urbanSTL

Welcome to the City of St. Louis! A new technology? Let's regulate it! Never mind that no one has complained about it -- let's anticipate their complaints and impose regulatory burdens on local businesses!!!

old "woe is me St. Louis" chatter... cities like San Francisco and LA have banned them on sidewalks and some parks. I suppose, with a lot of congestion, people can get hurt. I don't understand what the problem would be in Forest Park though. Yes, tons of people, but lots of bikers too.. If a segway is "dangerous" so is a bike...

they offer several classes at the science center, including the 1.5 hour segway 101, and advanced class, and also a segway obstical course...

Segway Courses



Whether it's your first experience or you're a Segway Pro, we have a Segway program for you! Glide along on a Segway Human Transporter balanced by the technology that keeps the space station level. Learn the basics in Segway 101 or experience the challenge of maneuvering "Behind the Scenes," through the museum's nooks and crannies. For those more adventurous souls, you can test your skills on the all-new challenge course in "Meet the Challenge."

http://www.slsc.org/content.aspx?id=401

Segways seem to work just fine in Millenium Park. If they are unregulated in Chicago's Millenium Park, what makes us so unique? If there have been no complaints regarding Segways, why institute such a restriction that limits competition? If there are problems in the future, deal with them then. This proposed rule seems a bit stinky.

innov8ion wrote:Segways seem to work just fine in Millenium Park. If they are unregulated in Chicago's Millenium Park, what makes us so unique?

The bike bath is narrow.



Anytime you have Segway tour groups, you're forcing someone into oncoming bike path traffic, be it either a bicyclist who has to pass four or more Segways, or a group of inexperienced Segway riders. There will be a major accident, sooner or later.



I have no problem with Segways in the park (even on the sidewalks). But commercial Segway tours on the bike path should be prohibited.

Well, the value of the bill is that it will let there be a discussion about the murkiest part of the current law -- and a resolution one way or the other. Can Segways legally be on city sidewalks? Right now, that answer isn't clear.



Want to ban hazards on those trails? Make those moms and dads on blades pushing strollers go uphill instead of downhill.

innov8ion wrote:Segways seem to work just fine in Millenium Park. If they are unregulated in Chicago's Millenium Park, what makes us so unique? If there have been no complaints regarding Segways, why institute such a restriction that limits competition? If there are problems in the future, deal with them now. This proposed rule seems a bit stinky.

Shheeeeesh. I agree. Stinky at best.

This is idiotic. Why would you want to stop people from seeing and experiencing the city. Not to mention damage a local business. According to their website they have ONE tour a day in Forest Park on Friday, Saturday and Sunday for about half the year. That means there are about 70 tours through the park in a WHOLE year. OH MY GOD. They will undoubtedly knock over every bike rider while killing several small children. Please. God forbid progress be encouraged rather that prevented.

MCreek05 wrote: Why would you want to stop people from seeing and experiencing the city.

Nobody would. Let the commerical Segway tours use the roads and sidewalks througout Forest Park and the City. Just not a narrow bike path full of bicylists and inline skaters.

MCreek05 wrote: According to their website they have ONE tour a day in Forest Park on Friday, Saturday and Sunday for about half the year. That means there are about 70 tours through the park in a WHOLE year. OH MY GOD.

The whole point of the board bill, and this thread, is that there are new companies trying to enter the market and provide tours on the path.

MCreek05 wrote: They will undoubtedly knock over every bike rider while killing several small children.

One torn ACL is bad enough. Especially if it's mine.



MCreek05, How about allowing Vespa tours on the bike path? We'll limit them to 15 miles per hour, of course. You know, so they can see and experience the city. Is there a logical way to prohibit Vespas and permit Segways? They're both motor scooters.

MCreek05 wrote: God forbid progress be encouraged rather that prevented.

Wow. Good argument. You got me there.

MCreek05 wrote: This is idiotic.

