urbanSTL

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote:

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”. I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

dbInSouthCity wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”. I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

I’m sure self service and drinking establishments are showing similar levels of growth. I’m merely pointing out that Clayton’s restaurant spend is pretty strong compared to DT STL, relative to geographic size. Plus, DT STL’s growth rate is high in large part due to the lackluster growth numbers in the years prior to 2019.


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I grabbed lunch today in Clayton and it defiantly passed the eye test. Lots of people out walking about.

I also think comparing downtown and Clayton is a bit silly. While they both have high rises, and an infuse of workers during the day, they are pretty different. People say Clayton is boring or dead after about 6 like that’s a bad thing. I don’t think it is a bad thing. It’s not an entertainment district and I don’t think has much interest in being one. It’s surrounded by single family homes on almost all sides of a fairly small business district. I’d guess most people want it to be quiet and “boring/dead” at night. Enough restaurants for lunch,  happy hour, and dinner, with a couple later open spots for the people who do want to stay out late whether that be hotel guests or residents.

Downtown can be the all hours of the day place that has entertainment and sports. That’s not Clayton’s thing nor should it really be their thing.

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Just because there are options, doesn’t mean they are good.

Capital is not good.

Tony’s is stuck in the past. It’s the restaurant your grandpa still thinks is the best in town because his mind never left the 70s.

The 801s are solid, but are we really hanging our hat on a chain steak and seafood restaurants?

Herbies is bad.

Napoli is overpriced for what it is and the company is trash.

Louie’s is another forgettable, overpriced chain that has lost its luster.

Oceano bistro is fine.

Fields doesn’t exist anymore and it was gross.

J Mcgraugh’s is fine but also not in really in DT Clayton.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”.  I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

I’m sure self service and drinking establishments are showing similar levels of growth. I’m merely pointing out that Clayton’s restaurant spend is pretty strong compared to DT STL, relative to geographic size. Plus, DT STL’s growth rate is high in large part due to the lackluster growth numbers in the years prior to 2019.


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do you have data for that claim (i do) about lackluster growth or just talking out of your ass?

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

May 24, 2024

jshank83 wrote: ↑

May 24, 2024

I also think comparing downtown and Clayton is a bit silly. While they both have high rises, and an infuse of workers during the day, they are pretty different. People say Clayton is boring or dead after about 6 like that’s a bad thing. I don’t think it is a bad thing. It’s not an entertainment district and I don’t think has much interest in being one. It’s surrounded by single family homes on almost all sides of a fairly small business district. I’d guess most people want it to be quiet and “boring/dead” at night. Enough restaurants for lunch,  happy hour, and dinner, with a couple later open spots for the people who do want to stay out late whether that be hotel guests or residents.

Downtown can be the all hours of the day place that has entertainment and sports. That’s not Clayton’s thing nor should it really be their thing.

Well excuse me, but as someone required to spend 10-12 hours a day in Clayton, it would be nice if there were something to do or cultural amenities offered.

I’m not sure what you are wanting them to add. I’m just telling you what it is. Clayton isn’t and likely won’t be an entertainment district. They will have events from time to time (parties in the park, art and wine fair, etc,) but I can’t see them putting in something that is going to bring in large crowds regularly. I think at one point there was talk of a jazz club, which if I recall got a bunch of pushback for noise concerns, maybe you get something like that but I would imagine that is the extent of it.

As someone who can easily walk into downtown Clayton that’s fine. I can go to the loop, downtown, midtown if I want to do something more entertainment based. Clayton is good to take the kids to the park, do a happy hour, go to dinner, or catch the metro into town to go to a game. I’m not sure it really needs to be more than that.

Although my wife really would like it to get an ice cream place, besides gelato at pastaria.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

May 24, 2024

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Just because there are options, doesn’t mean they are good.

Capital is not good.

Tony’s is stuck in the past. It’s the restaurant your grandpa still thinks is the best in town because his mind never left the 70s.

The 801s are solid, but are we really hanging our hat on a chain steak and seafood restaurants?

Herbies is bad.

Napoli is overpriced for what it is and the company is trash.

Louie’s is another forgettable, overpriced chain that has lost its luster.

Oceano bistro is fine.

Fields doesn’t exist anymore and it was gross.

J Mcgraugh’s is fine but also not in really in DT Clayton.

