70 alignment, and I hope their effort is successful. Still, I cannot help but worry that our leaders are going to play it safe as they have done many times in the past.

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PostJul 08, 2010#118

If this opportunity is missed, it will hold the city's potential back for another 50 years. :evil:

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PostJul 29, 2010#119

A mention by Ray Hartmann in the latest St. Louis Magazine:
http://urbanstl.com/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=18

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PostJul 29, 2010#120

There was a mention yesterday in the STLToday Road Crew chat. Modot rep basically said "we're not thinking about it, but what do you do with all that traffic?"

Typical bureaucrat stance. Can't think outside the little box they build.

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PostJul 29, 2010#121

jmstokes wrote:There was a mention yesterday in the STLToday Road Crew chat. Modot rep basically said "we're not thinking about it, but what do you do with all that traffic?"

Typical bureaucrat stance. Can't think outside the little box they build.
We live under a tyranny of engineers.

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PostJul 29, 2010#122

Before the 1960's, before the depressed lanes existed, back when the city of St. Louis was a lot bigger, how did traffic get from North to South.

All what traffic? It should be quite a bit less once I-70 is diverted across the new bridge. What did they do with all the I-64 traffic when it was shut down for 2 years? It evaporated into the surrounding connections. Depressed lane traffic would do the same -- drivers would take Grand, Tucker, and other streets that are currently way underutilized, since they were designed to support a city of 700K or so, back when there were not interstate highways.

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PostJul 29, 2010#123

Being an engineer, I can see their point of view. They are the ones who ultimately take the blame if it doesn't work. If they remove I-70 and it becomes a traffic nightmare (which I don't think will happen), they will take responsibility because it is their territory.

They mentioned in that chat an estimated 50000 - 70000 cars use that stretch of highway. I've heard on this forum, that Kingshighway is estimated to carry about 50000. Can anyone tell me what time frame these numbers reference? Is this over a 24 hour period, a few hours a day, 6AM to 6PM?

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PostJul 29, 2010#124

jmstokes wrote:There was a mention yesterday in the STLToday Road Crew chat. Modot rep basically said "we're not thinking about it, but what do you do with all that traffic?"

Typical bureaucrat stance. Can't think outside the little box they build.
Here is the text of the chat with MODOT's comment:
Patrick: I'm sure you are well aware of the City to River plan for removing part of I-70 downtown. I believe MoDOT's stance on it is that if people can prove it is feasible and traffic can still flow properly, they are not opposed to it.

So are there any plans to do a traffic study of a possible I-70 removal? And how do you go about doing a traffic study of that area?

I know there are a lot of other obstacles involved (money being a big one I'm sure) if we're going to remove part of the highway. But if we can show that having just Memorial Drive can work, then I don't see why we wouldn't want to improve the face of downtown by taking out the highway.

Thanks.
Linda Wilson, Todd Waelterman and David Wrone: We are involved in the Arch plans. MoDOT's District Engineer sits on the technical advisory committee. The issue is there will be 50-70,000 cars who still need to go from the new I-70 Mississippi River Bridge to the Poplar Street bridge. Our position is there has to be a plan for what to do with all those cars before anyone can consider removing I-70. There is a lot of traffic going in and out of downtown and all of the main downtown street grid and one-way streets move cars to and from I-70, so all of that would have to be reworked. Lastly, there is a lot of traffic that is taking I-70 to I-55 to go north and south. If you take this away, then only I-270 exists connecting north and south parts of the region. It's a lot to consider. MoDOT is not starting a study at this time. The Arch competition is still in the discussion phase.

Linda Wilson
MoDOT

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PostJul 29, 2010#125

Surgeons do surgery.

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