1,054
Expert MemberExpert Member
1,054

PostJul 18, 2007#26

Individual Rehab Momentum

The North of Delmar approach to revitalization and reconstruction will likely follow a similar trajectory as Old North St. Louis with rehab projects that slowly multiply while growing into a cohesive community that creates a safe and neighborly environment to attract more rehabbers and new construction. In time, a threshold is reached that signals to developers that the neighborhood is safe and stable and capable of new housing.



Small Developer Initiative

Small developers may be similar to Mary "One" Johnson who will build housing along one side of a block and only one side of the street at-a-time. or He or she may built a linear street face or housing on half a block on both side of a steet but not many street or 1/2 blocks. Several northside new construction developments fall into this category such as the Grand Prairie homes which are built for middle class folks but with larger than urban scaled yards (probably as a result of zoning or to mimick suburban formats). We have yet to see how this will meet a threshold and attract more development. But so far, this movement has gained slow momentum throughout the northside in many small developments.



Developer Initiative and Individual Rehab

Another approach is the Forest Park Southeast scenario where developers like Amy and Amrit Gill buy up a large stock of buildings and rehab them over time which signals to other folks a guaranteed private investment into the neighborhood and welcomes individual rehabbers who would not have considered the neighborhood before.



Masterly Planned Developer Initiative

In this approach, a developer with the consultancy of a planning firm masterly designs a large scale development of many contiguous acres. New Urbanism and Mixed-Use developments are the most progressive in this scenario but the traditional large subdivision is the basis. In this scenario, the developer is the sole risk taker to assure the legitimacy of the neighborhood he or she is contructing and the threshold of a safe environment that encourages further development is not present in the masterly planned subdivision outside of the improvements by new individual property owners. However, this development if successful does give way to new ones along it edges.



Government Piecemeal

I regard this approach as the familiar HOPE or mixed-income development that builds such housing by the block or several blocks. It is akin to large groupings of indiviual projects but not as large as a whole neighborhood in scale. Over time the same developer may build one after another until they create a neighborhood but each development has distinctive enough architecture and layout to signal that they are each separate. It is yet uncertain how "successful" (defined as: providing a safe and legitimate environment to attract additional development by other developers or individuals) this model is.



I believe this is where many of us may begin to disagree over the ability of government sponsored developments to coalesce into a legitimate whole and safe neighborhood. Granted it must be taken into consideration that unlike the past government public housing, mixed income housing does not concentrate impovershed families and individuals anywhere near the same rate as past ones did. Thus, middle class and aspiring middle class persons may feel inclined to live in these mixed-income developments such as King Louis Square between LaSalle and Lafayette Square

PostJul 18, 2007#27

Matt Drops the H wrote:
If you're so much a fan of the best solution--the free market--then you need to realize that affordable housing units are in demand. This city absorbs a high percentage of the impoverished population of the St. Louis MSA. The City of St. Louis is attractive to low and middle income people because they're the most likely part of the population to own no automobile and thus be transit dependent. They have fewer housing options and must often rent or depend upon cheaper housing.


Bastiat wrote:
Again, you seem to miss the point. When speaking of "Affordable housing", it's proponents and opponents are always speaking of housing that is in some way directly subsidized by the government. Government intervention is the opposite of free market.



There are plenty of "affordable houses" in the city. When I see run down older houses, I do not see these as an impediment to further development of neighborhoods such as the CWE. I think of them as future developments.


Matt Drops the H wrote:
Poor people won't go away if we quit building affordable housing--and nor should we want them to. To fail to build affordable housing units, which are in demand, is to resist the pull of the market for housing in the city of St. Louis.


After seeing a heated discussion on the Delmar and Kingshighway thread I saw a need for a deeper dialogue over the interface between the market and government subsidized housing and more specifically targeted at North St. Louis which has been the testing grounds for decades of government policy to "fix" our major cities.



