Apologize if this is a wrong thread but please feel free to move it to appropriate forum and please tag me.

I have been living in the city (Skinker DeBaliviere neighborhood) for over a decade. Off late something is bothering me and thought I could share on this forum.

Following things have gone up recently because I am living in the city.

1.  auto insurance has gone up by 40%
2. condo insurance premium has gone up by 15%
3. paying city earnings tax
4. HOA has gone up by 40% over a period of two years (yes, I live in a condo where member buildings are built in 1920 and are due for major repairs and wear and tear)

What is the incentive for me to live in the City? I am honestly interested in hearing your opinions.

stlurbanist wrote:Apologize if this is a wrong thread but please feel free to move it to appropriate forum and please tag me.

I have been living in the city (Skinker DeBaliviere neighborhood) for over a decade. Off late something is bothering me and thought I could share on this forum.

Following things have gone up recently because I am living in the city.

1.  auto insurance has gone up by 40%
2. condo insurance premium has gone up by 15%
3. paying city earnings tax
4. HOA has gone up by 40% over a period of two years (yes, I live in a condo where member buildings are built in 1920 and are due for major repairs and wear and tear)

What is the incentive for me to live in the City? I am honestly interested in hearing your opinions.

I’m in the literal exact same situation as you except I pay homeowners insurance instead. My answer probably won’t help you much, but my wife and I have come to the conclusion that unless things drastically change in this region we will be leaving. To be more specific on the type of leaving though is we intend to leave Missouri entirely. We have compared cost of living and quality of living versus a variety of nearby states and don’t understand why we would personally stay much longer than 5 more years. We are incredibly early in our careers and young so this is very easy to do for us. I do not know if the same could be said for you.

Happy to honestly engage.  My first feedback is I'm not sure what #1 or #2 specifically have to do with the city?  Is there reason to believe that the reasons these things went up was because of the city? My auto-insurance went up 100% in like 5 years and then I changed providers and was below my original premium and now that's going up again.  I live in the suburbs.

#4 doesn't really feel specific to the city either? If this was Minneapolis would the HOA have gone up 40% because of wear & tear?  It sounds like that answer is yes, right? So I'm not sure what the city should be doing about that...

I think its a great question, that people like Greater STL should be making sure we have good answers on, but I dont know if your starting point is where I would start as "City issues"

I personally don't believe I've seen anywhere near the same rise in rates while living in the city. 

Just be happy you can still get insurance….unlike Florida. None of these are STL specific. Even earnings tax, which is on the low side compared to other places that have it

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Happy to honestly engage.  My first feedback is I'm not sure what #1 or #2 specifically have to do with the city?  Is there reason to believe that the reasons these things went up was because of the city? My auto-insurance went up 100% in like 5 years and then I changed providers and was below my original premium and now that's going up again.  I live in the suburbs.

#4 doesn't really feel specific to the city either? If this was Minneapolis would the HOA have gone up 40% because of wear & tear?  It sounds like that answer is yes, right? So I'm not sure what the city should be doing about that...

I think its a great question, that people like Greater STL should be making sure we have good answers on, but I dont know if your starting point is where I would start as "City issues"

#1 Auto insurance increased due to increased claims in the neighborhood.
#2 As City is trying to invest in the region, it should also focus on neighborhoods that are seeing decent growth besides just focusing on areas that require TLC. I think I had a choice to move but stayed because of the urban appeal. Of course, it was a personal choice but City should provide incentives to home and condo owners in the City. My property taxes have gone up by 10% but the resale value has decreased by 10%.

I don’t live in the City and my auto insurance skyrocketed.

In Tampa, professionals in their 30s and 40s are getting roommates like it's NYC or SF or something. It's getting out of hand. I sold my property here last year and have been considering a move back to St. Louis. You can still get a reasonably priced home in St. Louis, in many of these boomtowns it has basically become unaffordable with diminishing quality of life (low paying jobs, standstill traffic, increased crime, ruder people etc.). St. Louis has a lot of problems, but affordability is not even top 10. 

stlurbanist wrote:What is the incentive for me to live in the City? I am honestly interested in hearing your opinions.

Take my comments as a grain of salt (since I moved away), but let me be real.

For the price, the City of St. Louis has incredibly high value. A neighborhood comparable to Skinker Debaliviere in any "hot" city is going to run significantly more expensive and yet still might not have access to the best urban park in the country, light rail, an entertainment/dining district (The Loop), and still feel "secluded" in a way. 

For the convenience, St. Louis is well connected to the rest of the region, Midwest and Country thanks to the highways, Amtrak, and the airport. Other cities are similar on this front, but St. Louis has less overall traffic than some of the other cities. 

