urbanSTL

Regarding retail, what's there now or what will be there? Help me out. I can't find it. Maybe it's more interesting than I think!

What I've heard is that they need an opening date to actually court businesses like Zara, Patagonia, Reformation, Need Supply, etc (these were the rumored ones). They have unofficially booked <10 local retail shops to open a 2nd store in The Foundry... from what I've heard - that was pre-covid though. 

I did walk through the site a week or so ago. There are A LOT of spaces for retail - I was kind of surprised how many it actually was. But I think all of the big names they've booked so far (Fresh Thyme, Alamo, Punch Bowl, Buttler's Pantry, Food Court) should make their pitch better for these classic retail-type shops they'll be calling first. 

Before shot:

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 16, 2021

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑

Jun 16, 2021

I agree with you that we shouldn’t subsidize restaurants but I’m not so sure about retail.  The Metro area as a whole is probably over saturated with retail; however, the City is greatly under-retailed compared to the suburbs.  We shouldn’t have to drive to the suburbs to buy a pair of jeans.  We don’t even have something basic like an Old Navy.

How much city resident sales tax money is going to Brentwood, Maplewood and Richmond Heights? The complete insanity that is the Brentwood Promenade speaks to how those suburbs are sucking away city revenue.

And U. City soon...

^ and probably speaks to why those cities will fight any chance of city incorporated back into the county let alone merging.  

pattimagee wrote: ↑

Jun 16, 2021

also - was looking for this lil map. 36 retail bays (I'm assuming) on this one, and this is just one level. 
 

Thank you for that background!

Is it fair to say the retail here will be similar to a traditional suburban mall or the mid-80s incarnation of Union Station?

pattimagee wrote: ↑

Jun 16, 2021

also - was looking for this lil map. 36 retail bays (I'm assuming) on this one, and this is just one level. 
 

There's only one level of retail. 

Some of the tenants have multiple levels though, e.g. Alamo and Fassler Hall (if any).  I think the Punch Bowl space, or whatever concept goes in there, has a mezzanine as well.

In re-reading some of the original media coverage of the mid-80s redevelopment of Union Station, the comparisons to The City Foundry are rather stark. (Cannot say that’s surprising at all, mind you!) 
 
Union Station is (rightly) described as "mixed-used" with "retail," "restaurants" and "commercial/office space."  
 
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
 
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/met ... 1c9ae.html
 
This dude did a whole thesis on Union Station's rehab. 225 pages!.
https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream ... sequence=1
“The mixed use of the Union Station renovation presented a unique challenge to the Rouse Co. and its ability to broker successful commercial leases.”
 
Hoping for a better fate for City Foundry than Union Station saw with that original rehab.  (Fantasy land and all, but I still say that Ikea should have gone IN Union Station.)

^ GC,

I think you add the fact and one of the biggest advantages of Foundry over original Union Station redevelopment is that Phase II and future phases will be office, residential and even hotel.    The Foundry will be a much broader and diverse development with food hall & retail being a smaller part of the project in the long run 

As far as Union Station, agree with Soulardx in that putting Ikea under the shed would have been a better choice.  Especially in long run if CORTEX can keep its momentum going.  That being said, I hope LHM doesn't use its surface lots next to MLS practice fields for more attractions.   Get some solid mid rise mixed use residential infill going!!  or Enterprise Downtown IT campus!   Anything but more attractions in my opinion.  

gone corporate wrote: ↑

Jun 17, 2021

in re: Union Station... An anecdotal argument I've heard for its demise is that, generally speaking, Saint Louisans do not want to pay for parking. If a STL shopper had the choice between Union Station and the Galleria, the Galleria would win because it had plenty of free parking. Over time, the newness of Union Station declined, and any preference for it dissipated as each visit by a STL shopper meant they'd have to pay for parking there when there were plenty of comparable options (Galleria, South County, Northwest Plaza, Crestwood, Chesterfield, et.al.) where they could park for free. 

