Lincoln Co. among nation's fastest growing - STL Biz Journal

yidnamu · PostApr 15, 2005#12005-04-15T15:02+00:00

Link

LATEST NEWS

St. Louis Business Journal - 2:47 PM CDT Thursday

Census: Lincoln County among nation's fastest growing

Lincoln County, Mo., was the 75th fastest-growing county in the United States from April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2004, the U.S. Census Bureau released Thursday.

The rural county northwest of St. Louis had a 17.6 percent growth rate in the four-year period, or an increase of 6,872 people.

It was the only county in the St. Louis metropolitan area to make the fastest-growing list for the four-year period.

smsplanstu · PostApr 15, 2005#22005-04-15T17:08+00:00

The city of Troy is located in Lincoln County. Former residents of St. Charles County are headed out to LC for one reason. Guess what that is?

You guessed right. St. Charles is too diverse for them! I'll let the euphemism stand lest I be attacked.

This in not an assumption, but from the words of Lincoln County residents that I've met at SMS and who do not want the new people ruining their communities.

warwickland · PostSep 26, 2005#32005-09-26T14:47+00:00

my parents live at the northern most edge of the county.

just driving up 61 at the st chuck border, you can tell poor lincoln county is gonna get it bad...

cornbread · PostSep 26, 2005#42005-09-26T20:15+00:00

I'm surprised that beat out St. Charles. I haven't seen too much growth out there. I was actually just out in Troy yesterday, and they are really expanding the "downtown" area, but it still looks the same to me.

jeff · PostSep 27, 2005#52005-09-27T01:16+00:00

I think that these growth numbers are percentages. Therefore, it's much easier for a County with a few thousand to grow by say 100% in 5 years, but it's harder for a county with 100,000 people to grow by 100% in five years. So yes, St. Charles definitely beat Lincoln County in raw numbers, but not as a percent growth.

jcity · PostOct 17, 2005#62005-10-17T03:26+00:00

I still don't get why people think this is GROWTH. I know almost everyone agrees with me in here, but I think some people still don't get it. I'd bet that at least 95% of this growth is people moving from St. Charles or St. Peters further out west. This, to me, is sprawl, not growth. I'm not advocating putting limits on the MSA by any means, but people in these areas proclaim "fastest growing in the region" garbage as if it's a good thing. Again, this region is stagnant, barely growing at 1.2% I'm not sure this is growth. SMSPlanstu has a good point, this "flight" continues today. I'd bet a good amount of money that St. Charles will be the next North County within the next 20 years. Instead of fleeing "diversity", we should be figuring out ways to live together. Look at the Loop, West End, other areas of the city and STL county. This sprawl will continue until we hit Columbia.

james · PostOct 17, 2005#72005-10-17T15:53+00:00

I guess I'm taking the bait.

SMSPlanstu wrote:St. Charles is too diverse for them! I'll let the euphemism stand lest I be attacked.

Come On! Better reasons are:

1) Cheap land = Cheaper larger houses

2) Outlining towns like O'Fallon, Mo offering companies agressive benefits (tax, cheap land, etc...) to companies to move in. I would bet Lincoln County is planning to do the same.

3) As a former employee of "A Large Credit Card Company" who had to commute to O'Fallon after the company moved there. You won't believe the amount of propaganda directed at employees to move there too. The first day we recieved a tour of the town from a city representative. For months local real estate agencies and mortgage companies set up tables near the lunch rooms offering special rates and deals to employees and touting how close the homes are to the new offices.

4) I suspect that companies like it also when their employees move so far out since it locks employees into the company. The employees that moved to O'Fallon to avoid the long commute are not likely to accept other jobs which would again require a long commute back to STL or STL County.

5) Local community leaders doing what they feel best for their community.

6) Local business leaders knowing a greater population means greater business.

7) Some people (believe it not) just love "Living in the Country" and when the suburbs "invade" the country they move farther out to the country. In many ways these people are just as "anti-urban spraw" as those living in communities that suffered losses from urban spraw.

Maybe the City should take a lesson from O'Fallon.

