- 11K
Thank you for providing me an excuse to leave work (I just threw-up).
Now, I'm not really advocating this, but why wouldn't some urban-minded individual torch these homes instead of on South Grand and the old brewery? :smt077
Now, I'm not really advocating this, but why wouldn't some urban-minded individual torch these homes instead of on South Grand and the old brewery? :smt077
Several redevelopment plans have been outlined with the support of Alderman Bosley for the overall rejuvenation of this historic area of North St. Louis. As a part of that plan and with the substantial collaboration of Alderman Bosley, Precision Homes is developing thirty new single family high-quality affordable homes.
Nearly half of the residences in this area are owner occupied and the new homes at Gano Place offer further opportunities to increase that number. Our intention, in cooperation with the North St. Louis Neighborhood Council, is to bring families back to North City.
The neighborhood has already begun its rebirth with a rise in community standards through pride of ownership. This has been achieved under Alderman Bosley's commitment and direction. Close to Highway I-70 and Grand, it is easily accessible to many major commercial and employment centers.
Thank you Freeman Bosley! You are an advocate for the poor and the downtrodden!
IRONIC that they are trying to revitalize an historic area which has lost many of its historic buildings and is replacing them with pure CRAP.
Nearly half of the residences in this area are owner occupied and the new homes at Gano Place offer further opportunities to increase that number. Our intention, in cooperation with the North St. Louis Neighborhood Council, is to bring families back to North City.
The neighborhood has already begun its rebirth with a rise in community standards through pride of ownership. This has been achieved under Alderman Bosley's commitment and direction. Close to Highway I-70 and Grand, it is easily accessible to many major commercial and employment centers.
Thank you Freeman Bosley! You are an advocate for the poor and the downtrodden!
IRONIC that they are trying to revitalize an historic area which has lost many of its historic buildings and is replacing them with pure CRAP.
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economic market
The neighborhood's demographic does not lend itself to better design and masonry materials
The neighborhood's demographic does not lend itself to better design and masonry materials
Yes I realize that yet it simply angers me when his spin is so blatantly offensive.
To say Bosley's agenda is to preserve historical homes is very far from the truth.
To say Bosley's agenda is to preserve historical homes is very far from the truth.
Good architecture does not have to be expensive. Check out the prefab homes offered by Rocio Romero (based out of STL). Inexpensive and unique. Or check out the homes that are being built out of old shipping containers on the west coast. I'd love to see a neighborhood of homes like this.
http://www.rocioromero.com
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/e ... =774231174
http://www.rocioromero.com
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/e ... =774231174
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Those romero homes are blatant rip offs of Lustron homes built back in the 50's and 60's...nice to see they're making a comeback 
why doesn't the city just build the housing? Yes, public housing has a bad connotation, but I've actually lived in public housing here (accidentally I might add), and it was very nice. semi-detached 3 bedroom brick house on a cul-du-sac in the city with a small front yard and about a 30x40 ft back yard - very nice. The go't could charge market rate for rents and still be affordable because those areas of North stl aren't exactly real estate hot spots if the market does turn hot, the city can just sell the buildings to investors, and make a profit off the sale of the property! Everyone wins!
why doesn't the city just build the housing? Yes, public housing has a bad connotation, but I've actually lived in public housing here (accidentally I might add), and it was very nice. semi-detached 3 bedroom brick house on a cul-du-sac in the city with a small front yard and about a 30x40 ft back yard - very nice. The go't could charge market rate for rents and still be affordable because those areas of North stl aren't exactly real estate hot spots if the market does turn hot, the city can just sell the buildings to investors, and make a profit off the sale of the property! Everyone wins!
Gano Place? How about Guano Place? Well, on second thought maybe not so fitting, since bat s---t IS beneficial, whereas this crap would only benefit (seemingly) greedy developers.
Jeez you guys are hard to please! Here's a developer taking the risk to build new homes in a run-down neighborhood, bringing people back into the city, helping to stabilize the Northside, etc. etc. etc. And you just complain that the architecture isn't "urban" enough! Not enough brick! Too "lowbrow"!
Come on, folks. This isn't Clayton or the CWE we're talking about. These are meant to be AFFORDABLE homes for people who want to make a commitment and stay on the Northside. It's easy for us to sit at our computers and complain that we don't like the way a new project looks, but at least these developers are out there BUILDING something. If you think you know how it should be done, then get out there and do it yourself.
And if you take a look around, you'll see that the City is actually made up of lots of differant types and styles of housing. That's the way it always has been, and, IMO, that's the way it should be.