Culture wise, of all the cities I've been to, St. Louis rivals any of the big ones (New York, DC, Boston, Miami, Chicago) in terms of different cultures melting together to form a unique offering. Where I currently live (Kansas City) we don't have that mashing beyond the Latino community. St. Louis has Latinos, Bosnians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Indian, and Black cultures all blending together nicely.

For those with young families, St. Louis has some great schools (Pre-K on up to College). It doesn't matter if you send your kid to a public school, charter school, or private school, they're sure to get a great education that prepares them for the future. Other cities can have the same things, but STL's schools tend to be far more affordable than any other city.

If you're an architecture nerd, St. Louis has it all and while a large chunk of the city has been leveled over the years, a good amount remains and adds to the aesthetic side of the argument. 

On the job side of things, St. Louis has many employers on the Fortune list. The region has other businesses that are steadily growing. Together, you can have a high-paying job in multiple sectors, allowing you to live comfortably in a way that's simply not possible in most other places.

Insurance rates, home owners association fees (which I think are a scam controlled by Karens), condo tax, and earnings taxes aside, St. Louis is a great city, but it does have its downsides.

The unresponsive 911 system leads many to just not call the police when there's an issue taking place. Because if you're placed on hold on a continual basis, and you hear from friends, family and strangers that they're also been placed on hold for extended periods of time, why even call? And when you do get through and the operator can dispatch a police officer, how long will that take? There are, on occasion, just 2 or 3 officers per police district on the Southside. This is also why auto insurance rates could've gone up. Alongside inflation, living in a city where car accidents sky rocket, well-documented lawlessness occurs, and no true traffic enforcement taking place will increase your auto insurance rates. But I'll admit, this is becoming an issue in a lot of other places, but the City of St. Louis has the short end of the stick. Overall crime may be "down" in the City, but I feel the reason for that is because people are fed up with trying to report it because of being put on hold. Homicides are thankfully down though thanks to the bloody past few years where criminals went to town on each other. Other crimes might start trending truly down now that Gabe Gore is in charge of the Circuit Attorneys Office.

Another downside is the City's infrastructure backlog. Let's face it, the roads, bridges and sidewalks are in varying stages of disrepair. The City simply doesn't have the tax revenue to repair them as they'd like, which brings down the appearance of many parts of the city (in my view). The lack of a large tax-base then leads to worsening public services, like trash pick up and park maintenance.

At the end of the day, take my comments as a grain of salt. I still see the beauty in St. Louis and I'm sure others do as well. Moving away would be, in my opinion, a regretful decision unless you're just entirely done with St. Louis. There are examples of UrbanSTL members moving away and regretting it (and I hope they comment on this topic). 

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

stlurbanist wrote:What is the incentive for me to live in the City? I am honestly interested in hearing your opinions.

The unresponsive 911 system leads  

thats no longer and issue and hasnt been since July when 19 new dispatchers were hired. 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

stlurbanist wrote:What is the incentive for me to live in the City? I am honestly interested in hearing your opinions.

The unresponsive 911 system leads  

thats no longer and issue and hasnt been since July when 19 new dispatchers were hired. 

Perhaps, but personal experience says otherwise. When I visited town back in July, I witnessed an assault and called 911. Was placed on hold for 10 minutes and gave up trying to get a cop there since by that point, the suspect was gone. I instead was transferred to Fire and EMT because the victim was on the ground bloody and unconscious. It was an embarrassment. If the hiring occurred after July 27th, then maybe things are different now.

Resale value decreased by 10%?  That's really contrary to the narrative, especially in an attractive neighborhood like Skinker-DeBaliviere.  How do you know the resale value of your house went down? This makes me curious that maybe the crazy housing prices are only occurring in small areas of the city (here's looking at you TGS).

Maybe you can appeal your property tax increase.

Thank you all for your suggestions and opinions. 

Sorry, did not mean to offend anyone nor wanted to be debbie downer about city living. 

I am distraught about whole condo situation and the benefits of investing in it.

stlurbanist wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Happy to honestly engage.  My first feedback is I'm not sure what #1 or #2 specifically have to do with the city?  Is there reason to believe that the reasons these things went up was because of the city? My auto-insurance went up 100% in like 5 years and then I changed providers and was below my original premium and now that's going up again.  I live in the suburbs.

#4 doesn't really feel specific to the city either? If this was Minneapolis would the HOA have gone up 40% because of wear & tear?  It sounds like that answer is yes, right? So I'm not sure what the city should be doing about that...