Radical love, acceptance, and forgiveness should also extent to

misguided urban sprawlers who might actually may not be motivated by racism.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 (Sorry for being preaching)

beer city · PostOct 17, 2005#82005-10-17T23:01+00:00

james wrote:7) Some people (believe it not) just love "Living in the Country" and when the suburbs "invade" the country they move farther out to the country. In many ways these people are just as "anti-urban spraw" as those living in communities that suffered losses from urban spraw.

Good point, my best friend's wife grew up in the suburbs and wanted to live "country" so they moved out to Wildwood and live on about 4 acres. The problem is - that is not really "living" country it is just an exurb that becomes the pioner of sprwal - Because she doesn't really want to live "country" where, due to being farther away from everything, you are forced to due things yourself (like resetting well pumps after lightning strikes, or maintaing septic tanks and leech fields) also your human contact factor goes way down, activites for kids outside of 4H are almost unheard of, as are fast food joints. Most people, and most suburbanites who say they love the country DO NOT WANT TO LIVE LIKE THIS,

Point is alot of people move out to live what they think is country, but then they need grocery stores, Wal-Marts, gas stations, Old Navy's and Borders, and those things come and more people follow and then they are all bummed cause they thought they were getting away.

The potential solution is places like New Town, which, due to better design than your typ. tract home subdivision, has been able to provide density in what feels like a place that is closer to the country. (I am not say New Twon is perfect, it does have some flaws that I will not get into)

Problem is people selfishly (I will use that term, for I have seen this first hand) want land for no good reason. Plots under 40 acres are just about useless for anything other than recreation, and quite frankly if you are moving out to recreate, have the good sense to move to Innsbrook or someplace that is designed for it rather than blowing money and resources to produce some vague Disney version of what you think "country" is.

Sorry for the rant but half my family is from the Washington Mo area, which is slowly being ruined by former suburbanites who want to live "country"

warwickland · PostOct 18, 2005#92005-10-18T01:02+00:00

cornbread wrote:I'm surprised that beat out St. Charles. I haven't seen too much growth out there. I was actually just out in Troy yesterday, and they are really expanding the "downtown" area, but it still looks the same to me.

besides the highway 61 corridor and the west side of 79, much of the growth in lincoln county is taking place along the highway 47 corridor between troy and winfield. you dont necessarily "see" it unless you mean by the obvious traffic on 47 in troy.

regardless, city governments and the county are for the most part clueless, much like st. charles county during the 80s, 90s, and by and large, now.

curiously, many of the "first wave" of urban expats into lincoln county during the late 20th century were from the city (of st. louis). sort of a "leapfrog" over st. charles. they were able to buy themselves about 30 years of "peace and quiet" at most. they were few in number, and now consider themselves seperate from the onslaught of st. chuckians, although they truely represent the same phenomenon.

the western and northwestern stl suburbs interest and horrify me, as they especially represent the future of kansas cities eastern suburbs, perhaps due to a similiar geography along and relationship with the I-70 corridor.

brickandmortar · PostOct 18, 2005#102005-10-18T06:05+00:00

hmm, one more place for me to not visit

2taall · PostDec 07, 2005#112005-12-07T03:18+00:00

This Lincoln county is a bunch of BS. That has to be 40 miles or so from downtown St. louis. Like one of the posters said, living out there really isn't "living country". My girlfriend lives country..her family has about 350 acres and the nearest house is a mile a away.

warwickland · PostDec 14, 2005#122005-12-14T02:16+00:00

im not sure what you mean by "BS," though i would agree that urban sprawl is BS. people moving to lincoln county arent moving there to farm, rather, i would suppose they want more house for their money and "elbow room." paradoxically, they then ruin the pastoral environment they seek by their auto-centric presence. if the county was more progressive, perhaps they could see the benefits of developing along the lines of new urbanism while preserving open space and agricutural land. as it stands, troy is too screwed up to even maintain a city planner. my parents live on a farm that has been in the family since 1860 in lincoln county, and is a couple hundred acres. though, they are becoming the exception, not the rule. i'm assuming you think that lincoln county is "BS 'cause it aint country 'enuff." i don't know how to argue with you on that.

doug · PostJan 11, 2006#132006-01-11T16:41+00:00

james wrote:I guess I'm taking the bait.

