^Yeah, people like to comment on the "failure" of Union Station, but it really was very successful for quite a few years. I think that's the way these things go these days...a couple of good decades, then time to re-invent the concept. I think developers and bankers understand that, and build it into their business and financial plans.
From the article:quincunx wrote: ↑Feb 10, 2020Stl Mag - City Foundry STL food hall slated for mid-summer opening
https://www.stlmag.com/dining/city-foun ... mmer-2020/
"Parking at City Foundry is in a 500-space, multi-level lot across from the food hall (with supplemental lots to the east and west), and parking in all lots is free. The main entrance (off Vandeventer, across from Ikea) feeds into the main lot or to a valet, ride-sharing, and drop-off circle. “More parking options mean more convenience,” Smith says. “One lot might appeal more depending on your destination and the time of day.”"
Wow, smh. So...not only does this project require a free parking space for each and every potential visitor, it needs multiple, evenly-distributed free spaces throughout the site per visitor, so that if and when they choose to visit, they will have parking...options!
- 2,631
The free parking is frustrating, but in a development like this I understand it. It is arguable that paid parking is exactly what killed Union Station Mall. STL is a car centric city and the harsh reality is that when considering where to spend their money, they will choose free parking over paid parking. Especially when you consider Fresh Thyme (how many grocery stores can you think of in the region without some form of free parking? Not a lot I would presume)
What needs to be done is to getting this project connected to the greenway system and Grand Metrolink station. Hopefully in time as the neighborhood continues to densify and the free parking will become naturally untenable. Then we can think about replacing it with development or paid parking. In the meantime, the Foundry has plenty of space for parking that would otherwise be nothing.
What needs to be done is to getting this project connected to the greenway system and Grand Metrolink station. Hopefully in time as the neighborhood continues to densify and the free parking will become naturally untenable. Then we can think about replacing it with development or paid parking. In the meantime, the Foundry has plenty of space for parking that would otherwise be nothing.
- 2,056
Yeah - let's hope this project spurs some heavy development in the area and then they can drop an office or apartment building right on top of a few of those parking lots.
^ Yeah, some of the renderings (and the existing physical model) show additional buildings (and a parking garage) on the west side of the site as part of a planned future phase.
Not sure if this will spur development or not but I do think the long term viability is absolutely depending on continued continued CORTEX development, Foundry phase II, Cortex K and the connection/continued Armory development and not parking. I also think it will help Foundry connectivity to SLU/Grand Center as well if FPP and Grand Ave becomes an at grade intersection sooner than later.pattimagee wrote: ↑Feb 11, 2020Yeah - let's hope this project spurs some heavy development in the area and then they can drop an office or apartment building right on top of a few of those parking lots.
In the meantime, sand crawler breaking ground and Wash U neuroscience building not far behind is a plus.
- 2,929
Damn insightful...GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Feb 11, 2020The free parking is frustrating, but in a development like this I understand it. It is arguable that paid parking is exactly what killed Union Station Mall. STL is a car centric city and the harsh reality is that when considering where to spend their money, they will choose free parking over paid parking. Especially when you consider Fresh Thyme (how many grocery stores can you think of in the region without some form of free parking? Not a lot I would presume)
What needs to be done is to getting this project connected to the greenway system and Grand Metrolink station. Hopefully in time as the neighborhood continues to densify and the free parking will become naturally untenable. Then we can think about replacing it with development or paid parking. In the meantime, the Foundry has plenty of space for parking that would otherwise be nothing.
Why did Union Station and St. Louis Centre fail so spectacularly?
1. Other malls in the suburbs were perfectly good substitute offerings as retail centers.
2. Suburban malls had the competitive advantage of not requiring paid parking!
I really believe that, if not for having to pay for parking, retail shoppers in STL would have continued shopping at Union Station through today. We have to recognize that there's a sizable number of people in the STL region who don't go into Downtown because they can't grasp the concept of paying for parking. Hell, even Clayton has a lot of people shying away because parking comes at a premium.