I think its a great question, that people like Greater STL should be making sure we have good answers on, but I dont know if your starting point is where I would start as "City issues"

#1 Auto insurance increased due to increased claims in the neighborhood.
#2 As City is trying to invest in the region, it should also focus on neighborhoods that are seeing decent growth besides just focusing on areas that require TLC. I think I had a choice to move but stayed because of the urban appeal. Of course, it was a personal choice but City should provide incentives to home and condo owners in the City. My property taxes have gone up by 10% but the resale value has decreased by 10%.

#1 - Okay!  The whole country had a Kia/Hyundai (?) problem in 2021 and 2022, so doesn't surprise me that individual neighborhood claims went up.  40% still doesn't feel like a lot to me over a decade? Feels like less than inflation? Have you tried repricing with another provider?
#2 - I know nothing about Condo insurance premiums. 15% also doesn't totally seem like a problem to me and feels like a good answer would be to get a quote from another company. The insurance premium is up specifically because you live in the city?  If you were in Clayton there wouldn't have been a premium increase? 

Don't forget high sales tax!  I've been preaching for years that St. Louis isn't as cheap as people think it is.

One of the highest sales tax in the country, 1% earnings tax, 1% higher state income tax than IL, personal property tax (which only about 1/2 the states have), and the car insurance is no joke either, we saved significant amounts of $ when moving just outside the city limits.  

Housing - when you factor in a semi-desirable home in a semi-desirable location it's really on par with every other city/metro (with the usual exceptions, of course), I know a lot of places cheaper than a comparable home in in the STL metro.

I absolutely love it here, but the region needs to get off it's obsession with being cheap, as it is relative, and I actually view it as a negative.

This maybe doesn't matter for renters or DINKS, but the City (or at least the parts I've lived in) fosters a sense of community that you will absolutely not find in the land of stripmalls and subdivisions (aka the 'burbs, and of course there are exceptions). Its hard to put a monetary value on this factor for people who value this intangible benefit over the material comforts of more square footage and better public schools.

In the bigger picture, Cities (including St. Louis) have been around since humans transitioned from hunt/gathering to farming, and will continue to exist indefinitely barring total civilizational collapse. Suburbs, on the other hand, are completely new and unprecedented historically, and are only viable with cheap energy and cheap financing. Ask yourself how long you expect either to be available and that's how long the "advantages" of the 'burbs will remain relevant.

I don’t understand the issue with the earnings tax (other than it technically being a regressive tax). It’s small and is the reason the city has healthy finances unlike Clayton, the County and and most of its munis which are broke as hell

Several of my friends complain about the city earnings tax, but were clueless that was are NOT the only city with this tax, and when they learn some are up to 4% they tend to go quiet.

https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... -taxes.cfm

City has a summary of local income tax by other states

Sorry about earnings tax and other ramblings.

Pandemic has thrown a curveball. Prior to pandemic, living in the suburbs did not make sense due to long commute but now that most of us are in hybrid schedule, I have second thoughts about not giving suburbs a serious consideration. I cannot afford house in clayton or ladue or for that matter a mansion in CWE but would prefer good school district for resale value and condo was our last option as we did not like paying rent.

I am sure I am digressing from my initial post but at least I could have gotten away with some of those big ticket items.

That being said, I love shorter commutes, ability to hop on metrolink for work and leisure, free amenities around the city, 

I appreciate all the folks who are chiming in. It is really enlightening to see all the different perspectives and individual preferences. Please keep them coming...

^How closely is resale value linked to school district? I get the school district thing if you have kids and don't want to do the Private/charter/magnet school hokey pokey common to families in the City. But I've never heard or seen evidence of City real estate values changing more/less than suburban real estate as correlative with school district reputation. 

I understand the need to compare costs/benefits of places to live, but at bottom what really matters is your values:

If you primarily value urban community and amenities, and don't mind the perceived crime risk or care about school issues, then City is probably for you and you can figure out how to make it work financially. 

If you value a larger home/property and the perceived safety of the county, and/or have school age kids and don't want to pay tuition, and you don't mind the isolation and being dependent on your car for everything, then the 'burbs are probably for you and you can figure out how to make it work financially.

Kind of an odd thread for an urban forum.

And homes in city neighborhoods like Skinker-DeBaliviere certainly have been keeping up their values as a rule. (But of course there are exceptions for individual properties that haven't been kept up.) At the end of the day, Skinker-DeBaliviere remains a great neighborhood where you can buy anything from a small condo in the $100Ks to large mansions for $2M+. It neighbors one of the greatest urban parks in North America and offers so much of what makes urban living appealing to so many.