Does anyone else find this as comically ironic as I do?
The times are certainly a changing.
"Don't shoot. Let 'em burn."
(Kidding)
The times are certainly a changing.
"Don't shoot. Let 'em burn."
(Kidding)
Well yes you're right and you echo Jones' point. My point is that if the plans had been less dramatic they would have done better in the vote or would never have gotten that far if the planners hadn't been in love with themselves or their plan.Framer wrote:I think you guys are over-analyzing this.
In a nutshell: For most of the past 50 years, the County was thriving, while the City was in decline. The Suburban Majority simply didn't want to risk their comfortable, secure, trouble-free way of life. And the City was powerless to do anything about it.
But times, they are a-changing.
For instance if the plan in 1926 was simply reentry and they threw some goodies at county voters it would have been more likely to pass.
As for today even though we see trends shifting I'm not sure enough voters in the county are feeling it yet, so our hopes may be dashed by the same attitudes that sunk past efforts. That's why we need to do a lot of educating, listening, and polling. It would be great if we could add a carrot for the county voters like getting rid of the earnings tax. This might be possible (Article VI Section 30(b)):
Futzing with the charters, laws, and ordinances could be very tempting for the Board of Freeholders, which is why I caution that the petition language should be very constraining.. . . at such time as shall be prescribed therein, the same shall become the organic law of the territory therein defined, and shall take the place of and supersede all laws, charter provisions and ordinances inconsistent therewith relating to said territory.
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I would not be surprised if there is significant opposition to anything more amnitious to city reentry into the county. City voters a few years ago defeated a big push to change the city charter to bring better governance (at least in the backers eyes) with recommendations from the National League of Cities and anything that disrupts an established political system will meet organized resistance from its beneficiaries.
quincunx, has your group looked at any lessons that may be learned from the failed City reform effort?
quincunx, has your group looked at any lessons that may be learned from the failed City reform effort?
No, thanks for bringing that up. It certainly should be examined. I would at this point push for the petition language for the Board of Freeholders to include a restraint that charter changes must be the minimum necessary for reentry. If there were significant charter or other reforms then the effort loses focus and people find more things not to like. The petition language, which is formed out of the community discussion, should be our promise to the community that the Board of Freeholders doesn't turn into a monster.
Are there still "pool" and "point of sale" cities in the County? Which should St Louis City be upon reentry? Which option is less politically risky?
Not that more evidence is needed on the importance of reducing regional fragmentation, but the P-D's latest entry in it's "Compete" series is basically a plea for consolidation and cooperation.
We're fragmented in all sorts of ways: Two states. Sixteen counties. A constellation of 274 towns ranging from the city of St. Louis, population 356,000, to the village of Champ, a handful of folks in six houses on a cul-de-sac. Add in school districts and fire districts and sewer districts and all the tiny townships in Illinois, and we have more than 1,000 units of local government — more than any region in the country except Chicago.
The full costs of our Balkanization are impossible to quantify, but they add up. A few examples:
• The $1.7 billion in tax-increment financing that local governments have shelled out in the last decade — much of it to shuffle retailers around the region, adding little net wealth.
• The tax breaks the city of St. Louis has given four big law firms and coal giant Peabody Energy in the last three years to keep them from hopping the city line into Clayton.
• The $62 million that Clayton and the state of Missouri doled out to Centene Corp. to build a new headquarters there, which kept Centene in town but also lured another big law firm, Armstrong Teasdale, to make that city-to-county move.
• The four different port plans being crafted by four counties along the Mississippi River, all hoping to grab more barge traffic when the Panama Canal expands in 2014.
^A pretty good article overall. But I would like to see a "part 2", with some deeper exploration of various city/county merger and reentry scenarios.
3 Merger Articles in Post-Dispatch
Consolidation May Work
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ab961.html
Skeptical Nicklaus
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... 78a67.html
Historic Unification Efforts
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ee18d.html
Consolidation May Work
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ab961.html
Skeptical Nicklaus
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... 78a67.html
Historic Unification Efforts
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ee18d.html
Here's another
Finding the right combination
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... a3f1f.html
The PD is really throwing down the gauntlet. They seem to want a plan, but I think it's impractical and unwise to write a detailed one in the short-term. A statement of principals or what-have-you would be the place to start. Listening tours, town halls, community outreach and polling should come first.