Regarding the supply of affordable housing:

The demand for affordable housing is always present and one could go as far to say that the demand exits for every income group (many middle class people want to live in St. Charles but due to higher housing costs than a decade or two ago they find their affordable housing in Wentzville and others in Troy or Warren). As we continue to build newer housing every year, more past housing is available to subsequent lesser income groups for "moving up" if-you-will. Older modern housing that was built for the middle class and even some for the higher levels of the middle class (large ranch housing (2,000-3,000 square feet) or two-level 1960s-1980s in Florissant, Ferguson, and Spanish Lake areas can be purchased at 1/4 to 1/2 the price levels as in Chesterfield despite being the same house. The difference between the same house in Chesterfield as the one in north county is location or proximity to job centers and the wealthy class. The great shake-out of the market would be exactly that as long as there is new construction and slow changing economic class proportions there will be a continuous stream of "affordable" housing to every price level. Now the matter is what price level can you afford or are willing and able to pay?



Older suburban homes are the new "affordable housing" for low-income groups. In theory the market allows these groups to obtain the modern housing previously not obtainable. On this point is another degree of contention about the affect of government subsidies in the market economy. In theory and ceteris peribus (spelling?): If government subsidies are given to provide new low-income housing in an area that has a different market price level than a portion of the market or demand for the housing is essentially lost and disappears into probably abandonment. In this scenario, government housing is not needed because it interferes with the market and prevents low-income people from purchasing higher quality housing being passed down to them and they are in some way jailed to live in depressed neighborhoods in the City with poor schools and other factors that provide an environment lacking in opportunities to aspire into the middle class or out of poverty.



However, questions are raised:

Is the market really free or is government apart of the market? (remember that capitalism needs government or political development to ensure economic development or the sustainability of a market economy).



And



Is it morally right to build impovershed housing in the inner city to essentially oppress or keep down minorities and the impovershed from gaining a higher quality of life or greater amount of opportunities to help them aspire out of poverty towards the middle class. School desgregation gives an example of this approach whereby impovershed inner city minorities are given the opportunity for a greater education by suburban schools. In Pattonville we bussed in "deseg" students and many have found their way towards four-year college if not community college or at least a credible high school diploma that allows them a higher level of job or better opportunities than if they had remained in the inner city schools (except the magnets) with less opportunities available. At some point one wonders if overly liberal policy affects the poor by trapping them into a cycle of few opportunities and is reverse classism.



These are the hard questions as a Planning student I find myself faced with when taking classes in a variety of fields such as sociology, economics, political science, geography, and planning.



May this thread better serve the voices on "affordable housing" on the northside than the thread labeled Delmar and Kingshighway which is geared towards a different dialogue on the built environment.

6,660
AdministratorAdministrator
6,660

PostJul 18, 2007#28

Thread has been split and merged.

3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostJul 18, 2007#29

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
JCity wrote:"low income housing"
When it is built elsewhere,
Why is it "built" anywhere at all? St. Louis: The first city to opt out of public housing. Has a nice ring to it.


That's my point. Why build it at all. We should just build "housing". If the poor can afford to live there, they will. If they can't, they won't.


That is a ridiculous statement considering most of the jobs are where the poor cannot afford to live. Moreover, the resale value of their home often is not enough to afford a new home where the jobs are located.



I disagree with SMS that we should gentrify the City. The City should build in a compact manner with high density including housing for all income groups, while doing all it can to attract jobs. We should also concentrate on regional mass transit so those without cars have better access to the jobs which will not relocate to the City. The solution is not to isolate the poor into the inner ring suburbs. The same problems which exist here will simply move there. That does not address the root cause of the problem which is the inherent inequalities present in capitalism.

2,327
Life MemberLife Member
2,327

PostJul 18, 2007#30

My gripe: St. Louis is expected to build low-income housing. Chesterfield is not.



Some more cities get off scot free while others can't build two houses in a row without someone demand one be designated low-income.



I wish more cities would 'share the burden' of low-income housing.