SMSPlanstu wrote:St. Charles is too diverse for them! I'll let the euphemism stand lest I be attacked.

Come On! Better reasons are:

1) Cheap land = Cheaper larger houses

2) Outlining towns like O'Fallon, Mo offering companies agressive benefits (tax, cheap land, etc...) to companies to move in. I would bet Lincoln County is planning to do the same.

3) As a former employee of "A Large Credit Card Company" who had to commute to O'Fallon after the company moved there. You won't believe the amount of propaganda directed at employees to move there too. The first day we recieved a tour of the town from a city representative. For months local real estate agencies and mortgage companies set up tables near the lunch rooms offering special rates and deals to employees and touting how close the homes are to the new offices.

4) I suspect that companies like it also when their employees move so far out since it locks employees into the company. The employees that moved to O'Fallon to avoid the long commute are not likely to accept other jobs which would again require a long commute back to STL or STL County.

5) Local community leaders doing what they feel best for their community.

6) Local business leaders knowing a greater population means greater business.

7) Some people (believe it not) just love "Living in the Country" and when the suburbs "invade" the country they move farther out to the country. In many ways these people are just as "anti-urban spraw" as those living in communities that suffered losses from urban spraw.

Maybe the City should take a lesson from O'Fallon.

Radical love, acceptance, and forgiveness should also extent to

misguided urban sprawlers who might actually may not be motivated by racism.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 (Sorry for being preaching)

1. Cheap houses=Low quality housing

2. Tax incentives are not the real reason, it is isolated, contained, areas like winghaven where all employees can pratically walk to work. Local taxes are a small consideration in terms of corporate budget.

3. Again, see my number 2.

4. Good point, and this is why the companies need to move to the city instead of the county. There is nothing to do in st. charles county, and weekend activities increase morale.

5. Mastercard will not remain in Winghaven and lets see how the community 'leaders' fare then!

6. Most of this population is their employees, but, yes, more people equals greater market.

7. Yes, but, Mastercard is in the suburbs, not the COUNTRY. They basically destroyed the COUNTRY which was there before, that entire land was farm land; I know because I used to live 2 minutes from Winghaven. Mastercard created a suburban wasteland of cheaply built homes with horrible vinyl siding. There once was horses, cows, and great trees, now, there is a spa, some chain restaraunts, a strip mall, corporate headquaters, and a movie theater. This is very generic and quite ugly. I prefer living in the city, but, I did have great moments in the country when I was younger, and a part of it is destroyed.

The entire community is prefabricated, and once a few companies leave, or a layoff occurs, there is no 'community'. It is a false facade that does not compare to the true community of an urban environment.

If you drive along highway 40, you notice it no longer has any stoplights, yes, and why, so people and fly down and move away from the city, it is sad...

O'Fallon is the antithesis of St. Louis City; neither can learn from each other, except what not to do, since they are opposites.

I agree people need to get along, but, this will not be found in St. Charles... I just graduated the community college and you would not believe the student perception of the city: dangerous, dirty, and full of african americans (not the word used). I thought my generation would be more socially liberal but this is not represented in St. Charles; ignorance can be blamed.

jmedwick · PostJan 11, 2006#142006-01-11T17:16+00:00

Ok stlpcsolutions, I will help clear up a few important errors.

1. Cheap houses=Low quality housing : Nope you are wrong about this, quality and price, while often correlated, are not perfectly maited. Many houses in the city are cheaper than their county counterparts. Does this mean that these houses are of poor quality, or under valued, or simply not demanded? Remeber the biggest determinate of housing price is the quality of the school district, not the quality of the house. (why do ranch homes in Ladue sell for so much more than ranch homes in Spanish Lake)

2. Sadly you miss the idea of community. A community, such as a neighborhood in a city, can be defined by geographic bounderies. But there is more than one type of community. If i am a member of a church, is the congergation I am part of not a comunity? Or say if I live in Ballwin but go to school at SLUH, am I not part of a school community, far distant from my geographic community? It can be extended in many different shapes and ways, therefore it is impossible to say that the city or the urban enviroment have a monopoly on community.

