I think goat knew what you wrote and was just driving the point home even more. You two are on the same page. I wish I was on a different page, but I see the image too. *sigh*
If you could widen that angle a little and get the parking lot/interstate wasteland to the south of the stadium, we could lower that to a fourth- or fifth-rate downtown.arch city wrote:Perhaps it doesn't look this bad on ground level, but this is terrible. Absolutely hideous. City leaders are asleep at the wheel for letting this go on for a decade. Looks like a second or third rate downtown.
_MG_0245 by CityArchRiver 2015, on Flickr
- 8,155
I've seen cathouses in the Nevada desert with more action than our lonesome downtown.
- 10K
I will say that it looks decent at street level, but yeah, you're totally right.arch city wrote:Perhaps it doesn't look this bad on ground level, but this is terrible. Absolutely hideous. City leaders are asleep at the wheel for letting this go on for a decade. Looks like a second or third rate downtown.
What would help downtown south of market street if the old stadium garages would be torn down and the street grid rebuilt.arch city wrote:Perhaps it doesn't look this bad on ground level, but this is terrible. Absolutely hideous. City leaders are asleep at the wheel for letting this go on for a decade. Looks like a second or third rate downtown.
_MG_0245 by CityArchRiver 2015, on Flickr
The garages are a blight or the area and poor land use
^^Good luck with that. It sucks but there's really no stadium in the USA that doesn't have garages by it. It would be much more tolerable if BPV was built up a little more tho
I really have no issue with the two garages book-ending "Ballpark Village" -- tearing them down would just result in more surface parking lots. What I DO have an issue with is the massive surface parking lot that is "Ballpark Village". The Cardinals and their "development" partner have dropped the ball several times in securing meaningful construction/growth on this massive footprint. We were sold Ballpark Village as a six-block project -- using some verbal jujitsu, they've dubbed the entertainment complex "Ballpark Village" to change the perception of what the project with that name actually is supposed to be.
That's the problem I also have. THIS is what we were sold and still haven't gotten a decade later.Kevin B wrote:I really have no issue with the two garages book-ending "Ballpark Village" -- tearing them down would just result in more surface parking lots. What I DO have an issue with is the massive surface parking lot that is "Ballpark Village". The Cardinals and their "development" partner have dropped the ball several times in securing meaningful construction/growth on this massive footprint. We were sold Ballpark Village as a six-block project -- using some verbal jujitsu, they've dubbed the entertainment complex "Ballpark Village" to change the perception of what the project with that name actually is supposed to be.
This is what we got.
- 8,155
What's weird is that we have many tens of thousands of locals visit and enjoy our downtown but getting people to live or work there has been so difficult. We need a better corporate community, imo.
Let me be clear.
In my opinion, downtown St. Louis, aesthetically, looks much better now than it did five, ten or fifteen years ago. It's well lit, clean, "greener" and most older and empty buildings have been brought back to life. There have been some re-claddings and un-claddings that have added to the increased beauty of downtown. And with the CityArchRiver project moving along, downtown will become even more aesthetically appealing - though more work would need to happen.
Also, while Washington Avenue has lost some of its luster - it's still a viable corridor with new businesses and venues on the way.
With that said, when was the last time Slay's office sought major firms - from ANYWHERE in the WORLD - for expansion downtown? Has he even asked regional firms to toss some bones and scraps toward downtown? Overall, downtown needs employers. In my opinion, he is doing NOTHING. Is downtown St. Louis even open for business? Most of the time, I can't tell.
Still.........It just doesn't make any sense that "Ballpark Village" has only one damn building that's essentially a really nice food court and a glorified sports bar. It's been a whole decade of promises and apathy.
I wonder if people started protesting regularly outside of Busch Stadium and City Hall with signs like "Cardinals Carpark Village", "Ballparking Village" and "Field of Fumes", etc. would the Cardinals feel the urgency.
In my opinion, downtown St. Louis, aesthetically, looks much better now than it did five, ten or fifteen years ago. It's well lit, clean, "greener" and most older and empty buildings have been brought back to life. There have been some re-claddings and un-claddings that have added to the increased beauty of downtown. And with the CityArchRiver project moving along, downtown will become even more aesthetically appealing - though more work would need to happen.
Also, while Washington Avenue has lost some of its luster - it's still a viable corridor with new businesses and venues on the way.