Yeah, that is a well-worn, hashed, and rehashed argument on this forum, going back to the beginning. The problem with anecdotal arguments is that they are by nature heavily-biased towards the belief system and preformed assumptions of the individuals passing them along.

The implicit problem that you identified isn't a parking issue. It is a retail strategy issue.

Everyone seems to forget that it wasn't just the Galleria and St. Clair Square expansions/renovations that opened around the same time as Union Station, but much more importantly, St. Louis Centre, "the largest indoor downtown shopping mall in the country".  They both heavily targeted the convention and office worker crowd (people for whom parking isn't an issue) with large food courts and restaurants geared to lunch and happy hour. They both had similar suburban mall chain stores. And they both more or less rolled up the sidewalks after 6pm - a much bigger competitive disadvantage with suburban malls than paid parking.

The anchor tenants at Union Station not long after they opened were: Banana Republic, Talbot's, Brookstone, B. Dalton, Houlihan's, and a couple of large restaurants around the south entrance. Much of the rest was nick nacks and gift stores. In other words, a small selection of the same stuff you would find at any suburban mall. If you look at other Rouse Company projects around the country, they were much more targeted to tourist and experience retail. I still to this day do not understand why they went with a mall retail strategy at Union Station.

There was also validated parking and free Metrolink between downtown stations for much of the period that Union Station was supposedly failing because of paid parking.

Plenty of similarities and differences to pick through between The Foundry and Union Station, Faneuil Hall, The Ferry Building (SF), Chelsea Market (NY), Eastern Market (DC), Soulard Market, The Loop, or any other urban retail agglomeration with some elements of mall/festival marketplace/farmers market/food hall. 

 One important strength for City Foundry will SLU. Having 12,000+ students and 2,000 faculty one block away, at a university that's never really had it's own coherent "university town" retail pocket and that has lost most of its mainstay campus bars in recent years (Humphrey's, Laclede Street, Library Annex) should provide some solid support, to underpin neighborhood residents, Cortex workers, IKEA  shoppers, etc... 

^^One last point about the Union Station comparison, which is also probably relevant to City Foundry's future:

People who only remember Union Station as a shabby, half-empty mall with nothing but t-shirt and souvenir stores, are probably unaware just how successful it was in the late '80s and '90s.  Even though it was at a huge competitive disadvantage as a regional mall it still held it's own for quite a while. Consider that most of the big name attractions moved in long after Union Station opened.  The Wehrenberg Union Station Cinema and Catch a Rising Star comedy club opened several years later. Hard Rock Cafe, Landry's, and Have A Nice Day Cafe opened over a decade later, when General Growth Properties took over management, and belatedly tried to turn it into the "festival marketplace" it was supposed to be originally.

All those big national names don't take on failing developments, and obviously didn't see a problem with paid parking.

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Jun 18, 2021

To tie it all together and bring it back to City Foundry:

Anyone remember who submitted the competing Union Station redevelopment proposal to LHM's carnival and aquarium after the foreclosure and US Bank fire sale?  Hint: Indoor water park...

Don't recall, but sounds like a Bob Cassilly thing to me!

Bigger picture, upon reading and reflecting more on what Urbanitas has added, City Foundry is Union Station 2.0, but in a way less beautiful wrapper.  

I loved Union Station well into the late 90s. It was still going strong then. Have A Nice Day Cafe was probably the hottest club downtown. In Feb. 2000, ran into many Rams players there, showing off their brand new SB rings.

Now, cue sad trombone, inserting some cynicism into a forum that's mostly optimistic. (Thank god. I need it!)

City Foundry is a mall (declining industry).  Brick-and-mortar retail (declining industry), a movie theater (declining industry) and food (*highly competative* local industry).  

Yes, TBD on commercial/office but, absent regional job growth, downtown STL/Cortex/Clayton doesn't need more competition for commercial/office.

The region just saw a decade of zero population growth. I don't think it's wise to throw our limited tax money at malls.  So, with tax $, rev-up the regional job growth strat instead. How? Again, above my pay grade. 

The reason I'm expecting City Foundry to do well is it's bringing all those things to an area that doesn't have them currently.