Agreed. Why in hell do you need a tour for the bike path. It's a freaking circle! Start in one direction and keep going. There's your tour.

Roy314 wrote:

MCreek05 wrote: Why would you want to stop people from seeing and experiencing the city.

Nobody would. Let the commerical Segway tours use the roads and sidewalks througout Forest Park and the City. Just not a narrow bike path full of bicylists and inline skaters.

Huh? Bicyclists and inline skaters are no more important than Segway riders or those who walk. Segways take up a small footprint and are specifically designed for sidewalk usage. Something tells me the Segways on tours won't be operating side by side. Front to back and there's no problem. It's common sense.



I'd like to know how much the Science Center, those connected with it, or the Forest Park entity contributes to the St. Louis political machine. Something tells me it is more than any other Segway business. This looks dirty...



Discussions aren't needed unless there is a problem first and there doesn't appear to be one other than some ambiguity about the legality of Segways on our city sidewalks. If you want to discuss the higher question of Segway usage on city sidewalks, do that. Just don't screw with something that doesn't need fixed.



Please don't enact laws that make it more expensive to enjoy Forest Park in a simple yet novel way. $70 for a Segway tour of Forest Park? Who's going to pay for that chicanery? Competition is needed and last time I checked we don't live in a fascist state.



I think our aldermen should work on more pressing problems. Like how about addressing ordinance 65138 first, the ordinance that may outlaw Segways on city sidewalks in the first place? Ref: http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/ords/data/ord5138.htm. This is a joke.

innov8ion wrote: Huh? Bicyclists and inline skaters are no more important than Segway riders or those who walk.

And Segway riders are no more important than Vespas riders. What is the difference between allowing Segways and allowing Vespas?

innov8ion wrote: Segways take up a small footprint and are specifically designed for sidewalk usage.

Sounds good to me. Let them use any sidewalk they want. Just not the bike path. It's one of the few places in the City where people can exercise without fear of getting run over.

Roy314 wrote:

innov8ion wrote: Huh? Bicyclists and inline skaters are no more important than Segway riders or those who walk.

And Segway riders are no more important than Vespas riders. What is the difference between allowing Segways and allowing Vespas?

Vespas are clearly not allowed to operate on sidewalks. The city ordinance disallowing motorized scooters is specifically meant to outlaw vehicles such as the Vespa on sidewalks (and motorized skateboards, apparently.) I think it's time the city take a stand regarding Segways and city ordinance 65138 instead of skirting the issue and creating additional laws that may be in conflict with those already on the books.

Roy314 wrote:

innov8ion wrote: Segways take up a small footprint and are specifically designed for sidewalk usage.

Sounds good to me. Let them use any sidewalk they want. Just not the bike path. It's one of the few places in the City where people can exercise without fear of getting run over.

I don't understand the rationale. Segways can travel at bike speeds or slower. Bike path or sidewalk, it seems to be all good. I'm pretty sure there are bike accidents in the park yet no one is creating laws precluding their usage.



Ooh, technology is scary... What will those darn scientists and entrepreneurs think of next? The world, as we know it, will be shattered.

innov8ion wrote: I don't understand the rationale. Segways can travel at bike speeds or slower. Bike path or sidewalk, it seems to be all good. I'm pretty sure there are bike accidents in the park yet no one is creating laws precluding their usage.

Here's the rationale. With commerical Segways tours on the bike path, you have groups of four, five, six or more Segway riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the Segway group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



I'll say it again. Segways are fine by me. I don't think we should ban them from sidewalks as did San Francisco. And New York. And England.



But commerical Segways tours should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the City for people trying to exercise without getting run over.

innov8ion wrote: Ooh, technology is scary... What will those darn scientists and entrepreneurs think of next?

Hopefully something more useful than a new and improved motor scooter.

Not sure where I stand on this issue... and I have seen many groups on bicycles that are more than 5 people long and traveling slow...



Also, just imagine if they just invented the AIRPLANE.