4. As for community disapering once the one company town's one company leaves, well, I feel sorry for you my friend. Community, as I am sure you know, evolves over time from living in close proximity to people. To assume that the people in Winghaven are unable or unwilling to develope a community is arrogant and foolish. While many might call the homes and subdivisons fake or lacking in "character," over time, just as community developes so do the homes, evolving as owners change things, making their house unique. Over time community and charcahter are created, not overnight.

5. It is not true that the two cannot learn for each other. Why, if say Centenne moved its HQ downtown, could the city, or loft rehabers, or real estate companies camp outside the lunch room and advertise city living? Is it really so different? Both municipalities are trying to attract jobs and people. If that tactic was sucessful at Mastercard, could't it work too for adding loft dwellers downtown, or families in North Hampton?[/quote]

PostJan 11, 2006#152006-01-11T17:17+00:00

I will throw out one thing about the emient domain battle. If the new law, with its provision that eminent domain cannot be used to take farm land, takes place, it will be a small step at slowing suburban growth.

doug · PostJan 11, 2006#162006-01-11T17:58+00:00

JMedwick wrote:Ok stlpcsolutions, I will help clear up a few important errors.

1. Cheap houses=Low quality housing : Nope you are wrong about this, quality and price, while often correlated, are not perfectly maited. Many houses in the city are cheaper than their county counterparts. Does this mean that these houses are of poor quality, or under valued, or simply not demanded? Remeber the biggest determinate of housing price is the quality of the school district, not the quality of the house. (why do ranch homes in Ladue sell for so much more than ranch homes in Spanish Lake)

2. Sadly you miss the idea of community. A community, such as a neighborhood in a city, can be defined by geographic bounderies. But there is more than one type of community. If i am a member of a church, is the congergation I am part of not a comunity? Or say if I live in Ballwin but go to school at SLUH, am I not part of a school community, far distant from my geographic community? It can be extended in many different shapes and ways, therefore it is impossible to say that the city or the urban enviroment have a monopoly on community.

4. As for community disapering once the one company town's one company leaves, well, I feel sorry for you my friend. Community, as I am sure you know, evolves over time from living in close proximity to people. To assume that the people in Winghaven are unable or unwilling to develope a community is arrogant and foolish. While many might call the homes and subdivisons fake or lacking in "character," over time, just as community developes so do the homes, evolving as owners change things, making their house unique. Over time community and charcahter are created, not overnight.

5. It is not true that the two cannot learn for each other. Why, if say Centenne moved its HQ downtown, could the city, or loft rehabers, or real estate companies camp outside the lunch room and advertise city living? Is it really so different? Both municipalities are trying to attract jobs and people. If that tactic was sucessful at Mastercard, could't it work too for adding loft dwellers downtown, or families in North Hampton?

1. While I do not want to get into a deep educational discussion, you are right, schools matter, but, the private schools are a main draw in Ladue/Clayton, as well as, the social hierarchy of the residents.

At some point, when prices get too low, quality suffers. There are cheap rentals and housing prices in the city, and they are not low quality, however, when you compare the value of prices in St. Charles to prices in St. Louis, you get a much better house in the city in terms of building materials and historical significance. The houses in St. Charles are of lower quality when compared to the houses in the city, of same price, in general, because the St. Charles houses are build quickly and cheaply, these are subdivisions. Building companies want cheap, mass produced housing with little character, because it maximizes profits for the business, while creating a cheaper price for the resident. I am not saying that this kind of mass production did not occur when some of the city houses were built, but, the physical materials are better quality in the city.

2. The suburban community is largely different from the urban community in that suburban familes want a large amount of privacy and autonomy, this is understandable, however, it is to the point complete isolation from individuals that are different, ie) race isolation. I do not consider this a community in the sense that a community must be diverse to be considered a true community. This is idealistic and many people may disagree with this idea, but, hey, its what I believe.

