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Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

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PostJun 17, 2008#1


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PostJun 17, 2008#2

While I definately see a trend back to the cities, I definately wouldn't call it "the death of suburbia".

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PostJun 17, 2008#3

Yeah, I read that article on CNN too. I also feel with rising gas prices, and a hopeful expansion of public transportation (North/South Metrolink, etc) people will, over time, begin to move back to areas where services are closer to thier homes. Does this mean, however, that cities will have new residential construction, over the next decade, that resembles suburbia or will people take smaller square footage for the change to be closer to things? Will new construction be things like Ball Park Village and the Brown Shoe development in Clayton, where there will be residential and commercial next to each other and could possibly be thier own little communities, or will the new construction be like the Roberts Mayfair Tower, where it is mainly a residential building and residents will have to go elsewhere for certain services?

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PostJun 17, 2008#4

^ I think you'll see a lot of the new residential development mimic urban development like New Town or similar. People say they want a hip, urban lifestyle, and it's true to a degree, but they also want a place to park a car, a nice park to walk around, and most importantly, a safe place to live. Lots of inner-urban areas being converted are places where people never really lived previously (Wash Ave a prime example), so there's only a moderate stigma of danger attached. Really notorious areas though, aren't likely to see gentrification any time soon.



Also, new construction comes with it more of the modern conveniences and styles, which lots of people like. No radiators or box units here. The conversion trend will continue for sure, but when the market picks back up, it'll be redevelopment of suburban areas that will be the new trend.

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PostJun 17, 2008#5

Interesting responses to this article over at fark.com



http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comment ... nk=3674807

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PostJun 17, 2008#6

Another article along these lines:


Suburbs a Mile Too Far for Some

Demographic Changes, High Gasoline Prices

May Hasten Demand for Urban Living

By JONATHAN KARP

June 17, 2008; Page A18



Pasadena, Calif.



Abandoning grueling freeway commutes and the ennui of San Fernando Valley suburbs, Mike Boseman recently found residential refuge in this Southern California city. His apartment building straddles a light-rail line, which the 25-year-old insurance agent rides to and from work in Los Angeles.



Richard Wells is more than a generation older but was similarly attracted to the Pasadena apartment building. The British-born scientist retains what he calls a European preference for public transportation despite his nearly 30 years in California. Plus, he said, the building's location means, "I can walk to a hundred restaurants, the Pasadena symphony and movie theaters."



Messrs. Boseman and Wells embody trends that are dovetailing to potentially reshape a half-century-long pattern of how and where Americans live: The driveable suburb -- that bedrock of post-World War II society -- is for many a mile too far.


Link

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PostJun 17, 2008#7

New Urbanism is still a joke. Where are employers located? Downtown, Clayton, or in an office park like Earth City. They are not in New Town, nor is New Town connected to Regional Transit. It is still sprawl and a failure.

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PostJun 17, 2008#8

Doug wrote:New Urbanism is still a joke. Where are employers located? Downtown, Clayton, or in an office park like Earth City. They are not in New Town, nor is New Town connected to Regional Transit. It is still sprawl and a failure.


You have a point, to some degree, but I'm not sure I'd call it a failure. While there's still a lot of suburban/exurban style commuting to work, New Town still allows for a resident's recreational time to be spent in a very walkable community, which can add to your quality of life. You could live in Wentzville and drive 20 miles each way to work, 10 miles to get an ice cream cone and 5 miles to a decent park or you could live in New Town and drive 20 miles to work and walk a few blocks to the park and ice cream.



My Dad has recently become disabled, was forced to retire and can no longer drive. My parents are now planning to move to New Town so that he'll have things to do within walking distance during the day while my Mom is at work. He's always lived in the country or suburbs and given his condition, the City's not a good fit (he has a hard time reading and remembering directions). For him, New Town is going to make a huge difference in his quality of life. He's very excited about even being able to walk to a store and pick up a few groceries. Don't underestimate New Urbanism!

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PostJun 17, 2008#9

America's suburban dream has always been a nightmare, now people are just stuck in it.

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PostJun 18, 2008#10

Bring on the arcologies baby!!!!



Having one big structure that can suport farming, lots of living space, its own power plant. Things like this have always been a fantasy of scientists. To try and build a succesful, sustainable environment for a large number of humans.



I hate to sound like a crazy Trekie here, but this is a defininte possibility for the future that I think will get more attantion now with rising energy costs. I remember the History Channel, a few years ago, having a show about the japanese possibly building an arcology in Tokyo. A place where you can be born, grow up, get an education, retire, and die all without even stepping out into the oustide world.



Sounds crazy, but this might be one of society's attempts to answer the problems we're having right now

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PostJun 18, 2008#11

/Just remember the more people that flock to a city

//the bigger the target when the nukes start to fly

\\\Realy, who do you think will get hit 1st, New York, or the Boonies?