"Yes, this machine will allow us to sit in an aluminum tube all packed inside going 550 mph"



Do you really think the US would allow such crazy contraption in todays age?

zink wrote: Do you really think the US would allow such crazy contraption in todays age?

Not on the bike path I hope.

Roy314 wrote:

innov8ion wrote: I don't understand the rationale. Segways can travel at bike speeds or slower. Bike path or sidewalk, it seems to be all good. I'm pretty sure there are bike accidents in the park yet no one is creating laws precluding their usage.

Here's the rationale. With commerical Segways tours on the bike path, you have groups of four, five, six or more Segway riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the Segway group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



But commerical Segways tours should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the City for people trying to exercise without getting run over.

No, here's the rationale. With bikes on the bike path, you can have groups of four, five, six or more bike riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike or Segway without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the bike group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



Therefore, bikes should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the city for people trying to enjoy the park without getting run over.

I think it's time the city take a stand regarding Segways and city ordinance 65138 instead of skirting the issue and creating additional laws that may be in conflict with those already on the books.

They did. They decided that the current ordinance prohibits the use of Segways on city sidewalks and the park trails. The proposed ordinance (i.e., "creating additional laws") is an opportunity for the Board of Aldermen to change that prohibition.

innov8ion wrote:

Roy314 wrote:

innov8ion wrote: I don't understand the rationale. Segways can travel at bike speeds or slower. Bike path or sidewalk, it seems to be all good. I'm pretty sure there are bike accidents in the park yet no one is creating laws precluding their usage.

Here's the rationale. With commerical Segways tours on the bike path, you have groups of four, five, six or more Segway riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the Segway group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



But commerical Segways tours should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the City for people trying to exercise without getting run over.

No, here's the rationale. With bikes on the bike path, you can have groups of four, five, six or more bike riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike or Segway without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the bike group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



Therefore, bikes should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the city for people trying to enjoy the park without getting run over.

Wow, that was a pretty sweet come back!



Plus... bikes are shaped by arrows... I dont know who designed those things but if you get hit by those things it would hurt!

People on Segways look tragicomically absurd and deserve to be mocked.



I just thought I'd add to the discussion by stating that.



Also, with the shape some of the sidewalks are in, Segwaying on them would be pretty dangerous

throatybeard wrote:Also, with the shape some of the sidewalks are in, Segwaying on them would be pretty dangerous

More reader education.



http://www.segway.com/support/safety-studies.php



- Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec (CEVEQ)

Second Phase –Pilot Project for Evaluating the Segway HT in Real Conditions (PDF)



The Second Phase of the two-phase report detailed use of the Segway PT by 143 participants who rode more than 9,000 total kilometers on sidewalks, paths, and roadway shoulders, in three major cities located in the Province of Quebec. The report noted that no incident or serious injury, nor any Segway PT/pedestrian collision or physical interference, was reported during the evaluation. Upon completion the study “Recommendations” indicate that Segway PTs should be allowed to operate on urban pedestrian areas and that such use will have little impact on user safety and still less on the safety of pedestrians, cyclists, motorists and other walkway users.



- Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec (CEVEQ)

First Phase –Pilot Project for Evaluating Motorized Personal Transportation Devices (PDF)



The first phase of the two-phase report detailed information discovered during the evaluation of motorized personal transportation devices (MPTD) specifically, the ergonomic, operational and technical aspects of the devices. Findings included that the Segway PT was very stable and gave users a feeling of being in control. Also, Segway PTs compared favorably to other types of devices and were far superior in the area of stability as compared to bicycles and mopeds. Lastly the report noted that the Segway PT could meet a large number of mobility requirements for a broad market, could facilitate transfers to other forms of transportation, and serve as an alternative to automobiles.