4. I do not see how a prefabricated community created by a corporation will survive if the company leaves and the jobs are gone. I also do not see any historically significant landmarks/buildings/parks in St. Charles which truely say "This is St. Charles, we are united, we are unique". Basically the only thing keeping the 'community' in solidarity is the corporation, and once it leaves, there is a problem.

5. I was talking about urban planning, construction style, etc. The county is very different in terms of needs when compared to the city, and I do not see how much can be gained in these areas. Also, I am refering to St. Charles County, since there are cost and service benefits if infrastructural and public safety services were merged with St. Louis City.

jmedwick · PostJan 11, 2006#172006-01-11T19:17+00:00

1. Well to be fair, while proximity to private schools is nice in Ladue, there is no garunteee that any Ladue dweller will end up in JBS or MICDS. Thats why you can rent those homes between clayton rd. and the highway, so people can live for 4 or 6 years and go to the high quality Ladue public schools. You are right though, there is a premium to have a 63124 ZIPcode.

As for the price of housing and its quality, it is hard to say that St. Louis city home buyers are getting a better value. While one may argue that the pressboard, wallboard, and vinal sidind of today is not as durable as the wood timbers and brick of yesteryear, such thinking focuses only on the immediate pruchase of a home. I think it is fair to say that when speaking of quality, we are dancing around the issue of maintence costs. And when talking maintence costs, it is not clear that a new home in St. Charles with a life span of 25 years will have any greater maintence costs than a 90 year old home over the medium term (think 10 yeras or so for someone to own a home). In fact, while well built, buying used or older homes, much of the costs may come in the form of maintennce not the upfront housing price. Owning in Laffeyett Square is more costsly beause of the age of the homes. (BTW, a well built house can have no character)

2. True, suburban communites do want perhaps more privacy than do urban dwellers. However, I take disagree tha the isolation from those who are different is a suburban phenomenon. It is common amoung all creeds, colors, types, and nations. Its not jsut a Post 1945 white suburban trend.

While i respect your opinion that a community must be diverse to be a community I must disagree. To me a community is more about the commonality of its members, whether geography, creed, color, or blood, not its differences. Are the members of the Ku Klux Klan, hate filled as it may be, not a community?

4. See historic Pullman in Chicago. Or for something less striking let go with Granite City. Winghaven is part of a metro area, and not all the people who live in the area work in the area, when the jobs leave there are other options, though the community will be hurt.

5. Are the county and the city really so different? THe county want to grow: add jobs, add people, provide a good quality of life. The city wants to do the same. While the course to a good quality of life might be different in each, the adding of jobs and people is fundamentaly the same. From a planning prospective, think site aquisition, a major problem in the city. Also, if St. Charles is attracting Mastercard away from the city, itsn't it a good idea for the city to know and understand why it is losing out and what it can do to be more competitve?

doug · PostJan 11, 2006#182006-01-11T19:44+00:00

JMedwick wrote:1. Well to be fair, while proximity to private schools is nice in Ladue, there is no garunteee that any Ladue dweller will end up in JBS or MICDS. Thats why you can rent those homes between clayton rd. and the highway, so people can live for 4 or 6 years and go to the high quality Ladue public schools. You are right though, there is a premium to have a 63124 ZIPcode.

As for the price of housing and its quality, it is hard to say that St. Louis city home buyers are getting a better value. While one may argue that the pressboard, wallboard, and vinal sidind of today is not as durable as the wood timbers and brick of yesteryear, such thinking focuses only on the immediate pruchase of a home. I think it is fair to say that when speaking of quality, we are dancing around the issue of maintence costs. And when talking maintence costs, it is not clear that a new home in St. Charles with a life span of 25 years will have any greater maintence costs than a 90 year old home over the medium term (think 10 yeras or so for someone to own a home). In fact, while well built, buying used or older homes, much of the costs may come in the form of maintennce not the upfront housing price. Owning in Laffeyett Square is more costsly beause of the age of the homes. (BTW, a well built house can have no character)

2. True, suburban communites do want perhaps more privacy than do urban dwellers. However, I take disagree tha the isolation from those who are different is a suburban phenomenon. It is common amoung all creeds, colors, types, and nations. Its not jsut a Post 1945 white suburban trend.