Finding the right combination
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... a3f1f.html
The PD is really throwing down the gauntlet. They seem to want a plan, but I think it's impractical and unwise to write a detailed one in the short-term. A statement of principals or what-have-you would be the place to start. Listening tours, town halls, community outreach and polling should come first.
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Bringing StL in as the 92nd municipality will still necessitate a popular vote in both the City and County. Making sure there are enough votes is essential in planning for this.
The County perception right now is that any merger, including 92nd muni, would only pass the burden to the County for City crime & debts, as well as making City politicians able to influence County government. I've just been in a long talk this afternoon on this subject, and these are the arguments made back at me. If I could assuage their fears and show them tangible net benefits, they'd be more inclined to take these conversations seriously. All the people I talked to vote, so their concerns will definitely count.
With this in mind:
What actual benefits will County residents have with StL as the 92nd muni?
I do recognize the "regional strength" argument as well as changes in perception. What I'm interested in is building a list of real benefits a merger could bring to the day-to-day lives of County residents in having the City be part of the County.
Would a merger save money? Where? How much?
Would a merger benefit County police, fire, ambulatory, or other public services?
How much would a merger (92nd muni idea) cost the County? Or, would it be a net-saver of revenues?
What about having to pay to rebuild City schools?
How much influence would City politicians have over County affairs, including being allocated County monies?
Are there any new revenue streams post-merger for County coffers, say in property tax assessment?
Are there any research reports done on this? Any hard numbers that can be quoted? If merger (92nd muni) is to happen, all these questions will need to be figured out ahead of time.
The County perception right now is that any merger, including 92nd muni, would only pass the burden to the County for City crime & debts, as well as making City politicians able to influence County government. I've just been in a long talk this afternoon on this subject, and these are the arguments made back at me. If I could assuage their fears and show them tangible net benefits, they'd be more inclined to take these conversations seriously. All the people I talked to vote, so their concerns will definitely count.
With this in mind:
What actual benefits will County residents have with StL as the 92nd muni?
I do recognize the "regional strength" argument as well as changes in perception. What I'm interested in is building a list of real benefits a merger could bring to the day-to-day lives of County residents in having the City be part of the County.
Would a merger save money? Where? How much?
Would a merger benefit County police, fire, ambulatory, or other public services?
How much would a merger (92nd muni idea) cost the County? Or, would it be a net-saver of revenues?
What about having to pay to rebuild City schools?
How much influence would City politicians have over County affairs, including being allocated County monies?
Are there any new revenue streams post-merger for County coffers, say in property tax assessment?
Are there any research reports done on this? Any hard numbers that can be quoted? If merger (92nd muni) is to happen, all these questions will need to be figured out ahead of time.
Thanks for posting this. Anticipating questions and having a decent answer is important so we don't have to say "we'll look into that" often during community discussions.
School districts won't change so Countians won't have to pay to rebuild City schools.
In all likelihood County property taxes will go down per capita since the County gets to levy taxes on the City's property too. At least that's what David Stokes at the Show-Me Institute thinks:
Saint Louis County Would Benefit From City's Return
I suppose there will be some short-term costs in consolidating the City's county-type services. There's a study coming soon that was mentioned in one of the recent PD articles. Hopefully that'll shed more light on the cost/savings questions.
City residents will have representation on the County Council. Two obvious options are either 7 districts of ~192K or expand to 9 which would keep it about the same ~150k. City residents can run for and vote in any of the other elected county-wide offices.
I think reentry makes it more likely that City voters will repeal the earnings tax. A sweetener on the reentry vote could be the repeal or a cut of the earnings tax. However we're reluctant to add anything as it just gives people more things not to like. A poll commissioned after some community education efforts would indicate whether some sweeteners will be necessary.
The more nebulous is the argument that reentry fosters a more coordinated effort to attract jobs and residents. Even if one of the Countians doesn't get a new job perhaps someone will buy a house on their block and boost their property values, patronize their business etc.
The crisis argument is that the County is losing population and wealth, run out of space for growth and the problems that faced the City are becoming prevalent in the County. If they don't want to lose 100k/decade like the City did we need to come together to tackle these problems.
School districts won't change so Countians won't have to pay to rebuild City schools.