Mannnn.... nobody giving any love in this forum for CJ Mugg's.. the "Cheers" of Clayton.  Cj's is a solid all-day/late night asset that has held its own for years. Also, another great spot forgotten about here is il Palato, owned by Mike DelPietro. Quality, tasty and far more approachable than Tony's could ever be. 

Other than those two, places that also punch above their weight are Cafe Manhattan and The Crossing. There are just so many great choices in Downtown Clayton. I echo the previous statement about there not really being a comparison between Claytons CBD and downtown St Louis. They're not even remotely the same beast. And that's ok. Variety is good. Not every district needs to be tinged with downtown St Louis culture and vibe. 

Other sentiment to echo: Herbie's indeed sucks. Downhill for years. Awful food. I'm amazed it survives honestly. It was better off in the CWE. 

Anybody can argue about whether one restaurant or another is good, bad or indifferent. People's tastes are eclectic and experiences differ. I have generally liked Herbie's but CJ Muggs only marginally. Just my opinion, not right or wrong. I also love Cafe Manhattan and have never been to The Crossing. I don't like sushi so I didn't include the sushi places. I've also never eaten at Tony's but have enjoyed happy hour at the bar, Anthony's, which always used to be my go-to spot before a Cards game when it was Downtown. My list was certainly not meant to be comprehensive at all, just a sampling of a few that came to mind in about a ten second post as a rebuttal to the idea that there is practically nothing in Downtown Clayton. 

We order take out from house of Wong, tropical smoothie, sauce on the side and Rearn Thai on the reg. 5 star burgers has great beer selection and great burgers. Good spots to take kids to. We are regulars at Manhattan Cafe. Oceano we haven’t been to in years but are going next week. They used to have an incredible happy hour. We love Almonds too.
You can’t beat Half and Half and Original Pancake house for breakfast.

moorlander wrote: ↑

May 28, 2024

We order take out from house of Wong, tropical smoothie, sauce on the side and Rearn Thai on the reg. 5 star burgers has great beer selection and great burgers. Good spots to take kids to. We are regulars at Manhattan Cafe. Oceano we haven’t been to in years but are going next week. They used to have an incredible happy hour. We love Almonds too.
You can’t beat Half and Half and Original Pancake house for breakfast.

ooOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOoooo Original Pancake House is err'ythingggg. Yesssss.... I'm so grateful for the lifehack of the rear counter, to avoid those wait lines. 

dbInSouthCity wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote:
Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”.  I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

I’m sure self service and drinking establishments are showing similar levels of growth. I’m merely pointing out that Clayton’s restaurant spend is pretty strong compared to DT STL, relative to geographic size. Plus, DT STL’s growth rate is high in large part due to the lackluster growth numbers in the years prior to 2019.


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do you have data for that claim (i do) about lackluster growth or just talking out of your ass?

I’ve seen showing DT St Louis before 2019, but I can’t find it. If you have data showing DT STL vs DT Clayton full service restaurant spending from ‘16-‘19, I’d love to see it.

Could this site serve as the new County Government Center, or do they already have one in mind?  

I thought the parking lot across from the current one was the presumed site.

Dead in it's current form but still a prime intersection with a lot of interest.

They need to do something. Having all the storefronts vacant and not likely to get anyone to commit when they could get kicked out at the end of the lease probably means they stay vacant until a plan comes.

Still vacant

Not good for a town in the red starved for sales taxes

Just up the street, the DGX has announced it is closing and that all goods in the store are 50% off. 

Is downtown Clayton in a doom loop?

That DGX store is part of a larger wave of closings for DG. They are also converting most of their “concept” stores to traditional Dollar Generals. Unclear of what will happen to this DGX after it closes, though I can’t imagine a more traditional Dollar General in Clayton.

DGX downtown still going?

Auggie wrote:DGX downtown still going?

No confirmation yet on that store, but I’m pretty confident it’s going to close as a part of this change in corporate strategy.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

7:20 PM - Mar 18

Auggie wrote:DGX downtown still going?

No confirmation yet on that store, but I’m pretty confident it’s going to close as a part of this change in corporate strategy.

I've never been inside but whenever I walk past it always seems like there's a decent amount of people around it and inside it. Ideally a different convenience store chain would replace it.

Edit: I'm referring to the downtown one. I've never been to or walked past the Clayton one.