\\owns 300 acres of land, stay off my damn LAWN!!


That's got to be my favorite one from Dweebe's link, I cracked up when I read that.



But I have to agree with the person who posted from St. Peters saying that there's two type of suburbs, those that sprang up as suburbs and those that use to be towns that got overrun by sprawl (almost every suburb on this side of the river is the latter). Just wish people would keep that in mind more and not lump all suburbs together as sprawl. But, what can you do.



But, I read an article in a magazine last year (Forbes?) that said while this trend is happening the majority of growth is still happening in the suburbs. I wonder if the suburb talked about in the article is suffering because people left for the city or left for farther out suburbs? As I said before, this trend is a start to curbing the problem of sprawl, but I don't expect the suburbs to die off anytime soon.

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PostJun 18, 2008#12

Shimmy wrote:
/Just remember the more people that flock to a city

//the bigger the target when the nukes start to fly

\\\Realy, who do you think will get hit 1st, New York, or the Boonies?

\\owns 300 acres of land, stay off my damn LAWN!!


That's got to be my favorite one from Dweebe's link, I cracked up when I read that.



But I have to agree with the person who posted from St. Peters saying that there's two type of suburbs, those that sprang up as suburbs and those that use to be towns that got overrun by sprawl (almost every suburb on this side of the river is the latter). Just wish people would keep that in mind more and not lump all suburbs together as sprawl. But, what can you do.


It's amazing how many people live their lives in constant fear of just about everything.



You make a good point about suburbs - I think we in St. Louis may know better than most people that not all suburbs are bad, since we have so many great inner-ring suburbs that, due to STL's small size, would still be within the city limits in most other cities. Flood plain/exurban development, on the other hand, is another story.



The burb I live in is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it is close to other areas - namely, Kirkwood and Webster - that are outstanding. Downtown Kirkwood is so lively, especially this time of year, and people are out walking, shopping, socializing, etc. all over.



What I really hate about my new house is cutting the grass. Big yards (and mine's not even that big) are way overrated.

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PostJun 18, 2008#13

It is all about where employers are. If employers were not located in places like Earth City, Creve Coeur, Westport and Chesterfield, the city would have a chance for a true population boom. With gas prices so high, many people would move back to the city, IF THERE WERE MORE COMPANIES LOCATED THERE. More business will bring more residents. . I think that many would rather spend money on private schools for their kids instead of gas. The trade off makes sense, if their job is in the city. Unfortunately, many companies have moved out of the city.

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PostJun 18, 2008#14

That article made some good points, but some of her predictions are rather humorous. I think it's safe to say that some of her ideas are VERY "out there."

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PostJun 25, 2008#15

A similar article from the NY Times that seems pretty balanced.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/busin ... ref=slogin


June 25, 2008

Rethinking the Country Life as Energy Costs Rise

By PETER S. GOODMAN

ELIZABETH, Colo. — Suddenly, the economics of American suburban life are under assault as skyrocketing energy prices inflate the costs of reaching, heating and cooling homes on the distant edges of metropolitan areas.



Just off Singing Hills Road, in one of hundreds of two-story homes dotting a former cattle ranch beyond the southern fringes of Denver, Phil Boyle and his family openly wonder if they will have to move close to town to get some relief.



They still revel in the space and quiet that has drawn a steady exodus from American cities toward places like this for more than half a century. Their living room ceiling soars two stories high. A swing-set sways in the breeze in their backyard. Their wrap-around porch looks out over the flat scrub of the high plains to the snow-capped peaks of the Rocky Mountains.



But life on the edges of suburbia is beginning to feel untenable. Mr. Boyle and his wife must drive nearly an hour to their jobs in the high-tech corridor of southern Denver. With gasoline at more than $4 a gallon, Mr. Boyle recently paid $121 to fill his pickup truck with diesel fuel. In March, the last time he filled his propane tank to heat his spacious house, he paid $566, more than twice the price of 5 years ago.



Though Mr. Boyle finds city life unappealing, it is now up for reconsideration.



“Living closer in, in a smaller space, where you don’t have that commute,” he said. “It’s definitely something we talk about. Before it was ‘we spend too much time driving.’ Now, it’s ‘we spend too much time and money driving.’ ”



continues...



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PostJun 25, 2008#16

Here's another take on the issue, this time from the International Herald Tribune.


Life on the fringes of U.S. suburbia becomes untenable with rising gas costs

By Peter S. Goodman



Tuesday, June 24, 2008

ELIZABETH, Colorado: Suddenly, the economics of American suburban life are under assault as skyrocketing energy prices inflate the costs of reaching, heating and cooling homes on the outer edges of metropolitan areas.