623
Senior MemberSenior Member
623

PostJul 18, 2007#31

With government subsidies and housing however, this system gets entirely screwed up. Under the market system, a developer would see the potential that the Washington Apartments have and would try to sell the units for as much as possible. Under the current system, companies like McCormack Barron Salazar can make just as much by making the Apartments into low income housing because they get subsidies from the government. The government has no money of its own, so it takes it from the taxpayers. In effect, we are all paying for people's houses in one of the nicest neighborhoods.


Interesting that you use this example. MBS is using low income housing tax credits to redo the Washington Avenue Apartments. The tax credits work in much the same way that historic tax credits do. The same method to reach different goals. Historic preservation on one hand and quality affordable housing on the other.



Where would the CWE and the other nicest neighborhoods in the city be without tax credits. So, Basitat is right... In effect, we are all paying for people's houses in one of the nicest neighborhoods. We are paying for the orthopedic surgeon to live in a historically rehabbed mansion and the 75-year old great-grandma getting by on her dead husband's social security check to live in a decent one-bedroom unit at the Washington Apartments.



Bottomline - Developers use credits (affordable, historic or otherwise) and subsidies (TIF) for one purpose... to offset costs so that the final product is affordable to the market. Whether the project is the Chase Park Plaza, Park East Tower, or the Washington Apartments, they all need to be affordable to their target market, otherwise they wouldn't be done.



So in a way most of the projects we talk about on this forum are subsidized affordable housing. The question is affordable for whom?

172
Junior MemberJunior Member
172

PostJul 18, 2007#32

shadrach wrote:My gripe: St. Louis is expected to build low-income housing. Chesterfield is not.



Some more cities get off scot free while others can't build two houses in a row without someone demand one be designated low-income.


All because of the way that city is perceived by people. Just because the area of land is incorporated and has been named Chesterfield or Town & Country make it immune to taking on problems that run throughout our metro area.



My gripe as well, for what it's worth.

3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostJul 18, 2007#33

shadrach wrote:My gripe: St. Louis is expected to build low-income housing. Chesterfield is not.



Some more cities get off scot free while others can't build two houses in a row without someone demand one be designated low-income.



I wish more cities would 'share the burden' of low-income housing.


Chesterfield, like many exurban areas, prohibit low income housing through exclusionary zoning.



A way to "share the burden" is to fund regional transit so that those who do not live near jobs, mainly those in the inner city, are able to access jobs even though they cannot live in the suburbs.

PostJul 18, 2007#34


Where would the CWE and the other nicest neighborhoods in the city be without tax credits. So, Basitat is right... In effect, we are all paying for people's houses in one of the nicest neighborhoods. We are paying for the


I have no problem paying for the poor whether through housing or social programs, or aiding the rehab of historical buildings. I have a problem funding sprawl and illegal wars overseas. I also don't like issuing subsidy for the billionaire owners of sports teams.

2,327
Life MemberLife Member
2,327

PostJul 18, 2007#35

I have no problem subsidizing housing or other social programs. But if the majority of the city's population is on public assistance, then who pays for it? No wonders the wealthy and corporations leave, they're being bled to death.



In other words, getting more affluent, tax-paying citizens in the city is critical.

4,489
Super ModeratorSuper Moderator
4,489

PostJul 18, 2007#36

This topic was moved from the residential projects section of the North St. Louis City forum. The "project" boards are specifically for new and proposed construction projects.



Also, affordable housing is an issue for the whole city (and region) - not just North St. Louis.

801
Super MemberSuper Member
801

PostJul 19, 2007#37

Doug wrote:
shadrach wrote:My gripe: St. Louis is expected to build low-income housing. Chesterfield is not.



Some more cities get off scot free while others can't build two houses in a row without someone demand one be designated low-income.



I wish more cities would 'share the burden' of low-income housing.


Chesterfield, like many exurban areas, prohibit low income housing through exclusionary zoning.