That's the end of my rant. You can all pile on now...
Come on, folks. This isn't Clayton or the CWE we're talking about. These are meant to be AFFORDABLE homes for people who want to make a commitment and stay on the Northside. It's easy for us to sit at our computers and complain that we don't like the way a new project looks, but at least these developers are out there BUILDING something. If you think you know how it should be done, then get out there and do it yourself.
And if you take a look around, you'll see that the City is actually made up of lots of differant types and styles of housing. That's the way it always has been, and, IMO, that's the way it should be.
That's the end of my rant. You can all pile on now...
I don't know...maybe I'm just a dreamer, but do we really have to build entire neighborhoods just for low income earners (or high income for that matter) in the city? How can we achieve diversity if all our neighborhoods are polarized?
The impact on our society in mixing ethnicity as well as income levels would only have a posative effect, IMHO, (and this would include the CWE and Clayton) but I guess this may be too much for some St. Louisans to accept. (They are doing this in Chicago, and it's working... i.e. building good urban infill mixed with old urban rehab to target upper income earners and reserving a portion for mid and low income folks.)
The impact on our society in mixing ethnicity as well as income levels would only have a posative effect, IMHO, (and this would include the CWE and Clayton) but I guess this may be too much for some St. Louisans to accept. (They are doing this in Chicago, and it's working... i.e. building good urban infill mixed with old urban rehab to target upper income earners and reserving a portion for mid and low income folks.)
These developments are a bad idea. Isolating "poor" individuals to one development is a failed experiment. We should integrate affordable housing into our already stable neighborhoods and not build low income housing in our unstable ones. This development will be occupied by poor individuals from the inner ring suburbs and north st. louis. This demographic is not going to stabilize the neighborhood. Until rehabbing occurs along grand and the surrounding area these suburban developments will do nothing for the neighborhood. How will building suburban low quality housing for the poor do anything positive especially when the neighborhood at large is unstable? This is only going to shift individuals out of their older homes into newer ones and I bet the older ones will be torn down as well.... for these style homes.
Middle class individuals must move into these neighborhoods and the existing poor must be moved into quality housing in this neighborhood or another one. Mixed use along Grand would be an excellent idea as there are already existing buildings. Move businesses into the area and rent to the low income demographic up stairs. Promote local minority entrepreneurs by giving them forgivable repair loans, in addition to TIF/tax abatement, if they open a business along grand or mlk. Also, give them tax incentives if they rent one unit to a lower income individual. Establish historical districts and issue the missouri historical tax credit. Rehab buildings around the thoroughfares and sell/rent to the middle class. There are many things which can be done!
If we expect to have any impact in north st. louis there must be widescale rehabbing and newer construction of many styles and across the entire area. Building these isolated neighborhoods for one demographic is not going to have any positive improvement. This is simply a different style of economic segregation. We must attract middle income residents through rehabbing and subsidy, promote business through the same manner, and provide a viable alternative to the poor. This neighborhood only makes the alderman look good on paper while any individual can easily see that little progress is being made.
Middle class individuals must move into these neighborhoods and the existing poor must be moved into quality housing in this neighborhood or another one. Mixed use along Grand would be an excellent idea as there are already existing buildings. Move businesses into the area and rent to the low income demographic up stairs. Promote local minority entrepreneurs by giving them forgivable repair loans, in addition to TIF/tax abatement, if they open a business along grand or mlk. Also, give them tax incentives if they rent one unit to a lower income individual. Establish historical districts and issue the missouri historical tax credit. Rehab buildings around the thoroughfares and sell/rent to the middle class. There are many things which can be done!
If we expect to have any impact in north st. louis there must be widescale rehabbing and newer construction of many styles and across the entire area. Building these isolated neighborhoods for one demographic is not going to have any positive improvement. This is simply a different style of economic segregation. We must attract middle income residents through rehabbing and subsidy, promote business through the same manner, and provide a viable alternative to the poor. This neighborhood only makes the alderman look good on paper while any individual can easily see that little progress is being made.
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new homes in a run-down neighborhood, bringing people back into the city
homes for people who want to make a commitment and stay on the Northside
Framer -
I'm not sure which perceived need these homes are to address? Bringing people back into the city would be great. Are these homes going to do that? If they are meant to keep people on the Northside, where would these people go if they were to leave?
There is a great variety of housing in the city, but there also needs to be standards. It's a balancing act and this time it seems as though the wish for housing of any kind on the North Side has steamrolled any concern for design. There are options available - architects do pro bono work (sometimes), successes in other cities can be utilized. I think most people on here are simply disappointed anytime a not-well-thought-out home is built, whether it's near the Hill, west county or North StL. The great thing about a forum like this is it allows everyone to talk about ideals and their hopes for the city.