The city is a retail desert around Downtown / Midtown except for IKEA, nearest box store is Target way over on Hampton and the grocery store will be great for residents.

The movie theater is a first of it's kind in STL and will draw crowds from all over, and the theaters nearby are AMC Clayton, Moolah (is this still open?) and MX, none of which are as nice as a new Alamo.

As far as the food aspect you are right it's a very competitive market, but I think the offices, hotels across the street, future residential, and people who are shopping / coming out of a movie once the retail and Alamo Drafthouse open will provide a very steady stream of customers.

There is certainly potential for it to fail as COVID changed the game for everyone, and hit at the worst possible time for The Foundry delaying it's opening a full year when construction was just wrapping up when the pandemic started, but I'm optimistic it'll do well, it's just taking longer to get to that point, and the fact that the developer is rearing to go on Phase II already without Phase I even fully open is a good sign they believe in it as well.

I wouldn't say brick & mortar is declining despite the ongoing narrative. Indoor malls certainly are, but traditional retail isn't failing so much as adapting. Challenge for Foundry will be if they try to go heavy into soft goods - i.e. clothing - which is a tough market right now. The inward facing configuration can be tricky too as retailers typically don't like having minimal visibility to the street and anything that relies purely on destination traffic can fall apart quickly if it loses momentum.

One aspect that is very underestimated as it relates to the success is the sheer amount of traffic that IKEA brings in. Most successful retail developments feed off of dominant regional anchors. IKEA saw 125k visits in the month of May. That is a big number - comparable to most Targets, Walmarts and slightly below Costco. Because it's the only one in the market, it draws from a massive footprint.  No, the average IKEA shopper probably isn't walking across the street to shop at Foundry, but the presence of that level of retailer draws other retailers which helps sustain the tenancy. If IKEA wasn't there, then I doubt Fresh Thyme would be. Same with the proposed Top Golf a few blocks away, etc.

So Foundry is well positioned in that it can draw from nearby retail traffic, office (Cortex), medical and student, so it covers a pretty broad spectrum of potential users. I still think the configuration and ease of access may handcuff it a bit but it's a development that inherited a bizarre building setup, so not as easy as an out-of-ground build. 

People keep saying Alamo Drafthouse is something different the region doesn't have. Can someone explain to me what is different about it from any other theaters. I haven't exactly figured it out. Seems the same as other theaters with nicer seats and food at your seat (Ronnies, MX, AMC dine in). Although, I see the one on Creve Coeur closed. I am sure I am missing something but I don't see how it is some revolutionary thing. I have never been to one so I welcome comments about it.

Two other thoughts coming off jbacott and GC comments 

First, the greenway and specifically the trestle over Vande can't come fast enough now as things open up as it will make a pedestrian experience that much better from two big providers of foot traffic, the Ikea non meatball eaters who might entertain food court/retail/entertainment into their Ikea trip and the CORTEX crowd that should only grow.    Throw in a future pedestrian crossing/greenway extension to more Armory development will help as well.  and finally, strengthen the grid and connection to SLU by making FPP & Grand an at grade intersection.  

Second, no one likes the garage but in the long term that space & the corresponding retail bays will one day be ripe for a phase III or IV whether it be more office or another residential development that will hopefully tie in FPP a lot better..    

To Jshank83 comments, I agree.  Most entertainment places like to argue their uniqueness but at end of day the new guy on the block is not offering anything much different then the guy down the street.  But at end of day, I think Foundry success is well grounded with its mix, how it intends to build out future phases and finally, simply being in the right location with Cortex/Barnes Jewish/Wash U, Ikea and SLU as your neighbor.   Another way to put it, Foundry is not dependent say Alamo House succeeding but will most likely have to periodically find new tenants and reimagine some of the space over time.   

^^ i've only been to an Alamo once but i also don't get the hype. not a significantly different experience from Ronnies, IMO, and i preferred Moolah over both. still never been to MX, sadly.

Infants and unaccompanied minors aren’t allowed inside. Terrific idea imo