Gee, I wonder why. A good portion of county dwellers are former city dwellers or the children of former city dwellers. People don't live in the county because they don't like old architecture or buildings that come right up to the sidewalks. They don't like the crime and social problems that have become associated with city living and have zoned their new homes to avoid such problems.



Many people in the county have been moving into neighborhoods like the CWE and Lafayette Square. This drives up land values and rents. People wanting to live in these areas are forced to move into the fringes of the areas and make those areas nicer as well. Landowners start to realize that they can charge higher rents. To collect these rents, they build higher and denser. The concentration of wealth works kind of like gravity. The bigger the area of wealth, the more people that are pulled towards it.



When you build subsidized housing in these areas, you start to short out the potential of the neighborhood and the city. Not many people want to live next housing projects or senior housing. This is an objective statement. No amount of wishing and fingercrossing on this board is going to change this fact.



Right now, Clayton and Ladue are the main centers of "gravity" or wealth. The builders of Maryland Walk and Trianon don't have to fear that a HOPE XXIV project will be built down the street and lower the rates that they can charge.



I would like to shift the center of gravity to the central corridor inside the city. I would like to see Skinker-DeBalivierre, CWE, Cabanne, Midtown, Fountain Park, Soulard, Benton Park and Lafayette Square to be on par with the hot spots in the county in terms of price. This would mean that there would be demand and thus development for housing in the marginal neighborhoods and all of those houses that are currently vacant and falling down would have people living in them. Good lord, it would mean that city would almost be like it was before the wealthy left it decades ago...



Or we can continue to pat ourselves on the back about how we are so progressive that the poor have the right to live in trendy neighborhoods while entire neighborhoods on the northside crumble and the wealthy stay out in the county.

PostJul 19, 2007#38

Doug wrote:

Where would the CWE and the other nicest neighborhoods in the city be without tax credits. So, Basitat is right... In effect, we are all paying for people's houses in one of the nicest neighborhoods. We are paying for the


I have no problem paying for the poor whether through housing or social programs, or aiding the rehab of historical buildings. I have a problem funding sprawl and illegal wars overseas. I also don't like issuing subsidy for the billionaire owners of sports teams.


I have a problem funding any of those things. The thing is that "funding" is really a euphemism for "forcing other people to pay" for things. Forcing people to pay for something against their will is wrong in principle and I do not believe in using evil means no matter how great the ends may be.



There is a difference between funding "affordable housing" and tax credits. The former is taking money from one person and giving it to another. Tax credits are basically tax cuts. I have no objection to letting people keep the money that they have earned.


However, questions are raised:

Is the market really free or is government apart of the market? (remember that capitalism needs government or political development to ensure economic development or the sustainability of a market economy).


That's debatable, but I would not want to open that can of worms lest we have to split the thread again. :wink:

1,585
Totally AddictedTotally Addicted
1,585

PostJul 19, 2007#39

^No one is saying that we should put low income housing in these areas. The initial statement that I objected to was basically affordable housing in the city. I too agree that the central core and Lafayette Square, Soulard, Cabanne...you know neighborhoods that were originally high end should remain/become again high end. We're even seeing neighborhoods that were originally working class(ONSL) start the transition to where many think that it too will someday be high end.



But again, low income housing does not necessarily mean public housing. Low income housing could be a small house without many of the luxuries of life(air conditioning, cable, stainless steel appliances, etc.).





EDIT: Apparently I took too long making my response and my point was addressed. :)

1,517
Totally AddictedTotally Addicted
1,517

PostJul 19, 2007#40

Bastiat wrote:
I have a problem funding any of those things. The thing is that "funding" is really a euphemism for "forcing other people to pay" for things. Forcing people to pay for something against their will is wrong in principle and I do not believe in using evil means no matter how great the ends may be.



There is a difference between funding "affordable housing" and tax credits. The former is taking money from one person and giving it to another. Tax credits are basically tax cuts. I have no objection to letting people keep the money that they have earned.