Ihnen wrote:If they are meant to keep people on the Northside, where would these people go if they were to leave?
Obvoiusly it looks like these people want to go to some place in Lincoln County named 'Whispering Bluffs' or 'Bluebird Ridge Estates.'
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Middle class individuals must move into these neighborhoods and the existing poor must be moved into quality housing in this neighborhood or another one. Mixed use along Grand would be an excellent idea as there are already existing buildings. Move businesses into the area and rent to the low income demographic up stairs. Promote local minority entrepreneurs by giving them forgivable repair loans, in addition to TIF/tax abatement, if they open a business along grand or mlk. Also, give them tax incentives if they rent one unit to a lower income individual. Establish historical districts and issue the missouri historical tax credit. Rehab buildings around the thoroughfares and sell/rent to the middle class. There are many things which can be done!
Developers develop to make money. They don't build something quality for low income people because it costs them money and they get little in return. People who clamor wanting developers to build low-income housing need to realize that without government involvement (i.e. subsidies), a private developer will hardly ever build multipile low-income housing units. It's not worth their time to build 10 homes in ONSL for $50,000 and selling them for $100,000, with the margins so slim, vs. building 10 much larger houses out in say Wildwood for $500,000 and selling them each for $1m. Now, if people are willing to let government spend taxes to subsidize developers, that's fine, but first lets acknowledge that altruistic developers are few and very far between. Your mention of tax incentives to renters of low-income properties is a good idea, but what's .5% or 1% compared to the tens of thousands it costs to rehab a unit or build one from scratch?
This is minor but it's a major pet peeve - please don't call them forgivable loans, they're grants. I know why they're called what they are, but last I checked, any time gov't gave me money I didn't have to pay back, that's called a grant, not a loan. Just a technical issue, but it drives me crazy!
So you fear that these new home will be bought up by more poor people...who will get the money from where exactly? There's little risk of people moving out of an older home and into a newer one if they can't sell the one they have. If they abandon their old home for these new ones, I'm impressed, since a home is the most valuable asset these people have (assuming they're not making mortgage payments). If anything, these new homes will keep those who were thinking (and able) about leaving the neighborhood in it, since now they have another and better potential choice in housing. These would be those lower-middle class and middle class people so heavily desired in these areas. If anything, these homes are going to help stabilize the neighborhood.
- 10K
Citylover wrote:Gano is the name of a street.
And the last name of the lead singer of the Violent Femmes.
These homes may not be perfect, but we've seen a lot worse.
- 11K
This is minor but it's a major pet peeve - please don't call them forgivable loans, they're grants. I know why they're called what they are, but last I checked, any time gov't gave me money I didn't have to pay back, that's called a grant, not a loan. Just a technical issue, but it drives me crazy!
I thought it was a forgivable loan when there's a penalty assessed for not fulfilling the contract. For example, my wife and I took advantage of the $4,000 from Wash U when we moved into FPSE. This amount isn't a grant, it's forgivable over time ($1,000/yr I believe). If we were to move after one year we would owe back $3,000. Isn't "forgivable loan" the best way to describe this? Also, we pay interest on this amount. Seems like a loan to me.
It is a loan that is forgiven if you live in the house for 5 years. A grant is more like an unconditional gift yet the forgivable loan has conditions.
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I feel so sorry for the gangmembers who may not feel save
in a neighborhood which has family values...and works for an
honest living. "There goes the neighborhood" tjhe Crips and
Bloods must be saying. I hope they don't infiltrate west county
having been driven from their rat's nests along Gano.
in a neighborhood which has family values...and works for an
honest living. "There goes the neighborhood" tjhe Crips and
Bloods must be saying. I hope they don't infiltrate west county
having been driven from their rat's nests along Gano.
The Rocio Romero HOME? looks like my garage...only more
pricey.
pricey.
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don koester wrote:I feel so sorry for the gangmembers who may not feel save
in a neighborhood which has family values...and works for an
honest living. "There goes the neighborhood" the Crips and
Bloods must be saying. I hope they don't infiltrate west county
having been driven from their rat's nests along Gano.
They won't as long as there's no Metrolink line out there!
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Interesting thread, here is my take.
A quality urban home has less to do with the percentage of brick and more with the scale, proportion, detailing and relationship to the street and adjacent buildings. The new all siding homes in New Town at St. Charles are far more urban than these ever will be. It is the decorative veneer of brick that I find most offensive about most new city houses --- either make the entire place brick or make it siding.