With that said, when was the last time Slay's office sought major firms - from ANYWHERE in the WORLD - for expansion downtown? Has he even asked regional firms to toss some bones and scraps toward downtown? Overall, downtown needs employers. In my opinion, he is doing NOTHING. Is downtown St. Louis even open for business? Most of the time, I can't tell.
Still.........It just doesn't make any sense that "Ballpark Village" has only one damn building that's essentially a really nice food court and a glorified sports bar. It's been a whole decade of promises and apathy.
I wonder if people started protesting regularly outside of Busch Stadium and City Hall with signs like "Cardinals Carpark Village", "Ballparking Village" and "Field of Fumes", etc. would the Cardinals feel the urgency.
- 8,155
Cincinnati finally will have a hotel on the Banks site across from the Reds ballpark.
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... enant.html
It'll be a 7 story AC Hotel, a new brand from Marriott targeting younger guests. Apparently no tax abatement or incentives will be needed. Marriott is pretty well-represented here so if they like the market perhaps they'll add this product here.... I am interested to see what will be replacing the Crowne Plaza.
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... enant.html
It'll be a 7 story AC Hotel, a new brand from Marriott targeting younger guests. Apparently no tax abatement or incentives will be needed. Marriott is pretty well-represented here so if they like the market perhaps they'll add this product here.... I am interested to see what will be replacing the Crowne Plaza.
My take is that over the past few years downtown somehow has managed to achieve the feat of having fewer vacant buildings and seeming less full at the same time. Arcade/Wright obviously will be a big help and hopefully some of these smaller projects moving along will help with vibrancy as well. But something needs to resuscitate the Valley of Death a.k.a the Railway Exchange/Mercantile Library area and Downtown West.arch city wrote:Let me be clear.
In my opinion, downtown St. Louis, aesthetically, looks much better now than it did five, ten or fifteen years ago. It's well lit, clean, "greener" and most older and empty buildings have been brought back to life. There have been some re-claddings and un-claddings that have added to the increased beauty of downtown. And with the CityArchRiver project moving along, downtown will become even more aesthetically appealing - though more work would need to happen.
Also, while Washington Avenue has lost some of its luster - it's still a viable corridor with new businesses and venues on the way....
(I also think we need a ton of work on streetscaping and lighting, btw.)
- 8
Good god. So pitiful. The whole story of Ballpark Village is just a joke. That picture is just the icing on the cake. Honestly, it is brought up time and again, but where is the insentivizing by our city's government to get companies to move downtown? I'm not going to say I'm the most educated on what they have done, but from the outside it appears like nothing. And if they are doing something, why not make a big deal of it to, you know, push the idea that you're trying to insentivize companies headquartering themselves downtown?!? Christ.
^ Because everyone else is offering the same incentives. For all the talk about city leadership their becomes the hard reality of a corporate HQ like Hardees moving to Nashville not because St Louis or Nashville offers more incentives but because the CEO buys a 50 acre horse farm or whatever he bought is outside of Nashville.
The other hard reality for BPV, does the city want to be on the hook for the bond payments? You can argue it paid off for KC and you can also argue the KC has essentially given Cordish a risk free investment over everyone else and at the expense of services to its citizens. I don't know the right answer but in St. Louis case their was a huge amount of building stock sitting empty and a lot of it has quietly been filling up since BPV was first proposed,
IMO, St. Louis was better off to hold off on backing the bonds and believe it is a building or two away, such as the Railway Exchange and Chemical, from the point of offering BPV a bond/finance package. Instead, I think the city should see how Rams stadium and any convention center upgrades (specifically ballroom expansion and the parking garage RFP) plays out. That gives Drury the rest of the year to either do something with Laclede's property or not as well as Answers.com. Why, I think Drury will make a much bigger effort to develop Laclede's once they are committing to a build out as well as the fact that Answers.com brings job and an expanding company downtown. I would give Drury and Answers.com a shot at any new or added incentives this year first. You never know, Answers.com might be talking to the City and BPV.