In all likelihood County property taxes will go down per capita since the County gets to levy taxes on the City's property too. At least that's what David Stokes at the Show-Me Institute thinks:
Saint Louis County Would Benefit From City's Return
I suppose there will be some short-term costs in consolidating the City's county-type services. There's a study coming soon that was mentioned in one of the recent PD articles. Hopefully that'll shed more light on the cost/savings questions.
City residents will have representation on the County Council. Two obvious options are either 7 districts of ~192K or expand to 9 which would keep it about the same ~150k. City residents can run for and vote in any of the other elected county-wide offices.
I think reentry makes it more likely that City voters will repeal the earnings tax. A sweetener on the reentry vote could be the repeal or a cut of the earnings tax. However we're reluctant to add anything as it just gives people more things not to like. A poll commissioned after some community education efforts would indicate whether some sweeteners will be necessary.
The more nebulous is the argument that reentry fosters a more coordinated effort to attract jobs and residents. Even if one of the Countians doesn't get a new job perhaps someone will buy a house on their block and boost their property values, patronize their business etc.
The crisis argument is that the County is losing population and wealth, run out of space for growth and the problems that faced the City are becoming prevalent in the County. If they don't want to lose 100k/decade like the City did we need to come together to tackle these problems.
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Let's hear what our leaders have to say... From Today's BJ
Francis Slay
How would a City-County merger affect the region’s economy?
A city-county merger remains unlikely for reasons that would extend beyond the boundary of this answer box. However, the city re-entering St. Louis County as a municipality (akin to a Clayton or Webster) is more likely – and would be a great thing for the region’s economy. It would further unite the region in purpose and presentation, and jump St. Louis County onto the list of fastest-growing counties in the country. It would remove an entire layer of government. It would make it easier for citizens of both the city and the county to cooperate (and save money) on public safety, public health, human services and economic development.
Charles Dooley
How would a city-county merger affect the region’s economy?
There are no current plans for a city-county merger, so there is no way of knowing how the region would be affected by such a union. In the short term, there are ways for the city of St. Louis and St. Louis County to consider sharing services that would culminate in increased efficiencies for the entire populace. The concept of shared services among political jurisdictions is an area that will be studied in the years to come. If it proves to be cost-effective, then there will be a positive effect on the region’s economy if the citizens choose to implement such an arrangement.
Francis Slay
How would a City-County merger affect the region’s economy?
A city-county merger remains unlikely for reasons that would extend beyond the boundary of this answer box. However, the city re-entering St. Louis County as a municipality (akin to a Clayton or Webster) is more likely – and would be a great thing for the region’s economy. It would further unite the region in purpose and presentation, and jump St. Louis County onto the list of fastest-growing counties in the country. It would remove an entire layer of government. It would make it easier for citizens of both the city and the county to cooperate (and save money) on public safety, public health, human services and economic development.
Charles Dooley
How would a city-county merger affect the region’s economy?
There are no current plans for a city-county merger, so there is no way of knowing how the region would be affected by such a union. In the short term, there are ways for the city of St. Louis and St. Louis County to consider sharing services that would culminate in increased efficiencies for the entire populace. The concept of shared services among political jurisdictions is an area that will be studied in the years to come. If it proves to be cost-effective, then there will be a positive effect on the region’s economy if the citizens choose to implement such an arrangement.
Here is a paper from Terry Jones on City Reentry. Much to my dismay he says the Board of Electors can't be restrained by the petition language. So I worry it might turn into a monster and poison the effort. A state-wide constitutional amendment vote may be the way to go. We should carefully consider the strengths and weaknesses of each path.
http://pprc.umsl.edu/data/MetropolitanM ... eentry.pdf
http://pprc.umsl.edu/data/MetropolitanM ... eentry.pdf
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^ quincunx: If you're looking to build a ballot issue, then I hope you & your people are preparing for the costs of a full election. I'm sure you'll find people on both sides of the aisle to work on this, but do seek out people that've handled elections before. What politicians you have on your side, tap them for resources.
And start fundraising ASAP. If your group isn't registered as some kind of non-profit, I'd start there. Good luck.
And start fundraising ASAP. If your group isn't registered as some kind of non-profit, I'd start there. Good luck.
I don't think he did well. And the callers had their torches and pitch forks out. There's a lot of work to do on messaging.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/02/18/ ... uary-18th/KMOX wrote:George Herbert “Bert” Walker, former U.S. Ambassador to Hungary and former CEO at Stifel Nicolas, talks about St. Louis City becoming a municipality in St. Louis County.