Yes, it sucks that City Foundry needs free parking, but that's the way it is here. The developers recognize that this is necessary to successfully bring in suburbanites, even some City residents, to the site. And, with free parking on the table, I see this project being successful for the long term. Meanwhile, I live relatively close, and I'll be walking to the Alamo when it opens.
- 1,792
I agree. People are irrational about paying for things like parking.gone corporate wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Damn insightful...GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Feb 11, 2020The free parking is frustrating, but in a development like this I understand it. It is arguable that paid parking is exactly what killed Union Station Mall. STL is a car centric city and the harsh reality is that when considering where to spend their money, they will choose free parking over paid parking. Especially when you consider Fresh Thyme (how many grocery stores can you think of in the region without some form of free parking? Not a lot I would presume)
What needs to be done is to getting this project connected to the greenway system and Grand Metrolink station. Hopefully in time as the neighborhood continues to densify and the free parking will become naturally untenable. Then we can think about replacing it with development or paid parking. In the meantime, the Foundry has plenty of space for parking that would otherwise be nothing.
Why did Union Station and St. Louis Centre fail so spectacularly?
1. Other malls in the suburbs were perfectly good substitute offerings as retail centers.
2. Suburban malls had the competitive advantage of not requiring paid parking!
I really believe that, if not for having to pay for parking, retail shoppers in STL would have continued shopping at Union Station through today. We have to recognize that there's a sizable number of people in the STL region who don't go into Downtown because they can't grasp the concept of paying for parking. Hell, even Clayton has a lot of people shying away because parking comes at a premium.
Yes, it sucks that City Foundry needs free parking, but that's the way it is here. The developers recognize that this is necessary to successfully bring in suburbanites, even some City residents, to the site. And, with free parking on the table, I see this project being successful for the long term. Meanwhile, I live relatively close, and I'll be walking to the Alamo when it opens.
Even relatively cheap parking would turn a significant number of patrons away. IMHO Even free parking through validation at proof of purchase doesn't do it and certainly dissuades a lot of casual retail browsers. Example: If the Galleria (or almost any mall in the united states for that matter) decided to charge 1 dollar to park in its parking lot for an unlimited amount of time within a 24 hour period, I suspect a majority of patrons would spend gas to drive 15 minutes to an alternate mall and to buy things at a higher sales tax rate. Its not a rational calculation.
I will also say free parking downtown would be tough to do given the numbers of people living and working downtown. Not to mention cardinals games and convention, etc. All those spaces would fill up quickly and leave none left for the in and out patrons that retail thrives on. So retail is in between a rock and a hard place situation with parking downtown. Downtown has to work as a live/work/play district, because a retail focused mall concept probably can't be done.
Why incentivize a project that's dependent upon people driving in? If they're so easily turned away, it seems risky to bet on them coming in. They could turn away for some other reason than parking cost.
For City Foundry it might be worth the risk because it rehabbed a brownfield in a highly visible spot being a drag on development nearby.
I think a place would have to be really unique and reasonable assurance it'd remain that way to take the bet, like City Museum or Ikea.
For City Foundry it might be worth the risk because it rehabbed a brownfield in a highly visible spot being a drag on development nearby.
I think a place would have to be really unique and reasonable assurance it'd remain that way to take the bet, like City Museum or Ikea.
- 2,386
Because we haven't invested in any other methods of people getting anywhere via quick and accessible public transportation. I would love to have Chicago's rail system buzzing around all corners of the city but we don't. If we have any hope of getting one in the future, we have to spur/encourage/incentivize development in the city to the point where it warrants the investment to build a similar transit infrastructure.quincunx wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020Why incentivize a project that's dependent upon people driving in?
Ignoring that at current car transit and its associated parking needs is BY FAR the majority mode of transport for the region won't "make" people find alternative transportation methods. It will "make" people go elsewhere.