Only for those who worship money is redistribution of it "evil." I think it's hyperbole of the grandest sort to label economic systems like socialism and democratic socialism as "evil."



Abolishing welfare programs, HOPE VI, and affordable housing would not sort themselves out in the long term, in my opinion. You cannot just pull the rug out from an already submerged class of people and say to them, "now organize yourselves, get jobs, and get out of the most vital parts of our cities."

5,631
Life MemberLife Member
5,631

PostJul 19, 2007#41

^ The answer is somewhere in the middle.

85
New MemberNew Member
85

PostJul 19, 2007#42

Bastiat wrote "When support [for affordable housing] crosses over from being charity given willingly by others to an entitlement that people demand as a right, it creates incentives for bad behavior."



This was the comment that spurred my comparison with Europe. Big cities in Europe are chock full of subsidized housing, yet "bad behavior" by almost any definition (vagrancy, crime, prostitution) is worse in American cities than overseas.



Whatever we may think of the free market in other contexts, it fails miserably in terms of addressing people's housing needs. Part of that failure is on display in Lucas Park.



I don't want Skinker-Debaliviere to become Ladue, and no one else I know who lives here does either. If affordable housing disappears from places like S-D, then the city will be even more segregated than it already is. Then what? Poor people and moderately low income people will be more isolated, and the problems with crime and the schools will ultimately become even more intractable.



This we call an urban vision?



The comment that "mixed-income" is just a euphemism for poor-people's housing is a reflection of deep ignorance or else indifference to the shades of poverty in our city. MacCormack Baron has done fantastic things in this city (and elsewhere). Take a stroll around Westminster Pl and some of their other MIXED-income developments. It's worth it.

2,953
Life MemberLife Member
2,953

PostJul 19, 2007#43

I stopped reading this on the last page. You guys talk too much.

3,311
Life MemberLife Member
3,311

PostJul 20, 2007#44

by almost any definition (vagrancy, crime, prostitution) is worse in American cities than overseas.


really? have you seen the ghetto's outside of Paris? where thugs burn buses and threaten police, and have daily car burnings.. As bad as our "most dangerous" city is, I don't think bus drivers have to sit in locked cages, away from unruly passengers here.



In terms of affordable housing, there should be some sort of time limit one can stay in such an arrangement. (5 years max) what's the incentive to work hard and excel in school when you know there will be a big government handout and free housing when you drop out? Sure, it's not an equal playing field from Ladue/Clayton High to Beaumont/Vashon, but not holding ALL members of society up to the SAME standards reeks of soft bigotry in my opinion.

1,585
Totally AddictedTotally Addicted
1,585

PostJul 20, 2007#45

Putting a time limit on how long someone could stay there would only create more problems. As I've said time and time again, many people there are already working multiple jobs to TRY to get out of there. If you put a time limit on how long one can reside at a certain location, then when their time is up they are going to end up on a park bench in Lucus Park, but with a child or two in toe.



You have got look at reasons why people drop out too. Sure, some people drop out just because they are lazy. Other kids drop out because they have got bigger things to worry about like providing for their families. Some do this legally and some illegally, but many inner-city kids(and kids ingeneral everywhere) have got more important problems(at least it seems at the time) to deal with than trying to get an A on a test about DNA and such. For some kids, high school is just not for them. That sounds ridiculous and such, but I know someone who really struggeled through high school and got mixed up with some crazy crap. Ever since he dropped out and got away from all the pressures and crap that is high school he has picked himself up, got his GED, and moved on. At least in my opinion, to punish people for not meeting society's expectations of graduating high school generalizes past the point of justice.



And besides, I know there are some crazy people out there, but how many people actually wake up and say "Thank God that I'm living in the projects! I'm glad I made the choice to take advantage of the government to live in this small apartment and put everyone's lives in the crossfire."