The attached garages look like a tacky addition to the houses and create the wide but useless side yards between the houses. This sets up a spacing pattern which is too wide relative to the width of the actual houses. This cheapens the appearance of the street. Pyramid did the same thing at Tucker & Chouteau with houses spaced too far apart.
Furthermore, the houses simply don't have the height of the older buildings, mostly due to cost. Financially we can't overcome this by building taller but we can make sure the houses are placed near the street. Too often these shorter houses are actually placed further back on the lots to give that suburban front lawn with ornamental tree. This is the opposite of what we should do --- move the house closer to the street and it's lack of height will be less of a visual isue.
In areas where large areas are being rebuilt we need to look at live/work units and/or perhaps storefronts with apartments above adjacent to the single family. This an excellent use of the corners and it provides a good mix. The person that rents a small 400sf apartment might buy a house in a few years.
In summary:
• Detatch all garages and move to alley. Creates courtyard type backyard and reduces substantial costs of driveway and extra fencing.
• Narrow the lot widths. This will allow more houses to be constructed in a given area giving a greater return on land development costs and provides greater density to support local retail.
• Move the houses closer to the street & sidewalk to help give the street a feeling of enclosure and help overcome the lack of height on the new construction.
• Lose the tacky brick treatments to the facades.
• Simplify the front facades --- focus on good clean lines rather than bunch of fussy things trying to look fancier than they really are.
• Use dark colored vinyl or other siding with white windows. The contrast looks sharp.
• Windows need to be taller to give a more vertical appearance. Lose the stupid cheap looking muntin dividers that attempt to give that fake colonial look. A simple one over over window will give a better appearance and cost less. Spend savings on wider trim board around window for more substantial appearance.
Upgrades could include darker windows (tan, green, black) and perhaps with 3 vertical panes over one. These might have a lighter siding, but never white siding. Hardi-board siding requires very skilled workers to install and is llikely not possible at these prices. That is OK, using vinyl can be OK provided the right colors are chosen and the details not too overdone.
Good urban design does not need to be more costly ---- it is simpy a matter of approaching the problem from a different perspective.
A quality urban home has less to do with the percentage of brick and more with the scale, proportion, detailing and relationship to the street and adjacent buildings. The new all siding homes in New Town at St. Charles are far more urban than these ever will be. It is the decorative veneer of brick that I find most offensive about most new city houses --- either make the entire place brick or make it siding.
The attached garages look like a tacky addition to the houses and create the wide but useless side yards between the houses. This sets up a spacing pattern which is too wide relative to the width of the actual houses. This cheapens the appearance of the street. Pyramid did the same thing at Tucker & Chouteau with houses spaced too far apart.
Furthermore, the houses simply don't have the height of the older buildings, mostly due to cost. Financially we can't overcome this by building taller but we can make sure the houses are placed near the street. Too often these shorter houses are actually placed further back on the lots to give that suburban front lawn with ornamental tree. This is the opposite of what we should do --- move the house closer to the street and it's lack of height will be less of a visual isue.
In areas where large areas are being rebuilt we need to look at live/work units and/or perhaps storefronts with apartments above adjacent to the single family. This an excellent use of the corners and it provides a good mix. The person that rents a small 400sf apartment might buy a house in a few years.
In summary:
• Detatch all garages and move to alley. Creates courtyard type backyard and reduces substantial costs of driveway and extra fencing.
• Narrow the lot widths. This will allow more houses to be constructed in a given area giving a greater return on land development costs and provides greater density to support local retail.
• Move the houses closer to the street & sidewalk to help give the street a feeling of enclosure and help overcome the lack of height on the new construction.
• Lose the tacky brick treatments to the facades.
• Simplify the front facades --- focus on good clean lines rather than bunch of fussy things trying to look fancier than they really are.
• Use dark colored vinyl or other siding with white windows. The contrast looks sharp.
• Windows need to be taller to give a more vertical appearance. Lose the stupid cheap looking muntin dividers that attempt to give that fake colonial look. A simple one over over window will give a better appearance and cost less. Spend savings on wider trim board around window for more substantial appearance.
Upgrades could include darker windows (tan, green, black) and perhaps with 3 vertical panes over one. These might have a lighter siding, but never white siding. Hardi-board siding requires very skilled workers to install and is llikely not possible at these prices. That is OK, using vinyl can be OK provided the right colors are chosen and the details not too overdone.
Good urban design does not need to be more costly ---- it is simpy a matter of approaching the problem from a different perspective.