That's not a winning proposition for the city.
- 1,044
Three things killed St. Louis Centre, the redevelopment of Westroads into the Galleria which provided competition, the continual decline of the number of downtown office workers and finally the ridiculously extended length of time metrolink construction took while closing off nearby streets.
- 2,631
The only real solution for this is the city continuing to provide incremental changes to its built environment.
- Continue densifying the central corridor
- Continue bridging the gaps in the urban landscape with activity centers (The Foundry accomplishes this)
- Expand and improve bike and pedestrian infrastructure
- Improve bus service
- Continue to build out Metrolink system within city limits
- FREE TRANSIT?
Bit of a concerning article. Looks like they underestimated how much each food stall would cost to build out. Fortunately it looks like they were able to replace some of the departures with new tenants. They plan to open with 12-14 of the 20 total food slots filled.
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis ... toryPage=3
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis ... toryPage=3
- 2,056
I actually read that a little different than that... I think it sounded more like they swallowed some cost (knowing it was small potatoes for them) because they wanted to make sure these vendors succeed.
This is great though> "New recruits include Mike Johnson of Sugarfire Smoke House, the St. Louis-based barbecue chain, and Hi-Pointe Drive-In, as well as Paul and Wendy Hamilton, owners of Hamilton Hospitality, which operates Vin de Set, PW Pizza, Eleven Eleven Mississippi and other concepts. Smith says Johnson will open a burger stall while the Hamiltons will debut Pig Iron Pizza in addition to running a bar for the food hall."
This is great though> "New recruits include Mike Johnson of Sugarfire Smoke House, the St. Louis-based barbecue chain, and Hi-Pointe Drive-In, as well as Paul and Wendy Hamilton, owners of Hamilton Hospitality, which operates Vin de Set, PW Pizza, Eleven Eleven Mississippi and other concepts. Smith says Johnson will open a burger stall while the Hamiltons will debut Pig Iron Pizza in addition to running a bar for the food hall."
Are you sure you read the whole article? The link posted above is to page 3 of the article, but that isn't obvious unless you notice the "Page 3 of 3" text above the first pic... The first two pages of that article make the Food Hall situation sound like a complete clusterf*ck.pattimagee wrote: ↑Feb 19, 2020I actually read that a little different than that... I think it sounded more like they swallowed some cost (knowing it was small potatoes for them) because they wanted to make sure these vendors succeed.
This is great though> "New recruits include Mike Johnson of Sugarfire Smoke House, the St. Louis-based barbecue chain, and Hi-Pointe Drive-In, as well as Paul and Wendy Hamilton, owners of Hamilton Hospitality, which operates Vin de Set, PW Pizza, Eleven Eleven Mississippi and other concepts. Smith says Johnson will open a burger stall while the Hamiltons will debut Pig Iron Pizza in addition to running a bar for the food hall."
RFT - Full Text Link
- 2,056
Yep - that's exactly what I did.urbanitas wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2020Are you sure you read the whole article? The link posted above is to page 3 of the article, but that isn't obvious unless you notice the "Page 3 of 3" text above the first pic... The first two pages of that article make the Food Hall situation sound like a complete clusterf*ck.pattimagee wrote: ↑Feb 19, 2020I actually read that a little different than that... I think it sounded more like they swallowed some cost (knowing it was small potatoes for them) because they wanted to make sure these vendors succeed.
This is great though> "New recruits include Mike Johnson of Sugarfire Smoke House, the St. Louis-based barbecue chain, and Hi-Pointe Drive-In, as well as Paul and Wendy Hamilton, owners of Hamilton Hospitality, which operates Vin de Set, PW Pizza, Eleven Eleven Mississippi and other concepts. Smith says Johnson will open a burger stall while the Hamiltons will debut Pig Iron Pizza in addition to running a bar for the food hall."