Just off Singing Hills Road, in one of hundreds of two-story homes dotting a former cattle ranch beyond the southern fringes of Denver, Phil Boyle and his family openly wonder if they will have to move close to town to get some relief.



They still revel in the space and quiet that has drawn a steady exodus from U.S. cities toward places like this for more than half a century. Their living room ceiling soars two stories high. A swing-set sways in the breeze in their backyard. Their wrap-around porch looks out over the flat scrub of the high plains to the snow-capped peaks of the Rocky Mountains.



But life on the distant fringes of suburbia is beginning to feel untenable. Boyle and his wife must drive nearly an hour to their jobs in the high-tech corridor of southern Denver. With gasoline at more than $4 a gallon, Boyle recently paid $121 to fill his pickup truck with diesel. The price of propane to heat their spacious house has more than doubled in recent years.



Though Boyle finds city life unappealing, it's now up for reconsideration.



"Living closer in, in a smaller space, where you don't have that commute," he said. "It's definitely something we talk about. Before it was, 'We spend too much time driving.' Now, it's, 'We spend too much time and money driving."'



As the realization takes hold that rising energy prices are less a momentary blip than a restructuring with lasting consequences, the high cost of fuel is threatening to slow the decades-old migration away from cities, while exacerbating the housing downturn by diminishing the appeal of larger homes set far from urban jobs.



In Atlanta, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Minneapolis, homes beyond the urban core have been falling in value faster than those within, according to analysis by Moody's Economy.com.



In Denver, housing prices in the urban core rose steadily from 2003 until late last year compared with previous years, before dipping nearly 5 percent in the past three months of last year, according to Economy.com. But house prices in the suburbs began falling earlier, in the middle of 2006, and then accelerated, dropping by 7 percent the past three months of the year.



Many factors have propelled the unraveling of U.S. real estate, from the mortgage crisis to a staggering excess of home construction, making it hard to pinpoint the impact of any single force. But economists and real estate agents are growing convinced that the rising cost of energy is a primary factor pushing home prices down in the suburbs - particularly in the outer rings.



More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.



Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.



"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.



Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.



"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."



In a recent study, Cortright found that house prices in the urban centers of Chicago, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Portland and Tampa have fared significantly better than those in the suburbs. So-called exurbs - communities sprouting on the distant edges of metropolitan areas - have suffered worst of all, Cortright found.



Basic household arithmetic appears to be furthering the trend: In 2003, the average suburban household spent $1,422 a year on gasoline, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. By April of this year - when gas prices were about $3.60 a gallon - the same household was buying gas at a rate of $3,196 a year, more than doubling consumption in dollar terms in less than five years.



In March, Americans drove 11 billion fewer miles on public roads than in the same month the previous year, a 4.3 percent decrease. It was the sharpest one-month drop since the Federal Highway Administration began keeping records in 1942.



Long before the recent spike in the price of energy, environmentalists decried suburban sprawl as a waste of land, energy, and tax dollars: Governments from Virginia to California have in recent decades lavished resources on building roads and schools for new subdivisions in the outer rings of development while skimping on maintaining facilities closer in. Many governments now focus on reviving their downtowns.



In Denver - a classic American city with snarling freeway traffic across a vast acreage of strip malls, ranch houses and office parks - the city has seen an urban renaissance over the past decade.



A planned $6.1 billion commuter rail system has been going in over the past four years, drawing people downtown without cars, while crystallizing swift sales of densely clustered condos near stations.



Coors Field, the intimate, brick-fronted baseball stadium for the Colorado Rockies, has transformed the surrounding area from a desolate area into trendy Lower Downtown, a neighborhood of restaurants and microbreweries in restored warehouses. Along the Platte River, new condos set on a park strip offer an arresting tableau of glass, steel, and futuristic geometry, attracting throngs of buyers at rising prices.



"This is a city where it's fun to be in the center," said Tim Burleigh, 56, who sold his house in the suburbs and now walks to Rockies games from his downtown condo.



To Denver's Mayor John Hickenlooper, $4 gasoline offers a useful push forward on such plans.



"It can be an accelerator," he said during an interview inside the imposing, column-fronted City Hall. "It's not going to be the dagger in the heart of suburban sprawl, but there's a certain inclination, a certain momentum back toward downtown."



Elizabeth is the archetype of a once-rural community sucked into the orbit of the expanding metropolis, its ranchlands given over to porches, picket fences and two-car garages.



Megan Werner, 39, a mother of three, moved here five years ago from a suburb closer to Denver, where the houses were packed together. She and her husband bought a home set on a 1.5 acre, or 0.61 hectare, lot in the Deer Creek Farm subdivision. The space justified her husband's 40-minute commute.