Can't believe we missed this. Hurray! Hope it happens. The comments were quite refreshing. Especially after the phone calls Bert got on Fri. Some people get it, thank goodness.
St. George official backs end to city
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 3a2cd.html
St. George official backs end to city
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 3a2cd.html
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Can St. Louis join St. Clair County instead? After hearing the callers I think I'd prefer that.quincunx wrote:I don't think he did well. And the callers had their torches and pitch forks out. There's a lot of work to do on messaging.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/02/18/ ... uary-18th/KMOX wrote:George Herbert “Bert” Walker, former U.S. Ambassador to Hungary and former CEO at Stifel Nicolas, talks about St. Louis City becoming a municipality in St. Louis County.
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After hearing the callers, I started wondering if St. Louis City should consider a different tact. How would the city go about de-annexing the highest crime portions of the city. Those areas would become like the unincorporated areas of St. Louis County, but in the City-county, and would get police and other support from a new "county" portion of the St. Louis City County.arch_genesis wrote:
Can St. Louis join St. Clair County instead? After hearing the callers I think I'd prefer that.
In effect, they would get all the services they have now, but their crime statistics would not be included in city statistics. They would not vote for Mayor, but would vote for things like St. Louis city-county questions, just as citizens of unincorporated St. Louis County do not vote for any city Mayor, but do vote for County-wide questions.
Is this possible?
That may be the most undemocratic (not to mention immoral) solution I have ever heard.gary kreie wrote:After hearing the callers, I started wondering if St. Louis City should consider a different tact. How would the city go about de-annexing the highest crime portions of the city. Those areas would become like the unincorporated areas of St. Louis County, but in the City-county, and would get police and other support from a new "county" portion of the St. Louis City County.arch_genesis wrote:
Can St. Louis join St. Clair County instead? After hearing the callers I think I'd prefer that.
In effect, they would get all the services they have now, but their crime statistics would not be included in city statistics. They would not vote for Mayor, but would vote for things like St. Louis city-county questions, just as citizens of unincorporated St. Louis County do not vote for any city Mayor, but do vote for County-wide questions.
Is this possible?
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I asked the question, but I assume it is only legal if the residents of both the city AND the residents of the area to be de-annexed both vote for it. Nothing undemocratic about that (not to mention immoral). If the high crime area residents vote for de-annexation to improve their situation, that is their right. They would no longer be required to pay the city earnings tax. They would not be required to pay city sales or city property taxes. Life could hardly be worse for these areas than it is now. I believe it is worth considering.goat314 wrote:That may be the most undemocratic (not to mention immoral) solution I have ever heard.gary kreie wrote:After hearing the callers, I started wondering if St. Louis City should consider a different tact. How would the city go about de-annexing the highest crime portions of the city. Those areas would become like the unincorporated areas of St. Louis County, but in the City-county, and would get police and other support from a new "county" portion of the St. Louis City County.arch_genesis wrote:
Can St. Louis join St. Clair County instead? After hearing the callers I think I'd prefer that.
In effect, they would get all the services they have now, but their crime statistics would not be included in city statistics. They would not vote for Mayor, but would vote for things like St. Louis city-county questions, just as citizens of unincorporated St. Louis County do not vote for any city Mayor, but do vote for County-wide questions.
Is this possible?
I've thought about something along the same lines - the more stabilized neighborhoods (that actually have a tax base) seceding from the city.gary kreie wrote:After hearing the callers, I started wondering if St. Louis City should consider a different tact. How would the city go about de-annexing the highest crime portions of the city. Those areas would become like the unincorporated areas of St. Louis County, but in the City-county, and would get police and other support from a new "county" portion of the St. Louis City County.arch_genesis wrote:
Can St. Louis join St. Clair County instead? After hearing the callers I think I'd prefer that.
Further fragmentation isn't the first choice, but the merger isn't going to happen anytime soon and something has to change if the city is going to take real steps forward.
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Wow, this conversation just took a turn towards batshit land.
On a practical level, what you're talking about is south city and the central corridor cutting loose the north side. Essentially this would create a second East St. Louis north of Delmar, for, as bad as parts of the north side might be, they gain a lot from the tax base of the broader city. How the hell would this "benefit" the residents of the de-annexed portion? They wouldn't have to pay the earnings tax? Big whoop. I'd suspect half of them work in the city anyway.