RFT - Full Text Link
Thanks! Definitely stinks for those vendors... - 3,766
Fassler Hall looks like a good addition.
This will not help the struggling Hofbrauhaus-Belleville.
http://cityfoundrystl.com/directory/fassler-hall/
This will not help the struggling Hofbrauhaus-Belleville.
http://cityfoundrystl.com/directory/fassler-hall/
^ I wonder if this will impact UCBC's Grove Bierhall a bit too? That seems like the most comparable (and closest) competition.
- 6,120
^I doubt it. Looking at their menu the beer is all run of the mill imported stuff at heavily inflated prices. Urban Chestnut has nothing to worry about. Seven bucks for a pint of Warsteiner? Give me a break.
- 2,419
There's also a good chance that Fassler Hall will be serving UCBC bier. If they're smart, they will.
Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
- 6,120
^My above comments shouldn't be interpreted to mean that I think they'll fail. I expect they'll do all right, if only because the location will drive traffic to them. But I expect it will be a quite different crowd than UCBC; maybe more of a lunch crowd and probably less of a late night destination crowd. And yes, they'll surely do better if they serve the local brews, which are by and in large world's ahead of what they have on their online menu. That said, I'm a little sad it's a big out of state chain, rather than something more local.
Hey, nothing says authentic German sausage and beer hall like a 10-year-old culture-themed-restaurant-concept chain from Tulsa, Oklahoma! It's a good thing too, otherwise how would us St. Louisans know what German culture was like.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020^My above comments shouldn't be interpreted to mean that I think they'll fail. I expect they'll do all right, if only because the location will drive traffic to them. But I expect it will be a quite different crowd than UCBC; maybe more of a lunch crowd and probably less of a late night destination crowd. And yes, they'll surely do better if they serve the local brews, which are by and in large world's ahead of what they have on their online menu. That said, I'm a little sad it's a big out of state chain, rather than something more local.
Youtube - They have German beer!
Yeah, having been to the one in Tulsa when they first opened, I don't really get it. I guess it's the equivalent of ethnic food at the mall.urbanitas wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020Hey, nothing says authentic German sausage and beer hall like a 10-year-old culture-themed-restaurant-concept chain from Tulsa, Oklahoma! It's a good thing too, otherwise how would us St. Louisans know what German culture was like.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020^My above comments shouldn't be interpreted to mean that I think they'll fail. I expect they'll do all right, if only because the location will drive traffic to them. But I expect it will be a quite different crowd than UCBC; maybe more of a lunch crowd and probably less of a late night destination crowd. And yes, they'll surely do better if they serve the local brews, which are by and in large world's ahead of what they have on their online menu. That said, I'm a little sad it's a big out of state chain, rather than something more local.
Youtube - They have German beer!
- 9,559
Ive been to the Little Rock location and i dont see much of a difference from it and the Grove UBC. (other than the food)eee123 wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020Yeah, having been to the one in Tulsa when they first opened, I don't really get it. I guess it's the equivalent of ethnic food at the mall.urbanitas wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020Hey, nothing says authentic German sausage and beer hall like a 10-year-old culture-themed-restaurant-concept chain from Tulsa, Oklahoma! It's a good thing too, otherwise how would us St. Louisans know what German culture was like.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Feb 25, 2020^My above comments shouldn't be interpreted to mean that I think they'll fail. I expect they'll do all right, if only because the location will drive traffic to them. But I expect it will be a quite different crowd than UCBC; maybe more of a lunch crowd and probably less of a late night destination crowd. And yes, they'll surely do better if they serve the local brews, which are by and in large world's ahead of what they have on their online menu. That said, I'm a little sad it's a big out of state chain, rather than something more local.
Youtube - They have German beer!
- 6,120
^You didn't think the beer was different? Do they have more available than their online menu suggests? (A variety of Warsteiner and Spaten products at seven bucks to the half liter.)