1,448
Super ModeratorSuper Moderator
1,448

PostJul 20, 2007#46

Shimmy wrote:Putting a time limit on how long someone could stay there would only create more problems. As I've said time and time again, many people there are already working multiple jobs to TRY to get out of there. If you put a time limit on how long one can reside at a certain location, then when their time is up they are going to end up on a park bench in Lucus Park, but with a child or two in toe.



You have got look at reasons why people drop out too. Sure, some people drop out just because they are lazy. Other kids drop out because they have got bigger things to worry about like providing for their families. Some do this legally and some illegally, but many inner-city kids(and kids ingeneral everywhere) have got more important problems(at least it seems at the time) to deal with than trying to get an A on a test about DNA and such. For some kids, high school is just not for them. That sounds ridiculous and such, but I know someone who really struggeled through high school and got mixed up with some crazy crap. Ever since he dropped out and got away from all the pressures and crap that is high school he has picked himself up, got his GED, and moved on. At least in my opinion, to punish people for not meeting society's expectations of graduating high school generalizes past the point of justice.



And besides, I know there are some crazy people out there, but how many people actually wake up and say "Thank God that I'm living in the projects! I'm glad I made the choice to take advantage of the government to live in this small apartment and put everyone's lives in the crossfire."


Adding human element. Does not compute. Messy gray areas of life conflicts with my carefully constructed paper world. Does not compute. Logical people incentivized by free markets. "Illogical" people--well, they do not compute, do not compute. End their program. Delete.

85
New MemberNew Member
85

PostJul 20, 2007#47

trent wrote:I stopped reading this on the last page. You guys talk too much.


Sorry you're bored. In defense of droning on about this, I would say it's a very live, very important question in St. Louis. Barb Geismann has actually said that St. Louis has "too much affordable housing," and a lot of other very powerful (though far more discreet) people seem to agree with her.



And it's simply not true.



It's also not true that upper middle class people don't want to live near mixed-income projects. If the projects are well-built and well-managed, it's not a problem. (Consider the success of the Gaslight Square project right down the street from MBS Westminster Pl.) Polls have shown that middle class folks (black and white) want to live in economically diverse neighborhoods - assuming they are safe and clean and reasonably well-ordered.



And as for Paris riots: Don't kid yourself. It's still a lot safer in Paris than it is in Watts, or the Bronx, or North St. Louis. And it wasn't so long ago that American cities were burning too.

3,785
Life MemberLife Member
3,785

PostJul 20, 2007#48

They don't even have to be "projects." Simply build new less expensive homes at a ratio of 8 to 1. That is what DPZ and other New Urbanists recommend. We don't have too much affordable housing. We need more of everything.



For a look into Paris' projects, go and rent "La Haine."



As to which are more dangerous? Whenever poor people are concentrated and isolated from mainstream society there will be violence. Which is why we need mixed income neighborhoods.

2,430
Life MemberLife Member
2,430

PostJul 20, 2007#49

Doug wrote:They don't even have to be "projects." Simply build new less expensive homes at a ratio of 8 to 1. That is what DPZ and other New Urbanists recommend. We don't have too much affordable housing. We need more of everything.


That ratio is currently the subject of litigation in New Jersey. Under the current COAH rules(Council on Affordable Housing) and the accompanying Mount Laurel requirements, all New Jersey municipalities are to provide affordable housing. Under the 3rd Round "Growth Share" Rules (which is whats being litigated), municiaplities can pass growth share ordiances requring either fees paid by the developer in lew of the building of affordable housing or the building of affordable units at the following ratios:



1 affordable unit for each 8 new market rate units

1 affordable unit for each 25 jobs created by non-residential development



The court questioned the statistical backup for using these ratios. We will find out in a few months whether such a method is legaly valid, but since the COAH program is not going to disappear in New Jersey anytime soon at least the Growth Share method made it simpler for municipalities to determine their affordable housing requirement.



One side question: Since when do people have a "right" to live where ever the choose regardless of price?

Read more posts (-1 remaining)