- Victoria Transport Policy Institute

Managing Personal Mobility Devices (PMDs) On Nonmotorized Facilities PDF)



This study researched the use of various personal mobility devices such as electric scooters, powered wheelchairs and Segway PTs on non-motorized infrastructure including sidewalks and bike lanes/paths. Overall the study found that Segway PTs would have medium impact or risk to others (namely pedestrians), the same which was found true of joggers and runners. As a comparison, bicycles were found to have medium to large impact or risk to others.



- German Federal Board for Road Traffic - Segway in Public Spaces (PDF)



The three-month study was conducted by the German government in conjunction with the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Ministry of Commerce of the Saarland, Saarbruken Police Department, and Municipal Office of Neunkirchen. Results for braking, steering and general handling of the device were very favorable. The study also reports that Segway PTs are best suited for bicycle lanes and pedestrian traffic areas.



http://www.news.com/Segway-safer-than-y ... 85529.html

"The road conditions don't matter: They handle extremely well on steep hills in wet (Seattle), sandy (Phoenix/Tucson), and even ice and snow (Boston). I've seen the things go down steep sandy embankments while riders stay upright. I've seen them zip up sidewalks that were covered with ice. No tires slipped; it was amazing!



Even if you run full speed into someone, at a whopping 12.5 mph, which isn't likely on a busy sidewalk, the handlebar will hit the person first, causing the Segway to upright itself and making it stop faster than anyone on a bike or skateboard or even a fast jogger ever could. Again, even at 12.5 mph this isn't a big deal.



If you run over someone's foot, it doesn't hurt--the tires are wide enough that no damage will be done. Take your weight, divide it by half, and add 40 pounds for half the weight of a Segway. For me, that's a total 115 pounds over a wide tire surface. In the training classes, they sometimes have you hold your foot out while they run over it to show you that it's not a big deal at all."

Thanks innova8ion. I've been wondering all day where the "Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec" stood on this issue.



We'll have to let England, New York, and San Francisco fight it out with the CEVEQ on this one. As I've said before, I'm OK with Segways on sidewalks. But the topic of the thread is Segway Tours, so maybe we should get back to that.

innov8ion wrote:
No, here's the rationale. With bikes on the bike path, you can have groups of four, five, six or more bike riders on the path. In a row. You can't pass them on a bike or Segway without steering into oncoming traffic for 20 seconds or so. If the bike group needs to pass a runner, then they have to steer into oncoming traffic. All six or so of them.



Therefore, bikes should not be allowed on the bike path. It's a rare refuge in the city for people trying to enjoy the park without getting run over.

Of course, the bike path was built with the specific purpose of providing a place for bicyclists to ride without interference from motorized vehicles.



But what the hell. Let's turn it into a little road for tour groups of motorized vehicles. Since Segway is simply a brand of motor scooter, we'll have to let other motor scooter on the bike path (including all the inevitable cheaper Segway knock-offs without all the patented balance control mechanisms). But I'm sure we're all OK with that.

Roy314 wrote:
Of course, the bike path was built with the specific purpose of providing a place for bicyclists to ride without interference from motorized vehicles.



But what the hell. Let's turn it into a little road for tour groups of motorized vehicles. Since Segway is simply a brand of motor scooter, we'll have to let other motor scooter on the bike path (including all the inevitable cheaper Segway knock-offs without all the patented balance control mechanisms). But I'm sure we're all OK with that.

The Segway is not a brand of motor scooter. They are described as motorized personal transportation devices (MPTD) or personal mobility devices (PMD). Of course you know the difference between such a device and a Vespa for example. They are far safer than bicycles and motor scooters and are environmentally sound.



We disagree regarding Segways on bike trails and that is fine. I have shown evidence they are fit and safe for them while you have seemed not to. Are you scared of the boogey-man too?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

innov8ion wrote:

throatybeard wrote:Also, with the shape some of the sidewalks are in, Segwaying on them would be pretty dangerous

More reader education.

I was talking about the busted-up sidewalks posing a threat to the segway.

^ That argument is tired given Segways are hardier than bikes. If it is good enough for a bike, it is good enough for a Segway. They can easily handle anything Forest Park's trails pose.