"We wanted more than a postage stamp," she said, as her 5-year-old daughter walked barefoot across the driveway.



It used to cost her about $30 to fill her Honda minivan with gas. Now, it's more like $50, and she coordinates her trips - shopping in town, combined with dance lessons for her kids. But she has no thoughts of leaving.



"I can open up my door, and my kids can play," Werner said.



For others, though, new math is altering the choice of where to live. Houses are sitting on the market longer than years past. "The pool of buyers is diminishing," said Jace Glick, a realtor with Re/Max Alliance in Parker, next to Elizabeth.



Juanita Johnson and her husband, both retired Denver school teachers, moved here last August, after three decades in the city and a few years in the mountains. They bought a four-bedroom house for $415,000.



Last winter, they spent $3,000 just on propane to heat the place, she said. Suddenly, this seems like a place to flee.



"We'd sell if we could, but we'd lose our shirt," Johnson said. On a recent walk, she counted 15 "For Sale" signs. A similar home nearby is listed below $400,000.



"I was so glad to get out of the city, the pollution the traffic, the crime," she said. Now, the suburbs seem mean. "I wouldn't do this again."
Source: www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/24/business/exurbs.php

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PostJun 25, 2008#17

Life in the city I understand. Life in the suburbs I understand. Life in the country I understand. But I will never understand living in an exurb.

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PostJun 25, 2008#18

Not an attack but isn't Collinsville pretty exurban?

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PostJun 26, 2008#19

It's an intersting blend of economics right now in the US for sure. While gas prices have been rising astronomically, interest rates have been cut dramatically as well, so the pinch on the consumer's wallet is much less than what it could be.



Here, with gas prices approaching $1.70 a liter ($6.80/gallon approx), we've been experiencing RISING interest rates, so consumers are hit double. That is spurning MASSIVE demand for inner-urban living and jobs, so people can avoid high gas prices AND afford to make mortgage payments. In the US, the high gas prices are a nuisance, but not nearly as bad as it could be if there were rising interest rates.



As such, the demand for INNER URBAN homes will still be much lower, IMO, than if interest rates were jumping as well. I still believe that you'll see a push towards inner-suburban style consolidation. The support of public transport though, should start screaming through the roof - but only for large scale, light or heavy rail projects. Improved bus service, I suspect you can forget about (nevermind of course that buses are about as energy intensive as rail and are easier to implement!)

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PostJun 26, 2008#20

Doug wrote:Not an attack but isn't Collinsville pretty exurban?


Depends on you definition of exurban. If your definition is "not touching city limits", then yes, it is exurban. But I can get downtown in 10 minutes. Plus, Collinsville is one of those towns that use to be a town that became a bedroom community as it grew. Drive around downtown Collinsville and it as well as the areas around it feel like any town in Illinois. That goes for most of the towns on this side of the river. Collinsville actually has that small town-urban look at it's core:



When I moved my pictures around on photobucket half of them on the thread got deleted, so this gives me a chance to premiere the new and improved "Another Side of Collinsville" thread. Take a look Doug:



http://urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=5091

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PostJun 26, 2008#21

Doug wrote:Not an attack but isn't Collinsville pretty exurban?


No. Collinsville has a real downtown surrounded by walkable residential neighborhoods. There's been some big-box mischief on the outskirts of town but the core of Collinsville is a classic small town.

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PostJun 26, 2008#22

my knowledge of the Metro East is pretty sketchy, but I would definitely not consider the 3 villes (Collins, Edwards, and Belle) exurban. They are small towns that have been suburbanized to some extent. So in that way they are like St. Charles--and when I say St. Charles I mean the city proper, not Weldon Spring or Dardenne Prairie--now those are exurban!



Also as noted C-ville is closer to downtown than some of the Missouri inner ring suburbs.

I think the only metro east developments that would fall under my definition of exurban would be in Monroe County.

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PostJun 26, 2008#23

southsidepride wrote:
I think the only metro east developments that would fall under my definition of exurban would be in Monroe County.


I play baseball and travelling around to a lot of the small towns in places like Monroe and Clinton counties I'd say that they are still much more country than exurban. Though, unfortunately, they too are now starting to see sprawl.



But southside's interpretation of the Metro East is pretty much spot-on.

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PostJun 27, 2008#24

I just got my first glimpse of Chesterfield Commons...I vomited.

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PostJun 27, 2008#25

When wasn't the outer-suburban and exurban lifestyle a nightmare? Long commutes, high energy expenditures, houses full of crap you can't use (like my parents), craploads of yardwork to do for no reason, inability to get to anything daily quickly, like a grocery store, marginalization of children and the elderly (non-motorists). It was always a nightmare; our nation just has distorted values. People just wanted to get away from everyone who wasn't in their exact income bracket.

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