And there's the racial implications. You'd have the relatively stable, majority-white two-thirds of the city "de-annexing" the mostly black, poorer, one-third. The optics on this would be absolutely horrible. All the crime studies in the world would pale in comparison to how this would make St. Louis look to the rest of the country.
And for what? So St. Louis Hills wouldn't have to balance its crime stats with Walnut Park?
I agree re-entry is a tough sell to Joe Q. Fenton. But there's a decent case to be made that it will benefit both the city and the county. Having seen him try, I'm not convinced Bert Walker is the best point man to make that case, but, whatever. If it goes forward, bigger guns than he will get involved.
On a practical level, what you're talking about is south city and the central corridor cutting loose the north side. Essentially this would create a second East St. Louis north of Delmar, for, as bad as parts of the north side might be, they gain a lot from the tax base of the broader city. How the hell would this "benefit" the residents of the de-annexed portion? They wouldn't have to pay the earnings tax? Big whoop. I'd suspect half of them work in the city anyway.
And there's the racial implications. You'd have the relatively stable, majority-white two-thirds of the city "de-annexing" the mostly black, poorer, one-third. The optics on this would be absolutely horrible. All the crime studies in the world would pale in comparison to how this would make St. Louis look to the rest of the country.
And for what? So St. Louis Hills wouldn't have to balance its crime stats with Walnut Park?
I agree re-entry is a tough sell to Joe Q. Fenton. But there's a decent case to be made that it will benefit both the city and the county. Having seen him try, I'm not convinced Bert Walker is the best point man to make that case, but, whatever. If it goes forward, bigger guns than he will get involved.
Thanks. I was ready to keel over.stlwriterman wrote:Wow, this conversation just took a turn towards batshit land.
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Gary's Idea: On a legal level, that is impossible, as the withdrawal of a city from a county is different from a partial separation of a city in a non-county entity. There's no background layer of government to fall back on. Unless the part that separates from the remainder of the city incorporates itself, with its own government charter and elected leadership, you can't even envision secession.
Meanwhile on a practical level, that argument carries a little more water than just building a wall around the poor. Batshit indeed, but it is outside-the-box thinking that promotes further though; I hope that's the intent.
Focus: The county opposition Walker faced the other day on Charlie Brennan demonstrates the need for any "merger"/92nd Muni talk to have a professionally managed campaign if it is ever to succeed. To win over the County voters, the City will have to sell itself as the place the County would rather be and tangible, symbiotic benefits. Forget winning the type of arguments that the City won't win, such as crime and poverty; keep the conversation on deeper points, such as human capital potential & industry, then show how the day-to-day lives of the County would improve from increased services at a lower cost. Show passive gains in quality of life to the electorate, with dollars, and this has a chance.
Meanwhile on a practical level, that argument carries a little more water than just building a wall around the poor. Batshit indeed, but it is outside-the-box thinking that promotes further though; I hope that's the intent.
Focus: The county opposition Walker faced the other day on Charlie Brennan demonstrates the need for any "merger"/92nd Muni talk to have a professionally managed campaign if it is ever to succeed. To win over the County voters, the City will have to sell itself as the place the County would rather be and tangible, symbiotic benefits. Forget winning the type of arguments that the City won't win, such as crime and poverty; keep the conversation on deeper points, such as human capital potential & industry, then show how the day-to-day lives of the County would improve from increased services at a lower cost. Show passive gains in quality of life to the electorate, with dollars, and this has a chance.
Under Article VI section 30(a) option 5 (The Fifth Way) we can do anything, so yes it's possible, but ridiculous.
Apparently Charlie asked Bert to come on and he accepted. I think it's way premature to get on the mass media. We have much work to do on strategy, tactics, messaging, studies, focus groups, etc before going on the radio. This is evident as Bert mentioned no way to learn more, get involved, donate money, etc. But no one asked me.
Apparently Charlie asked Bert to come on and he accepted. I think it's way premature to get on the mass media. We have much work to do on strategy, tactics, messaging, studies, focus groups, etc before going on the radio. This is evident as Bert mentioned no way to learn more, get involved, donate money, etc. But no one asked me.