The other hard reality for BPV, does the city want to be on the hook for the bond payments? You can argue it paid off for KC and you can also argue the KC has essentially given Cordish a risk free investment over everyone else and at the expense of services to its citizens. I don't know the right answer but in St. Louis case their was a huge amount of building stock sitting empty and a lot of it has quietly been filling up since BPV was first proposed,
IMO, St. Louis was better off to hold off on backing the bonds and believe it is a building or two away, such as the Railway Exchange and Chemical, from the point of offering BPV a bond/finance package. Instead, I think the city should see how Rams stadium and any convention center upgrades (specifically ballroom expansion and the parking garage RFP) plays out. That gives Drury the rest of the year to either do something with Laclede's property or not as well as Answers.com. Why, I think Drury will make a much bigger effort to develop Laclede's once they are committing to a build out as well as the fact that Answers.com brings job and an expanding company downtown. I would give Drury and Answers.com a shot at any new or added incentives this year first. You never know, Answers.com might be talking to the City and BPV.
- 8
^ Thank you for your on-point answer. In following up your statement about the quietly-filling building stock, are there any online resources to see what buildings are/will be occupied or what is still vacant?
Edit: I mean in a single place, as opposed to doing research on every building.
Edit: I mean in a single place, as opposed to doing research on every building.
^Not sure. But the thread RW's been keeping up "2015 City Projects" is probably a good starting point: http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=45
http://nextcity.org/features/view/kansa ... -companies
On the link that I came across this article, there were comments from some people in Memphis discussing how lucky they were that Cordish had not come knocking. They site the tragedy of BPV as lessons to be learned for more healthy development.
I still hold out hope that BPV will be much more than it is now, even if it takes far too long. That said, it is frustrating to see urban minded individuals from around the country call it out objectively.
On the link that I came across this article, there were comments from some people in Memphis discussing how lucky they were that Cordish had not come knocking. They site the tragedy of BPV as lessons to be learned for more healthy development.
I still hold out hope that BPV will be much more than it is now, even if it takes far too long. That said, it is frustrating to see urban minded individuals from around the country call it out objectively.
- 8,155
Interesting development regarding Detroit's Hockey Village.... the Pistons owner is now inquiring about a move to the arena from Auburn Hills. (Gilbert has been hassling him about playing b-ball in a field like a bunch of Hoosiers.)
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/i ... cart_river
I think that would boost speed and scale of the mixed-use portion. Meanwhile, in Milwaukee, plans for a new stadium for the Bucks with mixed-use development is having a hard time getting over the hurdle of public funding issues.... apparently NBA has said a new stadium needs to be in place by '17. The Bucks owner said he'd commit to $400 million in mixed-use redevelopment.
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/ne ... ident.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/bl ... -room.html
http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/i ... cart_river
I think that would boost speed and scale of the mixed-use portion. Meanwhile, in Milwaukee, plans for a new stadium for the Bucks with mixed-use development is having a hard time getting over the hurdle of public funding issues.... apparently NBA has said a new stadium needs to be in place by '17. The Bucks owner said he'd commit to $400 million in mixed-use redevelopment.
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/ne ... ident.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/bl ... -room.html
The Cardinals would have been better off partnering with Clayco.blzhrpmd2 wrote:http://nextcity.org/features/view/kansa ... -companies
On the link that I came across this article, there were comments from some people in Memphis discussing how lucky they were that Cordish had not come knocking. They site the tragedy of BPV as lessons to be learned for more healthy development.
I still hold out hope that BPV will be much more than it is now, even if it takes far too long. That said, it is frustrating to see urban minded individuals from around the country call it out objectively.
Clayco's Bob Clark is on record chiding how long it has taken BPV to be developed.
It's not just Cordish who should be blamed the BPV turtle crawl, but also city leadership - particularly the mayor.
And.......... they can't blame it on the recession anymore.
Arch City, so what exactly can Mayor do? All the subsidies and incentives are in place outside of outright backing the bonds with general revenues. On top of that, most incentives especially the state are the same where you are located on I64 corridor. The development agreement between Dewitt and Cordish is legally binding. No going back on that one without some hefty buyout I can only assume. You can wine and dine corporate execs all you want but end of the day it is still the CEO who decides not the mayor telling a corporation where they have to be or not.
I just keep hearing the same argument that the mayor needs to do more without saying what exactly what that is.
I just keep hearing the same argument that the mayor needs to do more without saying what exactly what that is.
- 1,864
Public conversations and pressure would help. Updating us where talks stand and what ideas are being pitched... Right now we only hear what gets leaked and have no idea what Cordish and the Cardinals are thinking of and what the city knows timeline wise.