While i respect your opinion that a community must be diverse to be a community I must disagree. To me a community is more about the commonality of its members, whether geography, creed, color, or blood, not its differences. Are the members of the Ku Klux Klan, hate filled as it may be, not a community?

4. See historic Pullman in Chicago. Or for something less striking let go with Granite City. Winghaven is part of a metro area, and not all the people who live in the area work in the area, when the jobs leave there are other options, though the community will be hurt.

5. Are the county and the city really so different? THe county want to grow: add jobs, add people, provide a good quality of life. The city wants to do the same. While the course to a good quality of life might be different in each, the adding of jobs and people is fundamentaly the same. From a planning prospective, think site aquisition, a major problem in the city. Also, if St. Charles is attracting Mastercard away from the city, itsn't it a good idea for the city to know and understand why it is losing out and what it can do to be more competitve?

1. Yes, there is no guarantee that you will end up at expensive public schools, but, being in an environment where many people attend these schools does have its advantages to certian individuals.

2. Yes, a compelling point, maintance cost. I guess it is perspective, I would not mind the extra cost of fixing up a home for myself, it would be a matter of personal involvement in the home. I suppose when you consider the cost of upkeep, you make a compelling argument.

4. Yes, I agree this is not unique, the Hill is an smaller scale example in St. Louis, however, this isolation is easy to see in the suburbs, at least it is for me, because I was a resident of that area for 20 years. I have never been to Granite City, however, I suspect it is quite like St. Charles on a smaller scale.

Yes, the KKK is a 'community' however it is not a community I would want to be involved in. Heh, we can go back and forth, at least there is a debate.

5. I consider the St. Louis County and St. Louis City similar, in fact, similar enough to merge back together, however, St. Charles is another world; we all remember that they voted down Metrolink for racist reasons. Yes, another good point, St. Louis City can learn from St. Charles County what not to do/what to do in order to attract more business like Mastercard.

My views are biased obviously, possibly from living in St. Charles for so long. Honestly, the sight of vinyl siding, and endless strip malls, may have damaged my emotional responses, therefore, I become ill at the sight of them as in "A Clockwork Orange". What can I say, I loathe St. Charles.

shannon · PostSep 05, 2006#192006-09-05T20:27+00:00

Vinyl Nightmare... Speechless.

http://www.mmcastle.com/fulltour_photos.php

urban elitist · PostSep 05, 2006#202006-09-05T20:39+00:00

^ :smt095 My eyeballs just melted circa Raiders of the Lost Ark.......

MattnSTL · PostSep 05, 2006#212006-09-05T20:43+00:00

Literally everything about that house wants to make me puke. #-o

justme123 · PostSep 05, 2006#222006-09-05T20:49+00:00

shannon wrote:Vinyl Nightmare... Speechless.

http://www.mmcastle.com/fulltour_photos.php

What a weird place. Did you poke around the site at all? What a bizarre hodgepodge.

To each his own, but to me this one screams "Quantity, Not Quality."

steve · PostSep 05, 2006#232006-09-05T20:51+00:00

Yeesh. I love how he calls that thing "Victorian." Where he gets that I have no idea.

tysalpha · PostSep 05, 2006#242006-09-05T23:23+00:00

JustMe123 wrote:
shannon wrote:Vinyl Nightmare... Speechless.

http://www.mmcastle.com/fulltour_photos.php

What a weird place. Did you poke around the site at all? What a bizarre hodgepodge.

To each his own, but to me this one screams "Quantity, Not Quality."

Do they really expect to get nearly $1M for that piece of vinyl vomit? Jeez, not only is the outside out of scale and covered in cheap materials, but the inside seriously lacks any detail or class. This house reminds me of what you see sometimes on MTV's Cribs, where they will show some new rock or hip-hop star who built an oversized house, but the house has the same cheap white 6-panel doors as your average suburban home, a huge closet but everying on plastic hangers, and no decoration.

village idiot · PostSep 06, 2006#252006-09-06T04:10+00:00

All I can say is wow. Not the good kind of wow.